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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1321 - 2012-12-27 16:09:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Whenever someone says "you want to make it so highsec industrialists can't compete" they mean "you want to make it so nullsec industrialists can compete with us! **** THE SKY IS FALLING WE HAVE TO EVACUATE"

Honestly, why should *anyplace* in space be better than the most civilized regions with the highest population density for T1 production?

All the reasons come down to "we are elite nullsec players, we work harder so we deserve the best of everything" and that is selfish, self-entitled bullcrap.



You're seriously asking why hi-sec shouldn't be the best space and in the same breath calling 0.0ers entitled? Roll

OK.

"Best for the base" is a far cry from "the best space".

There is a concept called "baseline functionality", it's essential to all products (and a game is a product).
It's the minimum essential to make the product what it is.

T1 production is part of the baseline functionality of EvE.
T1 ships, low class ore availability, and mission availability are baseline functionality.

You are trying to argue that people should need to work extra to be able to have full access to that.

The wrong you have is so deep I cannot begin to contemplate where you could get it from.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1322 - 2012-12-27 16:12:14 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Let's not forget the ridiculous pulled-from-butt "lore" arguments.

I'm pretty sure this guy is a goon plant to make hisec whiners look even more ********.

The other possibilities are too horrifying to imagine.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Robert J. Hanlon

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1323 - 2012-12-27 16:17:12 UTC
Since nobody can dispute my case, they are resorting to insulting me on NPC corp alts.

I think that means I've won the thread.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1324 - 2012-12-27 16:26:21 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Whenever someone says "you want to make it so highsec industrialists can't compete" they mean "you want to make it so nullsec industrialists can compete with us! **** THE SKY IS FALLING WE HAVE TO EVACUATE"

Honestly, why should *anyplace* in space be better than the most civilized regions with the highest population density for T1 production?

All the reasons come down to "we are elite nullsec players, we work harder so we deserve the best of everything" and that is selfish, self-entitled bullcrap.



You're seriously asking why hi-sec shouldn't be the best space and in the same breath calling 0.0ers entitled? Roll

OK.

"Best for the base" is a far cry from "the best space".

There is a concept called "baseline functionality", it's essential to all products (and a game is a product).
It's the minimum essential to make the product what it is.

T1 production is part of the baseline functionality of EvE.
T1 ships, low class ore availability, and mission availability are baseline functionality.

You are trying to argue that people should need to work extra to be able to have full access to that.o

The wrong you have is so deep I cannot begin to contemplate where you could get it from.


Allow me to.assist your contemplation. The problem is caused by your strawman attempts to conflate "production is more efficient in 0.0" with "production is only possible in 0.0".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1325 - 2012-12-27 16:27:25 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

1. This is not whine. I don't care about 0.0. It is in the past of my Eve game.
However what do you offer to "new players" (we speak about message to them here)? Join big group? Or you can show one (!!!) new (1-2 years) alliance which took his part of 0.0 kicked old ones? And not alliance who just joined "big blue" but actually took space?

2. Ok. You say it is possible. Then give exact numbers which would make this balance good. How many percents you would remove from rewards in high-sec to compensate cynos? And there is next question already: why did you give this number and not another.

3. I see you agree here. So do it! Make risk/reward in 0.0 better than in high-sec. Why ask CCP to do your job?


1. It was a huge whine about blues. Us personally? We offer amazing support for newbees, free ships, free isk, lots of content, and mentors to help you learn the game as well as find out what you like to do. That's part of the beauty of nullsec we can design our own newbie programs which in our case is very successful.

2. Exact numbers require testing but I'd say making the maximum available refine rate in highsec be 70% is a good start. This is a focus on industry though not everything else.

3. We ask for CCP to do it because its game mechanics that are keeping highsec rewards high and nullsec rewards low relating to industry. We aren't game designers so it isn't our job.

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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1326 - 2012-12-27 16:31:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

"Best for the base" is a far cry from "the best space".

There is a concept called "baseline functionality", it's essential to all products (and a game is a product).
It's the minimum essential to make the product what it is.

T1 production is part of the baseline functionality of EvE.
T1 ships, low class ore availability, and mission availability are baseline functionality.

You are trying to argue that people should need to work extra to be able to have full access to that.o

The wrong you have is so deep I cannot begin to contemplate where you could get it from.


Allow me to.assist your contemplation. The problem is caused by your strawman attempts to conflate "production is more efficient in 0.0" with "production is only possible in 0.0".

Why should T1 production (not production in general, just T1 production of subcapital ships, modules and ammo) be better anywhere but in the heart of civilization?

You haven't addressed that question with any justification, you just keep crying "you're wrong!" which is not an argument, it's just contradiction.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1327 - 2012-12-27 16:38:41 UTC
Who says hisec is the "heart of civilization"? Sov 0.0 is where players can build their own civilization, and I see no reason why they should be limited by game mechanics to building one that's inferior to the example provided in the NPC area.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1328 - 2012-12-27 16:47:28 UTC
It might not be where your heart is, but raw numbers and the design of the game both from a mechanics and lore perspective say it is.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1329 - 2012-12-27 16:55:27 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
It might not be where your heart is, but raw numbers and the design of the game both from a mechanics and lore perspective say it is.


Show us these raw numbers :allears:.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1330 - 2012-12-27 16:55:31 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
It might not be where your heart is, but raw numbers and the design of the game both from a mechanics and lore perspective say it is.


So your argument is:

"All the best facilities are in hisec, so not surprisingly that's where most of the players are, therefore all the best facilities should be in hi-sec"

With circular reasoning like that, you should be in the merry-go-round business.

Hey let's apply your logic to ship balancing too

"Dramiels are far more powerful than any other frigate, therefore everyone is flying Dramiels, therefore CCP should buff Dramiels"

But yeah what's actually going to happen is that hi-sec is going to get the same treatment that the Dramiel got this year, and it'll be good but not the best at everything. Because a game with only 1 viable choice to make is a bad game.

Except in Buzzy Warstl Land, I guess.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1331 - 2012-12-27 16:56:33 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
It might not be where your heart is, but raw numbers and the design of the game both from a mechanics and lore perspective say it is.


So why should players be unable to build a better civilisation than NPCs?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1332 - 2012-12-27 17:09:55 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Since nobody can dispute my case, they are resorting to insulting me on NPC corp alts.

I think that means I've won the thread.


You mean your literally 20th different grasping at straws argument?

You lost all credibility 30 pages ago.

Now you're just a sideshow.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1333 - 2012-12-27 17:13:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
It might not be where your heart is, but raw numbers and the design of the game both from a mechanics and lore perspective say it is.


So your argument is:

"All the best facilities are in hisec, so not surprisingly that's where most of the players are, therefore all the best facilities should be in hi-sec"

With circular reasoning like that, you should be in the merry-go-round business.

Hey let's apply your logic to ship balancing too

"Dramiels are far more powerful than any other frigate, therefore everyone is flying Dramiels, therefore CCP should buff Dramiels"

But yeah what's actually going to happen is that hi-sec is going to get the same treatment that the Dramiel got this year, and it'll be good but not the best at everything. Because a game with only 1 viable choice to make is a bad game.

Except in Buzzy Warstl Land, I guess.

Pipe dreams are under the bed, this here's the nightmare closet.

If highsec industry gets a nerf it's going to be disallowing the production of T2 and better products in highsec assembly lines.

Because that actually makes sense, and is equivalent to your argument.

Highsec assembly lines will not be cut, nor will T1 production be nerfed, because not even Blizzard would be that stupid and CCP is better than that.
Malcanis wrote:

So why should players be unable to build a better civilisation than NPCs?

Why can't players produce BPO's and new ship designs?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1334 - 2012-12-27 17:20:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

So why should players be unable to build a better civilisation than NPCs?

Why can't players produce BPO's and new ship designs?[/quote]

Thanks, I had a bet that you wouldn't be able to answer my question and you won it for me.

I'll answer yours though, just so you can see what a straight answer (as opposed to a mere reply) looks like: I don't see any reason why players shouldn't be able to produce BPOs, with the obvious caveat that producing them should cost approximately as much as buying them. Anything that adds new supplychains and doesn't destroy others is a good addition to the game. Just as CCP changed NPC mineral sources, NPC POS fuels, NPC nanite paste and so so into player-built resources, they ought to follow through and get rid of NPC BPO sources. As an additional, very welcome bonus this would help reduce 0.0 space's reliance on hi-sec.

In fact I really like your BPO idea and I'm going to include it in my proposal to the CSM. Thanks for your help on this one, Buddy!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1335 - 2012-12-27 17:21:47 UTC
So, Buddy: Why shouldn't players be able to build a better civilisation than NPCs? Are you able to answer this question?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1336 - 2012-12-27 17:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Malcanis wrote:
Who says hisec is the "heart of civilization"? Sov 0.0 is where players can build their own civilization, and I see no reason why they should be limited by game mechanics to building one that's inferior to the example provided in the NPC area.

mmm...

High-sec is where:
- you start your Eve life
- you buy skillbooks
- you get stuff for manufacturing (blueprints, ...)
- you get stuff for researching (datacores, ...)
- you have the biggest markets
- you get faction stuff like Navy Cap Booster
- your security status means something aside from trolling "-10 DA BEST"
- ...?

And what is 0.0 (for game as a whole):
- place to get materials for booster production
- place to get high-grade deadspace modules
- place to get pirate ships(BPCs)
- place to get high-grade minerals
- ?

I could miss something for sure but it looks like 0.0 is just playground (if we speak about game as a whole). And high-sec looks really like "heart of civilization"

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1337 - 2012-12-27 17:30:04 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
So, Buddy: Why shouldn't players be able to build a better civilisation than NPCs? Are you able to answer this question?

Because CCP, in their limited wisdom, designed a game where every decision that would have allowed that to be the case has been answered with "the NPC's will always have an advantage".

You might think that they are wrong, but apart from capital ships that has always been the answer, and in the case of the capital ships there is a portion of the game where they still say "Not here. Here the NPC's rule and there will be no superior player ships here."

If you want to play a game where player driven content is superior in every way to NPC driven content keep looking, because this isn't it.

(and if you find such a game, PM me, because I've been looking for it, too)

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1338 - 2012-12-27 17:44:29 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Who says hisec is the "heart of civilization"? Sov 0.0 is where players can build their own civilization, and I see no reason why they should be limited by game mechanics to building one that's inferior to the example provided in the NPC area.

mmm...

High-sec is where:
- you start your Eve life
- you buy skillbooks
- you get stuff for manufacturing (blueprints, ...)
- you get stuff for researching (datacores, ...)
- you have the biggest markets
- you get faction stuff like Navy Cap Booster
- your security status means something aside from trolling "-10 DA BEST"
- ...?

And what is 0.0 (for game as a whole):
- place to get materials for booster production
- place to get high-grade deadspace modules
- place to get pirate ships(BPCs)
- place to get high-grade minerals
- ?

I could miss something for sure but it looks like 0.0 is just playground (if we speak about game as a whole). And high-sec looks really like "heart of civilization"



Again, you're arguing from your conclusions. "Hi-sec has these resources therefore hi-sec should have these resources".

PS you can get everything on your "0.0" list except booster materials from hi-sec.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1339 - 2012-12-27 17:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
So, Buddy: Why shouldn't players be able to build a better civilisation than NPCs? Are you able to answer this question?

Because CCP, in their limited wisdom, designed a game where every decision that would have allowed that to be the case has been answered with "the NPC's will always have an advantage".



So what is is what should be? EVE is a perfect, unchangable monolith that can't be altered in anyway from its original flawless conception?

Also, from where I'm sitting, EVE's lore and design seems to be predicated on the idea that capsuleers are virtually gods compared to those who aren't, and that CCP has been slowly but surely removing NPC monopolies for half a decade. Why should they stop now? What on earth makes you think they will?

EDIT: And your answer isn't an answer. It boils don't to "players shouldn't be able to build a better empire than the NPC because players can't build a better empire than the NPCs".

WHY shouldn't they be able to?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1340 - 2012-12-27 18:07:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
WHY shouldn't they be able to?


Because that would allow a situation even worse than we have now, where: not only is null monolithic, but there's no place a meaningful threat could be mounted from.