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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1541 - 2012-12-29 00:29:17 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Glad to see you at least took my advice and decided to get involved in the community via this discussion.

Also no I have not been slamming the whole CSM just those that wrote that Horrible document that is or is not a template) With that one line taken in or out of context being the nub of the whole matter but any way.


Except that you have been slamming the whole CSM, calling for the institution itself to be disbanded. The institution that has been representing many of your beliefs to CCP directly. And yes, it was a template. We said so than, we said so the first time people got bogged down in the feature discussion, and I said so three other times in the last 24 hours. You can drop the act about "I just don't know what its about" because its been made perfectly clear and you just look silly repeating yourself.

Frying Doom wrote:

1) Posting minutes every 6 months while great is not really community involvement. I have not accused you of keeping the community in the dark but not participating in the community as a whole via these very EvE forums.


The EVE community spills far beyond the forums. In fact, the majority will never set foot here in the first place, largely because of the signal-to-noise ratio created by players who belligerently insist on dragging out arguments into places of irrelevent, ridiculous hyperbole. *coughs* Posting frequency is an arbitrary (and flawed) measure of "community involvement" and demonstrates that your own sense of community is confined to the tiny subset of players who participate in forums.


Frying Doom wrote:
2) If this is directed at me actually I have never been in the nerf Null or nerf Hi-sec groups, what I have said is that Nerfing Hi-sec massively will cause Unsubs because it will, there is really no wriggle room on that. Doing it carefully however will have long ranging benefits for the game.


Than I have no idea why you're so upset that you'd trash on the group of people in the best position to help you out right now. No one's every suggested such a thing, not CCP, and not the CSM, and not any players we're taking seriously. CCP is a business, everyone is very aware of that.

Quote:
Now personal attacks on me here or against you in Jita park (Strangely an area covering Politics) aside would you now care to stick around and participate in this discussion well after the minutes are completed.

Yes we are aware you are constricted by an NDA but your own personal views are not.


Yes. My pleasure. And there's no need to take my responses as personal attacks. I'm sure you're a lovely fellow, but your posts are often bad and filled with false statements built on colossal assumptions and I would be doing you a disservice if I wasn't honest with you what is actually going on so you can actually be constructive when engaging in these discussions. Cool

(As opposed to the alternative, going off for days about CCP obliterating high sec industry when no one was ever suggesting anything of the sort).

Frying Doom wrote:

I thank you for your work on the minutes during these holidays but wish yourself and more of the CSM had used these forums more widely over the year to have greater discussions with us on The EvE forums. As this game is after all EvE Online not Reddit or Kugutsomen online.


You're welcome, even if I don't share your disappointingly one-dimensional view of who we should consider part of the EVE community.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1542 - 2012-12-29 00:30:13 UTC
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.
Tesal
#1543 - 2012-12-29 00:34:44 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1544 - 2012-12-29 00:37:09 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

There are a number of individuals who have those standings that would be happy to provide the service to you.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#1545 - 2012-12-29 00:39:58 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
I don't think nullsec and highsec industry need to be exactly the same. But highsec industry is flat out too good.


Everyone remember Fozzie's infamous Heavy Missile Nerf? The bottom line is that when the ships bonused to heavy missiles only had 5% stat increases, there literally was nothing that could be done to bring missiles into proper scale with the other weapons systems without reducing the base missile stats, and restoring that value using higher ship bonuses. It was a necessary step because it increased the flexibility with which variables could be adjusted.

High sec industry suffers the same up-against-a-wall issue of being one of the places you can get the best refines and build times in the game. This literally hamstrings developers to tackle economic issues in several key ways, and by arbitrarily insisting that highsec variables can't be made any lower than they stand today (even if others are increased) some players here are willing to selfishly allow stubborn adherence to a status quo stand in the way of allowing the design teams to solve problems in an innovative, effective, and elegant fashion throughout the next set of expansion releases.

[ I am not one of those players, just to clear up the question of where I personally stand on this. ]

EVE players are hardworking, cunning, and resilient - and everyone has a price point (or fun factor) that will successfully bait them into taking risks. There is a depressing lack of progression (and lack of adventure) baked into the current industrial core of the game that desperately needs a kickstart. If CCP can deliver and make the art of making things fun as hell - and more lucrative than ever for those that learn to live on the edge, it will bring them more long-term interest than anything they might risk from those that would follow through and quit just because their game changed.

Some are betting on the scared carebears who may actually quit. As for me, I'm betting on the smart carebears who are more than capable of computing loss percentages into their profit calculators and making gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly. even if they dislike PvP.


*Applauds*

An easy to understand statement, that makes sense.

I will admit that is probably the best thing I have ever read that you wrote. Thank you for participating and I really hope you continue to do so.


See? I knew with a bit of patience we could come to an understanding. We have much more in common ideologically than you'd think, it just takes getting over the whole "big bad CSM" crap and actually listening to what we've been saying.

Would it be creepy if I ask if we can be spacebros now and hug it out? Or am I moving too fast.... Bear


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Tesal
#1546 - 2012-12-29 00:40:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

There are a number of individuals who have those standings that would be happy to provide the service to you.


You would have to use an alt corp with alts that have zero standings. If you do it in your main corp the standings revert back to what they were.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1547 - 2012-12-29 00:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Tesal wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

There are a number of individuals who have those standings that would be happy to provide the service to you.


You would have to use an alt corp with alts that have zero standings. If you do it in your main corp the standings revert back to what they were.

This isn't an issue unless you have need to anchor a new tower. If that becomes the case the services of the aforementioned individuals can be used again.
Frying Doom
#1548 - 2012-12-29 00:47:09 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

Personally I have spent the time on 2 characters to have high enough standings to drop a tower any where.

Yes it was a lot of long boring distribution missions.

But there are people who sell these services via either the creation of a new corp or by having the active members with insuffient standings leave for a week.

But in essence it means that people that want the rewards of great manufacturing, research and refining would have to work for it or as i have said otherwise by setting NPC stations at a base 30% it means that people with perfect skills and a refining implant could still get 100% refine out of NPC stations.

So Hi-sec would actually be improved for those that put in the time rather than there being little reward for being highly skilled or a high rep in Hi-sec. While allowing those who want to increase their risk via lo-sec for instance could still get perfect refines and great manufacturing without the skill training to perfect and without high reps.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tesal
#1549 - 2012-12-29 00:54:31 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

Personally I have spent the time on 2 characters to have high enough standings to drop a tower any where.

Yes it was a lot of long boring distribution missions.

But there are people who sell these services via either the creation of a new corp or by having the active members with insuffient standings leave for a week.

But in essence it means that people that want the rewards of great manufacturing, research and refining would have to work for it or as i have said otherwise by setting NPC stations at a base 30% it means that people with perfect skills and a refining implant could still get 100% refine out of NPC stations.

So Hi-sec would actually be improved for those that put in the time rather than there being little reward for being highly skilled or a high rep in Hi-sec. While allowing those who want to increase their risk via lo-sec for instance could still get perfect refines and great manufacturing without the skill training to perfect and without high reps.


Seems like a great big hassle to me. I would unsub my industrial character and let someone else do the grind. I make more money trading anyway.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1550 - 2012-12-29 00:56:41 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

Personally I have spent the time on 2 characters to have high enough standings to drop a tower any where.

Yes it was a lot of long boring distribution missions.

But there are people who sell these services via either the creation of a new corp or by having the active members with insuffient standings leave for a week.

But in essence it means that people that want the rewards of great manufacturing, research and refining would have to work for it or as i have said otherwise by setting NPC stations at a base 30% it means that people with perfect skills and a refining implant could still get 100% refine out of NPC stations.

So Hi-sec would actually be improved for those that put in the time rather than there being little reward for being highly skilled or a high rep in Hi-sec. While allowing those who want to increase their risk via lo-sec for instance could still get perfect refines and great manufacturing without the skill training to perfect and without high reps.


Seems like a great big hassle to me. I would unsub my industrial character and let someone else do the grind. I make more money trading anyway.


~Didn't want those systems anyway~

Things are only impossible until they are not.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1551 - 2012-12-29 00:59:16 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

There are a number of individuals who have those standings that would be happy to provide the service to you.


You would have to use an alt corp with alts that have zero standings. If you do it in your main corp the standings revert back to what they were.


So many comment in a thread about Industry who appear to not know so little about it?

For the record, Refineries can not be anchored high sec.

Oh here is a challenge question - do Industrialists get fostered inside the big alliances or is it just those interested in weapons, tackling and logisics? There is an admission there is a problem of null industry could part of it be a personel problem.
Tesal
#1552 - 2012-12-29 00:59:27 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:


~Didn't want those systems anyway~


Right on brother.
Frying Doom
#1553 - 2012-12-29 01:01:28 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Tesal wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Yes it would but at least then the players would be paying for their luxuries and not just being given them super cheap or free when they are not using them, if players have to build and maintain there own POS to be able to compete with regards to refining and manufacturing it makes it vulnerable to attack and means that they are paying for the upkeep of those luxuries. Atm they are getting a massive bonus with little to no cost.


Most corps don't have the standings to launch a POS in empire, mine included.

Personally I have spent the time on 2 characters to have high enough standings to drop a tower any where.

Yes it was a lot of long boring distribution missions.

But there are people who sell these services via either the creation of a new corp or by having the active members with insuffient standings leave for a week.

But in essence it means that people that want the rewards of great manufacturing, research and refining would have to work for it or as i have said otherwise by setting NPC stations at a base 30% it means that people with perfect skills and a refining implant could still get 100% refine out of NPC stations.

So Hi-sec would actually be improved for those that put in the time rather than there being little reward for being highly skilled or a high rep in Hi-sec. While allowing those who want to increase their risk via lo-sec for instance could still get perfect refines and great manufacturing without the skill training to perfect and without high reps.


Seems like a great big hassle to me. I would unsub my industrial character and let someone else do the grind. I make more money trading anyway.

So your primary focus is not industry, while I can not say i agree and lets face it I don't believe people should get massive bonuses above those who have put in effort. Some people will always disagree.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1554 - 2012-12-29 01:02:50 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
I don't think nullsec and highsec industry need to be exactly the same. But highsec industry is flat out too good.


Everyone remember Fozzie's infamous Heavy Missile Nerf? The bottom line is that when the ships bonused to heavy missiles only had 5% stat increases, there literally was nothing that could be done to bring missiles into proper scale with the other weapons systems without reducing the base missile stats, and restoring that value using higher ship bonuses. It was a necessary step because it increased the flexibility with which variables could be adjusted.

High sec industry suffers the same up-against-a-wall issue of being one of the places you can get the best refines and build times in the game. This literally hamstrings developers to tackle economic issues in several key ways, and by arbitrarily insisting that highsec variables can't be made any lower than they stand today (even if others are increased) some players here are willing to selfishly allow stubborn adherence to a status quo stand in the way of allowing the design teams to solve problems in an innovative, effective, and elegant fashion throughout the next set of expansion releases.

[ I am not one of those players, just to clear up the question of where I personally stand on this. ]

EVE players are hardworking, cunning, and resilient - and everyone has a price point (or fun factor) that will successfully bait them into taking risks. There is a depressing lack of progression (and lack of adventure) baked into the current industrial core of the game that desperately needs a kickstart. If CCP can deliver and make the art of making things fun as hell - and more lucrative than ever for those that learn to live on the edge, it will bring them more long-term interest than anything they might risk from those that would follow through and quit just because their game changed.

Some are betting on the scared carebears who may actually quit. As for me, I'm betting on the smart carebears who are more than capable of computing loss percentages into their profit calculators and making gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly. even if they dislike PvP.


This is the most reassuring thing I've read in a long time.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1555 - 2012-12-29 01:03:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Counterpoint: every game that has tried to copy the WoW model has crashed and burned hard.


I don't know how this is exactly related to WoW being born "classic" and being turned into "casual friendly" but I'll tell you some things:

- WoW cannot be copied. They "got there first", .


Yes agreed. Absolutely.

That's why I'm puzzled that you would assert that CCP could have quadrupled player numbers by trying to invade their niche.


A game does not need to be a WoW clone to share some of its strong points. Those who cloned, failed. Some "borrowed" some concepts and are still going on quite well.

CCP too took and is taking some WoW points: see the "streamlining" in item names, features like inventory, new tutorials, revamping the web sites to make them more captivating for a less "Text mode Excel in space" crowd.

The effect: WoW started with a core of 500k hard corers, it attracted about 28 times as many "soft core / casual" etc. players.
EvE started with 5k players, most quite dedicated and it attracted about 8-10 times as many "soft core / casual" etc. players.

If they had succeeded with a 20:1 ratio then EvE would have the 100k players that were those around which the CCP hardware was setup to deal with.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1556 - 2012-12-29 01:13:23 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:

On this, though, I have to strongly disagree.

To summarise you say "As long as EvE will have "players in rags" it won't take off and at this point I fear EvE missed the train" and that "[Since WOW made] their games enjoyable to those "players in rags". Since then, the 500k players have turned into 14M"

I think this is exactly the wrong way to look at EVE and it's future.


Oh, don't worry, casual player <> BAD player. Even in WoW you can start with basic gear AFK grinded in a battleground and then proceed with a bright arena career ROFLstomping worse players.

If you want I can link you GW2 videos (another game easing casual players a lot) of basic geared guys rolling over 4-5 people at a time, they just were *good* at play.

EvE should not cater to BAD, I even opposed when CCP wanted to dumb down item names and inventory.

Imo EvE are actually, slowly getting there, RvB is the hi sec casual heaven, FW is the low sec. We just miss the null sec counter part, with more things than FW.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1557 - 2012-12-29 01:14:37 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1558 - 2012-12-29 01:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Some are betting on the scared carebears who may actually quit. As for me, I'm betting on the smart carebears who are more than capable of computing loss percentages into their profit calculators and making gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly. even if they dislike PvP.


Despite you asked to not oversimplify the industry hi sec vs null sec situation etc. etc., you are now oversimplifying yourself.

Even smart carebears might abhor the idea of being forced into null sec alliances (because once null sec would outcompete them AND have the best resources AND "the full game" that's what would just happen).
Be it because they don't have the time to participate in them or because they got burned one time too many in there.
They have to have another choice, else a portion of them may as well "make gameplay choices that are pocketbook-friendly" in the sense they stop feeding CCP with their pockets.

Another most delicate issue is the despise for industrialists that some null sec alliances show.

You can't demand every industrial to join CFC / HBC just so they can hope to not be treated like "alt worthy" persons.
Dealing with those "classic" industrials despising alliances is one of the reasons for the above mentioned "smart carebears" to just give up on EvE.
People have some pride, if the corp directors keep considering them crap it's not going to entice them to stay.
Worst of all is the case when the industrial confesses he has NO PvP character, that's a granted, immediate kick.
Having a PvP character was not a MUST when they were in hi sec, that's another way to lose people who enjoyed the crafting facet of EvE.

Also ATM there are some great issues at letting individuals set up their POSes in sov space, it has to be dealt with as well.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Tesal
#1559 - 2012-12-29 01:33:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.


Did Goons say you could speak? I thought not.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1560 - 2012-12-29 01:35:44 UTC
Tesal wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Hans demonstrating why this CSM has so far been the most effective in producing results and representing the player base.

Says the person who earlier pretended the problem didn't exist at all.


Did Goons say you could speak? I thought not.


Ever since they made Mittani sign the Magna Carta they don't have to ask to speak anymore.

Things are only impossible until they are not.