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Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#1581 - 2012-12-29 05:09:32 UTC

masternerdguy wrote:

Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Why in the world would anyone assume the only two options are "carebear in highsec" or "join the CFC" ? Talk about oversimplification. Ugh

The fact that everyone is funneling into two organizations is one of the problems that we're trying to fix in the first place.

If CCP succeeds at actually bringing lowsec and 0.0 to a healthy place, you won't have to be in a massive alliance to be able to experience life in dangerous areas. POS ownership inflexibility is quite obviously a huge part of this problem. Same with extremely limited tools with which to share POS access and resources.

can i take it as CCP will raze up goon and the similar alliances? will take the ability of hotdropping or forming fleets of more then 3 toons? or you will delete all the toons over 20 mill sp? im interested how will you solve the "be our pet or leave nullsec" situation. same with lowsec. how do you want to make it a "healthy place", when a commandship can give over 2k shield for a simple t2 fitted pirate tengu? which casual player will go to lowsec to die for these without any actual chance of winning? you want to make the ghetto attractive and unable to realise, brooklyn will never become paris.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"

thats simply caused by those who cant understand that the 90% of eve community dont want them. actually there is no fair pvp in eve (while nearly every other MMO gives it) so any good you can train your toon and yourself, number and age will always win. many tiny alliance proved they have a lot better strategists and combatants then goon/razor/test stb but they are unable to compete and it seems in eve they will never be able due to number will always beat the brain. thats why those who dont like to be a "gun" pressing f1 in a goonfleet will ever leave the safety zone.

Actually its all perfectly fair PVP since everyone has theoretical access to the same tools.

Also, teamwork is kind of important.

But blues need to be nerfed.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Luanda Heartbreaker

Likes received: 40

#1582 - 2012-12-29 05:23:51 UTC | Edited by: Luanda Heartbreaker

Lovely Dumplings wrote:

Speaking as an explicitly highsec industrial player....highsec needs a nerf. Null needs a boost. You can't nerf high too far, because, CCP does get it's pocket money out of highsec "casual" players.

One simple idea I thought up, is create a new resource in EVE, that can only be found/used in null. Including it as an option makes the resulting module/ship/whathaveyou "better", but only in null. We're talking about a game where people will pay millions of ISK for a 5% increase in hitpoints. I'm sure that'll inspire some industry outside of highsec.

first of all, there is so many stuff in 0.0 there is no access anywhere else... they just have so many afk miners on it, so many botgrinders and so on, that they have ruined their own market and now they cry some new.

lets see... there are minerals and gases you can mine only in null. they grind it day and night. then, instead of using it (witch is the original intention) they bring it into the so hated highsec and sell it. as so many of them do it in their perfectly safe 0.0 empires without any disruption, they make it totally worthless and then they come to the forum and say nerf highsec miners, how its fair that veldspar wort the same as their highend minerals... however, nobody else can compete with them.

or.. they have free 24/7 access to wormholes due to sov upgrades to grind sleeperstuff and bild t3... instead they grind it, bring to empire and sell it for crap, making it totally worthless (and instead of building loki tengu logi fleets they build 400 drake and go to blob with it, cos its easier and cheaper)

and i didnt talk about the gases and boosters they could create freely, the exclusive bpcs and modules they are selling in jita for the so hated higseccers instead of using it for themselves.

this whole chatting is totally nonconstructive and pointless

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#1583 - 2012-12-29 05:24:14 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

mynnna wrote:

I am highly amused that Hans can suggest highsec needs nerfs/tweaks and have it be "well written" or "reassuring", whereas if I or Aryth or Weaselior suggest it, it's met with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Maybe you should go back and actually read what I've been saying, because I've been saying consistently the same exact thing. It's reassuring because Hans has taken a position I've agreed with, not that he's reassuring me that a highsec nerf wouldn't destroy the game as some would claim.

Fair enough - I wasn't necessarily commenting on you specifically so much as the general response to what I've said elsewhere, which was along the lines of what Hans just said, but less...eloquent, I suppose.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Il Feytid

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 5,978

#1584 - 2012-12-29 06:08:27 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

I have been advocating an industrial revamp for years now. Years. Just because I don't agree with someones suggestion on how to fix a problem does in no way indicated that I am in fact saying there is no problem. Perhaps one day you will know the difference. So how about you cut the lying for a bit and join us in coming up with a real solution that not only fixes the problem(s) in an intelligent and meaningful way, but is beneficial to everyone involved in the profession.

Making industry have real meaning in only certain parts of this game is not an option.

SmilingVagrant

Doomheim

Likes received: 2,724

#1585 - 2012-12-29 06:18:14 UTC | Edited by: SmilingVagrant

Tesal wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Did Goons say you could speak? I thought not.

This weird pubbie fascination with the master/pet paradigm that stretches back to the days of Bob yet has absolutely no bearing on how Goonswarm runs things is really weird. Members and allied alliances are pretty much allowed to do whatever the hell they want, there are no red pen CTA's, any alarm clocks are voluntary and we view people calling in sick to play video games because ~something important is happening~ as mentally broken individuals.

Hell Razors baiting of IRC lately downright has me annoyed as they are ******* with the happy hunting grounds. I can't stop them from doing it though.

I've set my alarm clock a grand total of ONE time in my eve career, and it wasn't to wake me up, it was to remind me that I had a newbie class to teach because I have the personal organizational skills of a drugged up cat.

Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#1586 - 2012-12-29 06:29:13 UTC

SmilingVagrant wrote:

What HAVE RZR been up to?

How did the newbie class go?


mynnna State War Academy Caldari State Likes received: 3,900	#1587 - 2012-12-29 06:32:04 UTC 3 Alavaria Fera wrote: What HAVE RZR been up to? How did the newbie class go? Raiding the CFC's game reserve in the drone regions, albeit a bit more, erm...forcefully...than normal. As is typical, IRC took it for a full scale invasion and began to cascade (check that slope) so they backed off. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Frying Doom

Likes received: 3,724

#1588 - 2012-12-29 06:32:36 UTC

Marlona Sky wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Could you please articulate for me as to what you would propose.

Sorry if you have done so before but this thread is just so big now.

Thanks.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Shepard Wong Ogeko

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 801

#1589 - 2012-12-29 06:33:10 UTC

Tesal wrote:

Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.

Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

Who said there is no adventure in industry? And who says you need good standings.

Story time...

A guy down in highsec was interested in doing some industry, and doing the math he realized the value of having researched blueprints. While highsec does have tons of research slots, they tend to have a few weeks of wait time. He was going to need a POS and some labs to get ahead, and while he had been doing missions and even cashing in the LP for some starbase charters, it was also taking awhile, and highsec moons were almost all taken.

So he went to some near by lowsec. Didn't need the standings or even starbase charters, and there were even some open moons.

His first experience with lowsec industry was getting his hauler popped on the gate, and then buying what survived of his stuff back from the player pirate that ganked him. He eventually learned how to avoid this particular pirate and was able to move his tower and POS mods into the system he wanted.

He missed a step setting up his POS and while the shield was still down a player warped in on him. But he quickly warped off. Unfortunately, he was being chased, and his pursuer took that opportunity to blow up an industrial at an offlined POS. This pirate realized this was a first time POS setup, and gave his victim the tip he needed to get the POS shields up.

Yah, he got blown up a few times. He has to think before jumping through the next gate. He has about 100mil a month in POS fuel costs. But he is rewarded with 0 wait time on research and copy. When CCP releases new BPOs, like the new mining frigate and destroyers, he'll be able to get good BPOs and copies a month ahead of all the people who stayed in highsec and took the easy but month long wait of NPC stations. And he got to meet some rather interesting players.

This is the way the game should work. Those who stick their neck out should have an opportunity to be rewarded for it. There are plenty of parts of this game where this holds true. Industry isn't one of them. And while this might not be a big issue in other games that offer forms of crafting, Eve is more invested in player driven creation than most other games.

Frying Doom

Likes received: 3,724

#1590 - 2012-12-29 06:34:08 UTC

SmilingVagrant wrote:

Tesal wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Did Goons say you could speak? I thought not.

You never set your alarm for your skill que? Thank god those days are over.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

mynnna

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 3,900

#1591 - 2012-12-29 06:36:24 UTC

Frying Doom wrote:

SmilingVagrant wrote:

Tesal wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Did Goons say you could speak? I thought not.

You never set your alarm for your skill que? Thank god those days are over.

Smart players looked ahead in their skill plan for longer skills to set overnight/during class/etc whenever possible. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

SmilingVagrant

Doomheim

Likes received: 2,724

#1592 - 2012-12-29 06:41:27 UTC

mynnna wrote:

Alavaria Fera wrote:

What HAVE RZR been up to?

How did the newbie class go?

Raiding the CFC's game reserve in the drone regions, albeit a bit more, erm...forcefully...than normal.

As is typical, IRC took it for a full scale invasion and began to cascade (check that slope) so they backed off.

The funny thing is most of us had left IRC be for a bit because they had taken to dropping 200 man fleets on small roaming gangs. Obviously the punching bag had been punched a few too many times. Then RZR has to go and ruin it all.

Il Feytid

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 5,978

#1593 - 2012-12-29 06:46:02 UTC | Edited by: Il Feytid

Frying Doom wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Marlona Sky wrote:

Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Could you please articulate for me as to what you would propose.

Sorry if you have done so before but this thread is just so big now.

Thanks.

I honestly do not do industry, not for an extremely long time now. I do know people who do and I read the forums on a regular basis. What I do know is there is no easy fix. No simple change in code numbers or anything like that. That would be a band-aid on a shotgun wound. Granted there is a couple extremely fast band-aids CCP could do right now that would be extremely welcomed until a real proper revamp is done. Things like increasing the slots on player owned stations. That has been mentioned many times. It in no way fixes the problem, but is a small step in the right direction.

The ideas that I do not like are ones that are basically turning industry to trash for the entire game to push the misery loves company agenda. Things like jack the tax up and call it a day. Those kinds of things do nothing to fix industry, they actually make things worse.

Granted almost all of us are not game designers, nor should we have to be to know and understand what works and what does not. I don't have to be a gun designer or manufacturer to be a crack shot. This industry problem affects everyone on all levels. Perhaps to help those who do in fact do game design find the solution, we should start making a list of what is good and what is bad. Who knows really. Opinions will vary.

The simple fact is there is no 'I found the solution!' in this. This will take a team of people and a metric **** ton of player feedback. Constructive feedback that is.

Frying Doom

Likes received: 3,724

#1594 - 2012-12-29 06:47:46 UTC

mynnna wrote:

Smart players looked ahead in their skill plan for longer skills to set overnight/during class/etc whenever possible. Blink

Well I definitely was not that smart when I first started this game and wanted to be able to fly such mighty ships as a Vexor and then the omni-powerful battle cruiser.

I still remember getting up early to set skills up to train for those.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Buzzy Warstl

Quantum Flux Foundry

Likes received: 602

#1595 - 2012-12-29 06:52:29 UTC

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

I don't think nullsec and highsec industry need to be exactly the same. But highsec industry is flat out too good.

Everyone remember Fozzie's infamous Heavy Missile Nerf? The bottom line is that when the ships bonused to heavy missiles only had 5% stat increases, there literally was nothing that could be done to bring missiles into proper scale with the other weapons systems without reducing the base missile stats, and restoring that value using higher ship bonuses. It was a necessary step because it increased the flexibility with which variables could be adjusted.

High sec industry suffers the same up-against-a-wall issue of being one of the places you can get the best refines and build times in the game. This literally hamstrings developers to tackle economic issues in several key ways, and by arbitrarily insisting that highsec variables can't be made any lower than they stand today (even if others are increased) some players here are willing to selfishly allow stubborn adherence to a status quo stand in the way of allowing the design teams to solve problems in an innovative, effective, and elegant fashion throughout the next set of expansion releases.

[ I am not one of those players, just to clear up the question of where I personally stand on this. ]

EVE players are hardworking, cunning, and resilient - and everyone has a price point (or fun factor) that will successfully bait them into taking risks. There is a depressing lack of progression (and lack of adventure) baked into the current industrial core of the game that desperately needs a kickstart. If CCP can deliver and make the art of making things fun as hell - and more lucrative than ever for those that learn to live on the edge, it will bring them more long-term interest than anything they might risk from those that would follow through and quit just because their game changed.

Some are betting on the scared carebears who may actually quit. As for me, I'm betting on the smart carebears who are more than capable of computing loss percentages into their profit calculators and making gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly. even if they dislike PvP.

Some portions of highsec industry could definitely stand to be changed.

The costs of assembly lines should have a higher base and be reduced by standing, for one glaring one.
T2 and T3 production should require a POS assembly line or other "advanced facility" with lower availability.
Highsec production could be slowed down marginally.

There was one suggestion early in this thread of cutting the number of highsec lines in half, and that absolutely should not happen for reasons of access.

If anything, the baseline capabilities of highsec production lines could be reduced significantly, but the number of lines actually increased (especially in career agent systems).

However, if industry is balanced purely on the back of highsec changes, the magnitude of the nerfs necessary *would* be sufficient to drive people out. As such (and based on your comments you see that too), I expect any industry changes to industry to open as many opportunities as close.

Who knows, maybe we can get CCP to take another look at research, too.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

SmilingVagrant

Doomheim

Likes received: 2,724

#1596 - 2012-12-29 06:53:23 UTC

Frying Doom wrote:

mynnna wrote:

Smart players looked ahead in their skill plan for longer skills to set overnight/during class/etc whenever possible. Blink

I wasn't around then, but it sounds like something that would make me just say "This game is dumb" and I'd quit rather than deal with it.

Ryuji Takemiya

Doomheim

Likes received: 33

#1597 - 2012-12-29 06:53:40 UTC

SmilingVagrant wrote:

It's classic dehumanization. Same as in that terrible 'I won't build your Empire' thread. People are manipulated, or choose to manipulate themselves, into believing that their perceived enemy is somehow less than human.

Frying Doom

Likes received: 3,724

#1598 - 2012-12-29 07:10:04 UTC

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:

Tesal wrote:

Frying Doom wrote:

Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

I think you glanced the edge of another problem there with current POS manufacturing caabilities.

Scalability for below 0.00 space, there is no difference between Lo-sec and space -0.01 and below excluding sov with what you can anchor in that space.

POS anchoring test in 0.5 on Sisi Anchor Online Other Info

Advanced Large Ship Assembly Array Y Y
Advanced Medium Ship Assembly Array Y Y
Advanced Small Ship Assembly Array Y Y
Ammunition Assembly Array Y Y
Component Assembly Array Y Y
Drone Assembly Array Y Y
Equipment Assembly Array Y Y 0.75x time multiplier
Xtra Large Ship Assembly Array N (0.4) Cannot anchor in high sec because these build Dreads and carriers.
Large Ship Assembly Array Y Y 0.75x time multiplier - 1.0x material multiplier
Medium Ship Assembly Array Y Y
Small Ship Assembly Array Y Y
Rapid Equipment Assembly Array Y Y
Corporate Hangar Array Y Y
Energy Neutralizing Battery Y Y
Biochemical Reactor Array N (0.3)
Medium Biochemical Reactor Array N (0.3)
Medium Reactor Array N (0.3)
Complex Reactor Array N (0.3)
Reactor Array N (0.3)
Moon Harvesting Array I N (0.3)
Moon Harvesting Array II N (0.2) Not currently seeded on TQ
Intensive Refining Array N (0.3)
Medium Intensive Refining Array N (0.3)
Refining Array N (0.3)
Capital Ship Maintenance Array Y N Sovereignty Level 1 is the requirement
Ship Maintenance Array Y Y
Capital Ship Assembly Array N (0.1)
System Scanning Array 0.0 Only Requires Sovereignty Level 2
Jump Bridge 0.0 Only Requires Sovereignty Level 3
Cynosural System Jammer 0.0 Only Requires Sovereignty Level 3
Cynosural Generator Array 0.0 Only Requires Sovereignty Level 2
Experimental Laboratory Y Y
Subsystem Assembly Array Y Y
Polymer Reactor Array N (0.3) N

Sorry about the stuffed up table and the fact bits are a little out of date but you get the idea.

There is a hole in the chart I can anchor anything in lo-sec that I can in -0.01 or below but nothing that can be specifically anchored in -0.01 or below without Sov.

Maybe some modules need to be made specifically for -0.01 and below with for example a greater number of slots for mining and manufacturing and better refining than those anchorable 0.1 and above.

This incorporated with a reduction in NPC facilities and a boost to the current POS tech would allow

Those who want to use hi-sec POS to do so and have an adequate number of slots if they have the required standings or are happy to pay someone who does.

Those people who want to use lo-sec the ability to do the same without the problem of paying someone or grinding the standings.

And those living below 0.1 to have increased Manufacturing and PE and ME research, copying and invention to match the level of risk they are taking.

As I have said before people need to get off the NPC teat in this game and having reward in even Industry greater as the risk increases would encourage more people into more dangerous places, especially if you can line your pockets with gold Smile

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Alavaria Fera

GoonWaffe

Likes received: 6,953

#1599 - 2012-12-29 07:10:33 UTC

SmilingVagrant wrote:

mynnna wrote:

Alavaria Fera wrote:

What HAVE RZR been up to?

How did the newbie class go?

Oh great, poor IRC... you know what I mean.


SmilingVagrant Doomheim Likes received: 2,724	#1600 - 2012-12-29 07:13:23 UTC 3 Alavaria Fera wrote: Oh great, poor IRC... you know what I mean. Turns out Against all Anomalies is just as bad as IRC, so my killboard is full and my autocannons are empty. Life found a way.

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