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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1561 - 2012-12-29 01:37:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Highsec is perfectly fine ~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1562 - 2012-12-29 01:47:03 UTC
Tesal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.


Did Goons say you could speak? I thought not.

I don't ask Goons for permission to do anything. I don't need it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#1563 - 2012-12-29 01:53:48 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Seems like a great big hassle to me. I would unsub my industrial character and let someone else do the grind. I make more money trading anyway.
Please unsub, less competition means more money for me.
Frying Doom
#1564 - 2012-12-29 02:00:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Highsec is perfectly fine ~~

But perfectly fine what.

Now I am probably the biggest critic of the CSM around, especially the C5/C6 representative but I will admit I am waiting for the current minutes that while not proposing any firm plans for the following releases may actually include the road map for Null and Hi-sec.

Or at least a start talking point.

Now personally i have enjoyed to conversation so far and would like to see it continue without people acting like prats and just giving absolutes like you can't nerf hi-sec or you cant take anything off Null while balancing it.

I personally look forward to the continuation of this discussion in an adult manner.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tesal
#1565 - 2012-12-29 02:15:15 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Seems like a great big hassle to me. I would unsub my industrial character and let someone else do the grind. I make more money trading anyway.
Please unsub, less competition means more money for me.


Nullsec industrialists would roll a ton of new alts to utilize their newfound industrial prowess. You would have less hi-sec competition for sure.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1566 - 2012-12-29 02:17:05 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You can't demand every industrial to join CFC / HBC just so they can hope to not be treated like "alt worthy" persons. Dealing with those "classic" industrials despising alliances is one of the reasons for the above mentioned "smart carebears" to just give up on EvE. People have some pride, if the corp directors keep considering them crap it's not going to entice them to stay. Worst of all is the case when the industrial confesses he has NO PvP character, that's a granted, immediate kick. Having a PvP character was not a MUST when they were in hi sec, that's another way to lose people who enjoyed the crafting facet of EvE.

Also ATM there are some great issues at letting individuals set up their POSes in sov space, it has to be dealt with as well.


Why in the world would anyone assume the only two options are "carebear in highsec" or "join the CFC" ? Talk about oversimplification. Ugh The fact that everyone is funneling into two organizations is one of the problems that we're trying to fix in the first place.

If CCP succeeds at actually bringing lowsec and 0.0 to a healthy place, you won't have to be in a massive alliance to be able to experience life in dangerous areas. POS ownership inflexibility is quite obviously a huge part of this problem. Same with extremely limited tools with which to share POS access and resources.

Balancing the spectrum of risk and reward to encourage people to take risks has nothing to do with forcing someone into an Alliance or even to participate in Sov at all.

I want there to be a reason for industrialists to take risks, make huge stacks of cash, go on adventures, explore new products and new markets, to be able to live their profession anywhere int he EVE universe they damn well feel like it. The last thing I want to do is to dictate to anyone the kind of social structure they have to participate in to experience that. But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Frying Doom
#1567 - 2012-12-29 02:23:18 UTC
Tesal wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Seems like a great big hassle to me. I would unsub my industrial character and let someone else do the grind. I make more money trading anyway.
Please unsub, less competition means more money for me.


Nullsec industrialists would roll a ton of new alts to utilize their newfound industrial prowess. You would have less hi-sec competition for sure.

Yes the requirement the have maxed skills or isk to pay someone to put up a tower or a high rep your self would make a few people change paths or leave but as most true Hi-sec industrialists already have a fairly high rep to allow for free refining it would only be a few who would not do that extra little bit. As to Null sec industrialists, making Player structures better would still not cause them to occur en-mass unless other alterations to the amounts of minerals available in Null are altered as well.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#1568 - 2012-12-29 02:28:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Even smart carebears might abhor the idea of being forced into null sec alliances (because once null sec would outcompete them AND have the best resources AND "the full game" that's what would just happen).
Be it because they don't have the time to participate in them or because they got burned one time too many in there.
They have to have another choice, else a portion of them may as well "make gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly" in the sense they stop feeding CCP with their pockets.

Another most delicate issue is the despise for industrialists that some null sec alliances show.

You can't demand every industrial to join CFC / HBC just so they can hope to not be treated like "alt worthy" persons.
Dealing with those "classic" industrials despising alliances is one of the reasons for the above mentioned "smart carebears" to just give up on EvE.
People have some pride, if the corp directors keep considering them crap it's not going to entice them to stay.
Worst of all is the case when the industrial confesses he has NO PvP character, that's a granted, immediate kick.
Having a PvP character was not a MUST when they were in hi sec, that's another way to lose people who enjoyed the crafting facet of EvE.

Also ATM there are some great issues at letting individuals set up their POSes in sov space, it has to be dealt with as well.


The reason some 0.0 alliances treat industrialists terribly is because industry in 0.0 is a joke and there is very little way for any group to get any sort of value from industrialists. There are a few industrial services that are highly coveted, like supercapital production or trustable jump freighter services, which gain the people who operate these services lots of prestige. Maybe if corps and alliances were able to gain from basic industry going on in their space they would rethink their current mindsets.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1569 - 2012-12-29 03:19:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
EI Digin wrote:

The reason some 0.0 alliances treat industrialists terribly is because industry in 0.0 is a joke and there is very little way for any group to get any sort of value from industrialists. There are a few industrial services that are highly coveted, like supercapital production or trustable jump freighter services, which gain the people who operate these services lots of prestige. Maybe if corps and alliances were able to gain from basic industry going on in their space they would rethink their current mindsets.

I don't know about you, but for all non-cap industialists, there's bits on our wiki about how to build things, and if they start asking around, they quickly find out:
1) The best place to do it is in highsec
2) Everyone else in highsec can do it just about as well
3) You need to grind standings, freighter stuff around, etc etc
4) POS stuff

And so usually that means they make a decision "screw dis". We have some battleship producers, miniluv had some cruiser/battlecruiser producers (guess what kind) and even a T2 large blaster inventor/producer, if i recall.

I forgot, since the release of our~ importing profit calculator tool ~ there are a good number of people that import things for VFK. By which I mean their market alt buys stuff in Jita, has the JF service take it down and then just put it up for sale in VFK. Pretty sweet gig.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#1570 - 2012-12-29 03:25:03 UTC
OP and Hans' posts are baller. It's nice to see this sensitive discussion progressing calmly and maturely.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1571 - 2012-12-29 04:07:47 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
I don't think nullsec and highsec industry need to be exactly the same. But highsec industry is flat out too good.


Everyone remember Fozzie's infamous Heavy Missile Nerf? The bottom line is that when the ships bonused to heavy missiles only had 5% stat increases, there literally was nothing that could be done to bring missiles into proper scale with the other weapons systems without reducing the base missile stats, and restoring that value using higher ship bonuses. It was a necessary step because it increased the flexibility with which variables could be adjusted.

High sec industry suffers the same up-against-a-wall issue of being one of the places you can get the best refines and build times in the game. This literally hamstrings developers to tackle economic issues in several key ways, and by arbitrarily insisting that highsec variables can't be made any lower than they stand today (even if others are increased) some players here are willing to selfishly allow stubborn adherence to a status quo stand in the way of allowing the design teams to solve problems in an innovative, effective, and elegant fashion throughout the next set of expansion releases.

[ I am not one of those players, just to clear up the question of where I personally stand on this. ]

EVE players are hardworking, cunning, and resilient - and everyone has a price point (or fun factor) that will successfully bait them into taking risks. There is a depressing lack of progression (and lack of adventure) baked into the current industrial core of the game that desperately needs a kickstart. If CCP can deliver and make the art of making things fun as hell - and more lucrative than ever for those that learn to live on the edge, it will bring them more long-term interest than anything they might risk from those that would follow through and quit just because their game changed.

Some are betting on the scared carebears who may actually quit. As for me, I'm betting on the smart carebears who are more than capable of computing loss percentages into their profit calculators and making gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly. even if they dislike PvP.


This is the most reassuring thing I've read in a long time.


I am highly amused that Hans can suggest highsec needs nerfs/tweaks and have it be "well written" or "reassuring", whereas if I or Aryth or Weaselior suggest it, it's met with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Although Hans did do a much better job of articulating why such tweaks would be necessary. Perhaps I should take notes.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1572 - 2012-12-29 04:10:23 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I want there to be a reason for industrialists to take risks, make huge stacks of cash, go on adventures, explore new products and new markets, to be able to live their profession anywhere int he EVE universe they damn well feel like it. The last thing I want to do is to dictate to anyone the kind of social structure they have to participate in to experience that. But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"


Let us know when you fix the problem with people. There's an ass-load of RL cash to be made with that discovery.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1573 - 2012-12-29 04:17:11 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I want there to be a reason for industrialists to take risks, make huge stacks of cash, go on adventures, explore new products and new markets, to be able to live their profession anywhere int he EVE universe they damn well feel like it. The last thing I want to do is to dictate to anyone the kind of social structure they have to participate in to experience that. But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"


Let us know when you fix the problem with people. There's an ass-load of RL cash to be made with that discovery.


He wants to give people the tools to take risk (etc).

If people are unable or unwilling to do so, that's their problem.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1574 - 2012-12-29 04:27:13 UTC
mynnna wrote:
I am highly amused that Hans can suggest highsec needs nerfs/tweaks and have it be "well written" or "reassuring", whereas if I or Aryth or Weaselior suggest it, it's met with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Although Hans did do a much better job of articulating why such tweaks would be necessary. Perhaps I should take notes.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth is really nice, though.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1575 - 2012-12-29 04:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
mynnna wrote:
I am highly amused that Hans can suggest highsec needs nerfs/tweaks and have it be "well written" or "reassuring", whereas if I or Aryth or Weaselior suggest it, it's met with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Maybe you should go back and actually read what I've been saying, because I've been saying consistently the same exact thing. It's reassuring because Hans has taken a position I've agreed with, not that he's reassuring me that a highsec nerf wouldn't destroy the game as some would claim.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Luanda Heartbreaker
#1576 - 2012-12-29 05:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Luanda Heartbreaker
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Why in the world would anyone assume the only two options are "carebear in highsec" or "join the CFC" ? Talk about oversimplification. Ugh The fact that everyone is funneling into two organizations is one of the problems that we're trying to fix in the first place.

If CCP succeeds at actually bringing lowsec and 0.0 to a healthy place, you won't have to be in a massive alliance to be able to experience life in dangerous areas. POS ownership inflexibility is quite obviously a huge part of this problem. Same with extremely limited tools with which to share POS access and resources.


can i take it as CCP will raze up goon and the similar alliances? will take the ability of hotdropping or forming fleets of more then 3 toons? or you will delete all the toons over 20 mill sp? im interested how will you solve the "be our pet or leave nullsec" situation. same with lowsec. how do you want to make it a "healthy place", when a commandship can give over 2k shield for a simple t2 fitted pirate tengu? which casual player will go to lowsec to die for these without any actual chance of winning? you want to make the ghetto attractive and unable to realise, brooklyn will never become paris.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"


thats simply caused by those who cant understand that the 90% of eve community dont want them. actually there is no fair pvp in eve (while nearly every other MMO gives it) so any good you can train your toon and yourself, number and age will always win. many tiny alliance proved they have a lot better strategists and combatants then goon/razor/test stb but they are unable to compete and it seems in eve they will never be able due to number will always beat the brain. thats why those who dont like to be a "gun" pressing f1 in a goonfleet will never leave the safety zone.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1577 - 2012-12-29 05:06:36 UTC
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Why in the world would anyone assume the only two options are "carebear in highsec" or "join the CFC" ? Talk about oversimplification. Ugh The fact that everyone is funneling into two organizations is one of the problems that we're trying to fix in the first place.

If CCP succeeds at actually bringing lowsec and 0.0 to a healthy place, you won't have to be in a massive alliance to be able to experience life in dangerous areas. POS ownership inflexibility is quite obviously a huge part of this problem. Same with extremely limited tools with which to share POS access and resources.


can i take it as CCP will raze up goon and the similar alliances? will take the ability of hotdropping or forming fleets of more then 3 toons? or you will delete all the toons over 20 mill sp? im interested how will you solve the "be our pet or leave nullsec" situation. same with lowsec. how do you want to make it a "healthy place", when a commandship can give over 2k shield for a simple t2 fitted pirate tengu? which casual player will go to lowsec to die for these without any actual chance of winning? you want to make the ghetto attractive and unable to realise, brooklyn will never become paris.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"


thats simply caused by those who cant understand that the 90% of eve community dont want them. actually there is no fair pvp in eve (while nearly every other MMO gives it) so any good you can train your toon and yourself, number and age will always win. many tiny alliance proved they have a lot better strategists and combatants then goon/razor/test stb but they are unable to compete and it seems in eve they will never be able due to number will always beat the brain. thats why those who dont like to be a "gun" pressing f1 in a goonfleet will ever leave the safety zone.


Actually its all perfectly fair PVP since everyone has theoretical access to the same tools.

Also, teamwork is kind of important.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1578 - 2012-12-29 05:09:00 UTC
Luanda Heartbreaker wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Why in the world would anyone assume the only two options are "carebear in highsec" or "join the CFC" ? Talk about oversimplification. Ugh The fact that everyone is funneling into two organizations is one of the problems that we're trying to fix in the first place.

If CCP succeeds at actually bringing lowsec and 0.0 to a healthy place, you won't have to be in a massive alliance to be able to experience life in dangerous areas. POS ownership inflexibility is quite obviously a huge part of this problem. Same with extremely limited tools with which to share POS access and resources.


can i take it as CCP will raze up goon and the similar alliances? will take the ability of hotdropping or forming fleets of more then 3 toons? or you will delete all the toons over 20 mill sp? im interested how will you solve the "be our pet or leave nullsec" situation. same with lowsec. how do you want to make it a "healthy place", when a commandship can give over 2k shield for a simple t2 fitted pirate tengu? which casual player will go to lowsec to die for these without any actual chance of winning? you want to make the ghetto attractive and unable to realise, brooklyn will never become paris.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

But I also hate to see so many people discouraged from ever moving beyond the trade hub zones "because life out there just sucks and its not worth it and not fun"


thats simply caused by those who cant understand that the 90% of eve community dont want them. actually there is no fair pvp in eve (while nearly every other MMO gives it) so any good you can train your toon and yourself, number and age will always win. many tiny alliance proved they have a lot better strategists and combatants then goon/razor/test stb but they are unable to compete and it seems in eve they will never be able due to number will always beat the brain. thats why those who dont like to be a "gun" pressing f1 in a goonfleet will never leave the safety zone.

LOL, you're so cute.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Luanda Heartbreaker
#1579 - 2012-12-29 05:09:03 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:


Actually its all perfectly fair PVP since everyone has theoretical access to the same tools.

Also, teamwork is kind of important.


all i can say to this is zOMG. are you a troll? u must be
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#1580 - 2012-12-29 05:09:28 UTC
Speaking as an explicitly highsec industrial player....highsec needs a nerf. Null needs a boost. You can't nerf high too far, because, CCP does get it's pocket money out of highsec "casual" players.

One simple idea I thought up, is create a new resource in EVE, that can only be found/used in null. Including it as an option makes the resulting module/ship/whathaveyou "better", but only in null. We're talking about a game where people will pay millions of ISK for a 5% increase in hitpoints. I'm sure that'll inspire some industry outside of highsec.

www.minerbumping.com