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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Frying Doom
#1461 - 2012-12-28 12:59:08 UTC
I suppose this argument comes down to why I went into a Wormhole.

The industry is even more crappy than in Null.

But in a wormhole even though there is bugger all industry, no local and getting jumped and splattered with no warning is just a way of life. Oh did I mention getting to a trade hub is not just the matter of lighting a couple of cynos.

As to risk avoidance I undocked from Jita 4 4 yesterday and what

I did not have to join a huge mega corp were I get to know only a small fraction of members.
I do not have to be in a blob.
I don't have to worry about being in a good fight when the other guy lights a cyno and I get my cane hot dropped by a super or titan.

I think that sums up a lot of the problems of Null.


  • Industry sucks just not as bad as a Wh
  • Jump ranges are to long
  • It is too hard for small alliances to get a foot hold in Null
  • It is too easy for large alliances to claim massive amounts of space for no reason other than to claim it.
  • Systems only need to be used if they are attacked, where by you titan bridge in and kill. So no one can jump you traveling to a system you chose to have some 40 jumps from your base of operations.


In this I believe that maybe a slow and steady approach might be helpful to Null, first fix the POS and Outpost refining and manufacturing sides as well as reduce NPC stations to a base max of 30% 15 for the ones that are crappy now and then go from there slowly and carefully.
People may dispute these but these were the reasons I chose Whs they are a lot more fun for me individually than Null.

Oh did I mention Sov was a pig, well it is but I believe in system usage while others believe in the current positives but with fewer draw backs.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1462 - 2012-12-28 13:01:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nessa Aldeen wrote:
Warning: Long post and no TLDR.

I had been in null sec for a long while, and I have witnessed massive amounts of iskies made in null sec. The position that null sec needs more buff is ridiculous...


It's not just about making ISK. It's about extending the range of viable activities so that there are other things to do than smoosh red pluses.

Oh and 0.0 ISK making is only somewhat better than hi-sec, and pales besides W-space. What do you consider "massive"?

Maybe it used to pale compared to WH space but prices have dropped a lot and now running plexes in Null are not much worse of than doing them in a WH.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1463 - 2012-12-28 13:03:45 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:

IMO the people in Null are kinder and more loyal than those in HighSec because in Null you need friends, in HighSec you can scam everyone you see for life.



The "All 0.0 alliance members are mindless slaves groaning under the yoke of their masters" meme is more to do with sour-grapes self-justifcation from people who never made it in 0.0*. You see, they regard being asked to contribute any effort towards the success of the group as an unjust obligation, because they're used to the hi-sec philosophy where you don't have to do a damb thing to get the candy. So they join an alliance where the exisiting members have put in the effort to get things working and make their space at least somewhat productive, and they assume that the benefits like anoms, moons, jump bridges, outposts, etc just happen - just like they do in hi-sec.

Then they're surprised and offended when the seasons turn and they're expected to put in some effort in their turn. What the hell? What's this? I'm not your servant! Go to hell, you tyrant. And so, like a sulky teenager, they storm off back tot he safety of hisec, never realising how little they've actually been asked to do for the benefits they're receiving. They simply have no conception of the team play mindset that's required to survive and thrive in 0.0.

(*And ex-IRC members for whom it was quite true.)

I have never been in any alliance where you did not contribute to the corp/alliance. I am sure some people don't contribute at all but those people probably exist in Null as well, they are the ones that leave corps bitching about how it sucked normally.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1464 - 2012-12-28 13:09:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Oh and 0.0 ISK making is only somewhat better than hi-sec, and pales besides W-space. What do you consider "massive"?


Newbie to 100+ billion inside 2 years with pretty little effort.

Making money is not an issue in null.
Ralitge boyter
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1465 - 2012-12-28 13:14:20 UTC
Taria Katelo wrote:
didnt read the huge wall of text you posted because if someone needs so many words to explain his opinion, then he is wrong anyways. now to your TL;DR. if you give stats, at least post from where you made them up. because 71% of players in highsec can just as well mean that most people just have their alts stationed in highsec.

and just because many ppl live in highsec it doesnt mean that something is wrong with highsec. you maybe should think the other way around. if there are so few ppl in nullsec although there are a ton of systems, then maybe something is wrong with nullsec. like being able to control huge a amount of systems just with supers while noone has to even live there. power projection in 0.0 is the problem.


I can only agree with this the main problem of the game is not high sec it is null...

If anything 0.0 should take a look at wormholes where PvP is better and industrialists can move in and live without major issues if they so choose...
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#1466 - 2012-12-28 13:18:47 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Roland Schlosser wrote:
Null-sec has the opportunity to be completely free of Hi-sec goods and services, just stop buying from Jita. Not a hard concept eh? Spend less isk on adding more supers to your already over-massive blobs and put that isk into buffing your own industry. If demand for hi-sec goods dries up then hi-sec should stop producing, correct? You have to make null look more attractive to indy players than hi-sec, and to do that the first thing you need to do is stop buying from them, and start building your own stuff.

Stop supporting the system you hate.



No it doesn't, because outposts in player sov simply don't have enough production lines to do this.

Please try reading the thread, as the problem is disucssed in some detail by people who actually know something about it.


so then buff null, make a sov pos have 10 times the capacity of a high sec npc station. make it worth fighting/dying for.

by making everything in high sec just suck, it will make people decide they should move on and leave. While some ultra hardcore folks may think thats a good thing, theres inevitably going to be others who will find that a bad thing (theres plenty of people who get thier kicks out of tormenting high sec, do you want them to be bored too? lol). If high sec is nerfed and turned into a waste land, and low sec is deserted, and null sec is a bunch of big alliances with non aggression deals.. what then?
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1467 - 2012-12-28 13:46:34 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
March rabbit wrote:

....


....

...


....

3. Risk/reward ratio is completely out of whack and it is the risk side, not the reward side that is completely flawed so I cannot really agree with you fully here. Once again, instant information is the culprit. Any industrialist that is not under the protection of a major alliance would be quite stupid if he tried to go and mine in null today regardless of the reward that could be reaped there. Everyone sees and knows that there are players that are locked out of 0.0 unless they join some master yet everyone refuses to see HOW they are locked out.

...




Sorry to just pick out one point rather than dealing with all of them but there were a few things here i wanted to comment on.

First it can't be true that "Risk/reward ratio is completely out of whack and it is the risk side, not the reward side that is completely flawed", they are paired.

Anything, however risky, can be made an attractive proposition, take the lottery, the odds of winning in the UK are 1 in 14 million, so unbelievably improbable, but a prize of 7 million pounds and an entry fee of a pound is enough to make people play the game.

This leads into your idea that "Any industrialist that is not under the protection of a major alliance would be quite stupid if he tried to go and mine in null today regardless of the reward that could be reaped there";

this is not true, if in a 20 mill retriever you could make 5 billion an hour then it's worth ninjering in, even if you only get a load out once every 20 trips it's still worth the risk.

I know this is an absurd example and I hope it get's my point across.


Secondly this idea that everyone is "locked out of 0.0 unless they join some master" is, I think, quite a pernicious form of slander against the null empires (which is fine, slander is one of the best things about the internet).

I see my null corp as my buddies, they help me much more than hindering me and ask for basically nothing. They give me free ships to fly in PVP, much better than I would fly for myself. They're kind and thoughtful, if I have a problem they leap to help me out.

We're in an alliance and I had a chat with the leader the other day, he seems like a nice bloke, I could ask directly for whatever I want and he's willing to help. he even offered personally to come out and help me develop some FC skills.

So I know this is only my experience, maybe the rest of null is full of people crying after getting shouted at and bullied, but then why would they play that game?

To me it's fun and social and meaningful. I wouldn't play if it wasn't. It's not like you're saying it is, and maybe try it out, there are a lot of good people out in Null.

IMO the people in Null are kinder and more loyal than those in HighSec because in Null you need friends, in HighSec you can scam everyone you see for life.



Actually, for your information risk and reward are not dependent on each other. Zero. Nada. Zilch. They just happen to complement each other in EVE. They MUST complement each other in order for the sandbox to work and make sense. That is a huge difference. On top of that you make an even huger mistake by using a lottery as a justification of risk vs reward. Sorry, but EVE does not work like a lottery so that example is null and void in every sense, form and shape. EVE works mainly through player actions and skill, not pure luck. The last thing we want is the luck factor dominating (ECM anyone?). Luck also has an importance of course but it's not in many places in a game like EVE.

As for risk/reward: if CCP so wanted they could make all high-sec completely risk free and have the biggest rewards. But that wouldn't be much fun for anyone now would it, specially when wealth is a primary factor in EVE?

So once again just to recap case: RISK and REWARD have absolutely NO dependence on each other. However in order to have any kind of gameplay in EVE they must complement each other where appropriate. But because they are independent on one another that means you can change them separately, which is a claim you seem to deny.

The next example you use is the 20 mil retriever making 5 bil an hour with a few trips. Here again you make several mistakes.
First of all you don't take into account the status quo of null-sec, nor do you take into account what a change of this magnitude (if I am to borrow your example) would do to the economy. Unless you haven't noticed, EVE has a bit of an inflation issue going on so the last thing we want is more isk sinks anywhere. This the first reason why reckless "increase rewards here and there" suggestions are bad.

As for the status quo: if we ignore the economic consequences, what do you think would happen if null-sec had a much increased reward from mining and such? Do you think that the sov-holders would simply let people come in and do as they please? If they are aware that more people were to enter their space in order to reap the rewards, what do you think the logical step would be for a group of null-sec dwellers that are constantly looking for PvP?
And this is the second reason for why "increase rewards here and there" suggestions are bad.

The "masters" comment wasn't really meant to slander in that way hehe. I was actually referring to the fact that newer players who want to try out null early on pretty much have no choice but to join the already existing sov holders as they have no hope in making any progress themselves. The "do whatever you want in EVE" factor is especially weak in this area. How often do you see genuinely newer players band together and take sov that they can genuinely call their own? If this actually happened in EVE then there would not be any "null-sec" is so empty complaints going on in the first place.

Whew, long post...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1468 - 2012-12-28 13:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Malcanis wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:

IMO the people in Null are kinder and more loyal than those in HighSec because in Null you need friends, in HighSec you can scam everyone you see for life.



The "All 0.0 alliance members are mindless slaves groaning under the yoke of their masters" meme is more to do with sour-grapes self-justifcation from people who never made it in 0.0*. You see, they regard being asked to contribute any effort towards the success of the group as an unjust obligation, because they're used to the hi-sec philosophy where you don't have to do a damb thing to get the candy. So they join an alliance where the exisiting members have put in the effort to get things working and make their space at least somewhat productive, and they assume that the benefits like anoms, moons, jump bridges, outposts, etc just happen - just like they do in hi-sec.


You did not mention there are also those who don't want to be a cog in someone else's massive enrichment scheme and prefer to join a small corp where everybody matters and everybody know each other.

I used to play in large guilds in other MMOs (and even lead one), passing the years that stuff - while good - grew old.
These days I prefer a 10-20 men organization.

Edit: later today I'll actually have a group "op" in another MMO. It'll take 10 minutes to set it up and do stuff instead of 1 hour and there won't be any "nullsec" to deal with, because in that MMO everywhere is the same. And no blobs. And we know each other since 2003 so it'll be like playing in family.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#1469 - 2012-12-28 13:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:

IMO the people in Null are kinder and more loyal than those in HighSec because in Null you need friends, in HighSec you can scam everyone you see for life.



The "All 0.0 alliance members are mindless slaves groaning under the yoke of their masters" meme is more to do with sour-grapes self-justifcation from people who never made it in 0.0*. You see, they regard being asked to contribute any effort towards the success of the group as an unjust obligation, because they're used to the hi-sec philosophy where you don't have to do a damb thing to get the candy. So they join an alliance where the exisiting members have put in the effort to get things working and make their space at least somewhat productive, and they assume that the benefits like anoms, moons, jump bridges, outposts, etc just happen - just like they do in hi-sec.


You did not mention there are also those who don't want to be a cog in someone else's massive enrichment scheme and prefer to join a small corp where everybody matters and everybody know each other.

I used to play in large guilds in other MMOs (and even lead one), passing the years that stuff - while good - grew old.
These days I prefer a 10-20 men organization.

Edit: later today I'll actually have a group "op" in another MMO. It'll take 10 minutes to set it up and do stuff instead of 1 hour and there won't be any "nullsec" to deal with, because in that MMO everywhere is the same. And no blobs. And we know each other since 2003 so it'll be like playing in family.

I think that is one of the biggest problems CCP will face in fixing Null, while it has a lot of problems a vocal part of the Null community wants Null sec buffed, while keeping all of the perks it currently has for the larger alliances. And of course some people believe Hi-sec should be destroyed in the process or are just to blind to see there proposals (or not proposals depending on what CSM sentence you read) will destroy Hi-sec.

Edit to your edit: Yeah my wife has the same thing she is a WOW player, she gets invited to groups all the time and run off doing dungeons. Same people for the last 7 years.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1470 - 2012-12-28 13:58:23 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nessa Aldeen wrote:
Warning: Long post and no TLDR.

I had been in null sec for a long while, and I have witnessed massive amounts of iskies made in null sec. The position that null sec needs more buff is ridiculous...


It's not just about making ISK. It's about extending the range of viable activities so that there are other things to do than smoosh red pluses.

Oh and 0.0 ISK making is only somewhat better than hi-sec, and pales besides W-space. What do you consider "massive"?

Maybe it used to pale compared to WH space but prices have dropped a lot and now running plexes in Null are not much worse of than doing them in a WH.


I'd be utterly shocked to learn that T3 prices have fallen so far that working C5/C6 sites is only getting the ~100M/hr that sov 0.0 anoms top out at.

Exploration Plexes can pay more, but they're not reliable or scalable in the same way.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1471 - 2012-12-28 13:59:33 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I think that is one of the biggest problems CCP will face in fixing Null, while it has a lot of problems a vocal part of the Null community wants Null sec buffed, while keeping all of the perks it currently has for the larger alliances.


I'm sorry, what? I don't recall any suggestions long the lines of "buff outpoists but only for alliances which have 25 or more of them". What are you referring to here?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frying Doom
#1472 - 2012-12-28 14:03:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
I think that is one of the biggest problems CCP will face in fixing Null, while it has a lot of problems a vocal part of the Null community wants Null sec buffed, while keeping all of the perks it currently has for the larger alliances.


I'm sorry, what? I don't recall any suggestions long the lines of "buff outpoists but only for alliances which have 25 or more of them". What are you referring to here?

A buff would be a buff not a nerf wouldn't it? removing some of the current perks would be a nerf.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1473 - 2012-12-28 14:05:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nessa Aldeen wrote:
Warning: Long post and no TLDR.

I had been in null sec for a long while, and I have witnessed massive amounts of iskies made in null sec. The position that null sec needs more buff is ridiculous...


It's not just about making ISK. It's about extending the range of viable activities so that there are other things to do than smoosh red pluses.

Oh and 0.0 ISK making is only somewhat better than hi-sec, and pales besides W-space. What do you consider "massive"?

Maybe it used to pale compared to WH space but prices have dropped a lot and now running plexes in Null are not much worse of than doing them in a WH.


I'd be utterly shocked to learn that T3 prices have fallen so far that working C5/C6 sites is only getting the ~100M/hr that sov 0.0 anoms top out at.

Exploration Plexes can pay more, but they're not reliable or scalable in the same way.

I must have missed anything other than a worm hole moving being reliable in a wormhole.

Also I did not think you needed anywhere near the level of firepower (risk) to do a plex than you do a C5 or C6 site.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1474 - 2012-12-28 14:07:54 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Edit to your edit: Yeah my wife has the same thing she is a WOW player, she gets invited to groups all the time and run off doing dungeons. Same people for the last 7 years.


It's not even WoW. These days every MMO adapted to the new restriction people have with their RL. I can name you a number of MMOs where doing stuff is within the time restrictions adults with responsibilities have.
Only EvE is lagging behind - and it's an huge mistake - hi sec and WHs are the only functioning and modern parts of the game that are easily accessible to a modern (crappy) life playerbase. Low is already higher commitment (unless you just want to run exploration / FW farm), null sec - depending on whom you play with - may be as bad as a flashback to Everquest I.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Frying Doom
#1475 - 2012-12-28 14:18:06 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Edit to your edit: Yeah my wife has the same thing she is a WOW player, she gets invited to groups all the time and run off doing dungeons. Same people for the last 7 years.


It's not even WoW. These days every MMO adapted to the new restriction people have with their RL. I can name you a number of MMOs where doing stuff is within the time restrictions adults with responsibilities have.
Only EvE is lagging behind - and it's an huge mistake - hi sec and WHs are the only functioning and modern parts of the game that are easily accessible to a modern (crappy) life playerbase. Low is already higher commitment (unless you just want to run exploration / FW farm), null sec - depending on whom you play with - may be as bad as a flashback to Everquest I.

Well the follow on from that would have to be

How do we sculpt Null so that it is more casual player friendly?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1476 - 2012-12-28 14:20:46 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nessa Aldeen wrote:
Warning: Long post and no TLDR.

I had been in null sec for a long while, and I have witnessed massive amounts of iskies made in null sec. The position that null sec needs more buff is ridiculous...


It's not just about making ISK. It's about extending the range of viable activities so that there are other things to do than smoosh red pluses.

Oh and 0.0 ISK making is only somewhat better than hi-sec, and pales besides W-space. What do you consider "massive"?

Maybe it used to pale compared to WH space but prices have dropped a lot and now running plexes in Null are not much worse of than doing them in a WH.


I'd be utterly shocked to learn that T3 prices have fallen so far that working C5/C6 sites is only getting the ~100M/hr that sov 0.0 anoms top out at.

Exploration Plexes can pay more, but they're not reliable or scalable in the same way.

I must have missed anything other than a worm hole moving being reliable in a wormhole.

Also I did not think you needed anywhere near the level of firepower (risk) to do a plex than you do a C5 or C6 site.


It depends on the plex, frankly.

Even in these troubled times, the population density of 0.0 is much higher than W-space. High value 0.0 plexes just aren't common enough or accessible enough to use as a "baseline income" yardstick. In fact so many things about 0.0 are different from W-space that they probably have less in common than 0.0 does with empire.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1477 - 2012-12-28 14:21:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Edit to your edit: Yeah my wife has the same thing she is a WOW player, she gets invited to groups all the time and run off doing dungeons. Same people for the last 7 years.


It's not even WoW. These days every MMO adapted to the new restriction people have with their RL. I can name you a number of MMOs where doing stuff is within the time restrictions adults with responsibilities have.
Only EvE is lagging behind - and it's an huge mistake - hi sec and WHs are the only functioning and modern parts of the game that are easily accessible to a modern (crappy) life playerbase. Low is already higher commitment (unless you just want to run exploration / FW farm), null sec - depending on whom you play with - may be as bad as a flashback to Everquest I.


What new restrictions do people have on their RL?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1478 - 2012-12-28 14:28:18 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Edit to your edit: Yeah my wife has the same thing she is a WOW player, she gets invited to groups all the time and run off doing dungeons. Same people for the last 7 years.


It's not even WoW. These days every MMO adapted to the new restriction people have with their RL. I can name you a number of MMOs where doing stuff is within the time restrictions adults with responsibilities have.
Only EvE is lagging behind - and it's an huge mistake - hi sec and WHs are the only functioning and modern parts of the game that are easily accessible to a modern (crappy) life playerbase. Low is already higher commitment (unless you just want to run exploration / FW farm), null sec - depending on whom you play with - may be as bad as a flashback to Everquest I.

Well the follow on from that would have to be

How do we sculpt Null so that it is more casual player friendly?


Larger group of people with common interest can work. Once you reach a point, there will always be people online so when you are on does not matter as much but it's PvP so people will look for any advantage they can get because they are competitive. The very way SOV is designed prevent some people from doing it just like a 3 man guild can't really aspire to do high end raiding.

Numbers will always be a powerfull tool of it`s own unless they ewre to limit how many fight per day an alliance can do and how many ship per battle can be brought. Some people might argue that it would promote flight skill since you could not "out blob" the enemy but it also completely nullify other skills such as coordinating more player.
Frying Doom
#1479 - 2012-12-28 14:32:30 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Edit to your edit: Yeah my wife has the same thing she is a WOW player, she gets invited to groups all the time and run off doing dungeons. Same people for the last 7 years.


It's not even WoW. These days every MMO adapted to the new restriction people have with their RL. I can name you a number of MMOs where doing stuff is within the time restrictions adults with responsibilities have.
Only EvE is lagging behind - and it's an huge mistake - hi sec and WHs are the only functioning and modern parts of the game that are easily accessible to a modern (crappy) life playerbase. Low is already higher commitment (unless you just want to run exploration / FW farm), null sec - depending on whom you play with - may be as bad as a flashback to Everquest I.


What new restrictions do people have on their RL?

Really? really?

I have missed this country where people don't need to work or look after kids or have to do other things and are free to play all year long.

Please tell me the name of this country?

is it yourdeamingpal?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1480 - 2012-12-28 14:36:54 UTC
Excuse me, but like always, real life and real life occupations have jack poo to do with any online game and that includes EVE.

Don't even think about coming with anything that even remotely suggests that EVE is "unfair" because some people may or may not have a real life.