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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1221 - 2012-12-26 21:28:37 UTC
Ya, the "I want to plex my four accounts AFK in hisec" lobby.

A thousand tears for their travails.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1222 - 2012-12-26 21:30:02 UTC
You can plex your accounts just fine in a wormhole or nullsec.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#1223 - 2012-12-26 21:40:13 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
I've already covered the biggest reason why highsec can't be nerfed, but since this thread is getting longer and longer and the same tired non-arguments are being trotted out over and over again I'll repeat it:

There needs to be an aura of exclusivity to nullsec to keep things lively there. Not everyone can be allowed to play in sovereign nullsec.

The people who can't (or don't want to) currently play in sovereign nullsec need a place where they can play the game at all.

This means a place with effectively unlimited content (including industry) so it can hold all the players not currently in nullsec alliances (as well as however many nullsec alts as people care to make and play there).

This content has to provide some level of reward for players at any level of experience, which means that for players with both elite player and character skills it will provide significant rewards. The only way to prevent that is to literally kick players out if they are too good.

As such, I propose something that *could* be an effective nerf to highsec:

If it doesn't spawn or can't be built in in highsec it is contraband there.

There, no more deadspace fit pirate faction battleships blasting through L4 missions as fast as the players can pull them, nerf accomplished.


...


This is a reading comprehension failure on your part.

*Any* reward in the unlimited play area that allows players with less than perfect skills to continue to play the game will be abusable by players with perfect character skills and a full understanding of the mechanics.

It simply can't be any other way unless you deliberately cut off rewards for activities once the player or their character has grown past them.

Traditional RPG's deal with this by denying you experience for killing NPC's too weak for you, and credit for killing characters too weak for you.

EvE isn't written in a way that makes that possible apart from limiting what ships can go where, so no capital ships in highsec.

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


Thanks for your input dudes, you're really adding a lot to the thread and I appreciate that.

I disagree.

Firstly there doesn't need to be any aura to null, there's no absolute reason we need a highsec at all if the big alliances took on the training of newbs (I'm not arguing this).

Secondly there isn't a reason why a higher skillpoint player can dramatically increase the profitability of an area. Like mining. With one account a fully maxed mining barge makes maybe 10x what a newb does in a frigate but that's the limit. Sure more accounts help, but that's all bank in CCP's pocket. Botting is just cheating, plain and simple.

Or mission running, yeah you can tear through them with a better ship, but not that much faster, you still have to dock, get the mission, fly there, do it (maybe a bit faster), warp back, get your salvager, warp to the mission, salvage (maybe a bit faster) then dock then complete the mission and get the next one.

You can't improve this that much with SP, yeah you can go faster, it's not like you can do them in a minute.


I think it's fine if HighSec has some mining and manufacturing and missions, all the stuff it does now, and it will always have the trade hubs (they will always be in the safest place) and that these cater to advanced players.

If you want to do missions in HighSec for years that's cool, turning down all the options to go to low and null just keep running the same ones, ok, that's fine.

What's not fine is that industry elsewhere in the game is non-viable because HighSec has such a massive stranglehold over the industrial capacity in the game. This fully blocks amazing player generated content and really serves no purpose.



The main problem, as I see it, is people have got in to a mindset of "Industry should be in HighSec" and that is what this thread and all the discussion is trying to change. Null Empires should have an Industrial base of their own. It is necessary to make the source of their power vulnerable.

They don't need any help building it, they just need to be given the tools and free'd from the mad downhill slope where if you are an industrialist the most efficient thing to do is stay in your starter corp and never go more than 10 jumps from where you began the game.

It's insane and needs to be fixed.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1224 - 2012-12-26 21:48:39 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Null Empires should have an Industrial base of their own. It is necessary to make the source of their power vulnerable.


It's also been argued that in order for that source of power to be vulnerable, there needs to be a place beyond its reach where the threats can build. I think this an inevitable result of immortality and multiple avatars.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1225 - 2012-12-26 22:01:09 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
I must say, I wish people had started to push this industry issue a long time ago. It never crossed my mind how borked it was until people pointed it out. Furthermore, the hisec indy tears are a delicious torrent, and will only be better when the hammer actually falls.



I think a Huge part of this debate, which rests just under the surface, is the "I PLEX my accounts every month, I don't want to pay". I think that's why there are so many emotional half baked responses.

If everyone had to pay tenbux a month no questions to play then there would be a much greater sense of everyone wanting the game to be as good as possible. Who cares if you're income goes down 5-10%? It won't make much difference, unless you have an expensive thing you have to buy every month.

Now there is a group, who barely contribute to CCP (their efforts might help the game if they are traders or miners but not if they are mission runners, and they reduce the profits of those who do pay) who has great vested interest in HighSec being mega profitable.

They're the money changers in the temple (Seeing as it's Christmas I wreckon I'm allowed one biblical analogy).


Can you add something to the OPs about the "you're trying to force people out of highsec" claim?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1226 - 2012-12-26 22:08:15 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
ihcn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Low sec would quickly replace high sec, most T2 production with good revenue is small sized and a blockade runner is enough to make a number of T2 mods at a time. WHs after low sec and before null sec.

At this point you'd be forced to demand T2 to become exclusive to "pure" null sec but then, the "center-periphery" EvE economy model will short circuit, as the periphery now is the center, and the center is a.... non center any more.


This is a slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. Forcing t2 production into lowsec does not automatically mean everyone will start crying for t2 production to be pushed into nullsec.


And this is a "I can't read" argument, because I did not say AT ALL about forcing T2 production into lowsec. Just that low sec would become a natural "next best" location to do T2 production unless restrictions would only make null sec the place for T2 production.


And increasing lo sec traffic is bad?


No, I actually like low sec more than sov null, it's just not matching with the various GS posters desires.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1227 - 2012-12-26 22:30:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, I actually like low sec more than sov null, it's just not matching with the various GS posters desires.


Not against any lowsec buffs that are in addition to highsec nerfs and nullsec buffs (all relative to industry). So goonspiracy is really all you have, sad.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1228 - 2012-12-26 23:00:05 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, I actually like low sec more than sov null, it's just not matching with the various GS posters desires.


Not against any lowsec buffs that are in addition to highsec nerfs and nullsec buffs (all relative to industry). So goonspiracy is really all you have, sad.


Bolded the part you are mistakingly trying to impose on me since pages.

Yours is a lobby, one of several. Sounds less poetic and less dramatic but that's all to it.

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Tesal
#1229 - 2012-12-26 23:09:14 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, I actually like low sec more than sov null, it's just not matching with the various GS posters desires.


Not against any lowsec buffs that are in addition to highsec nerfs and nullsec buffs (all relative to industry). So goonspiracy is really all you have, sad.


Goons are in this thread posting the same stuff over and over with wicked glee.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#1230 - 2012-12-26 23:16:15 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
...



Can you add something to the OPs about the "you're trying to force people out of highsec" claim?



I've edited in a 17, hope that helps.

Thanks for your input in the thread btw, you make a lot of good points and take the words right out of my mouth a lot of the time.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#1231 - 2012-12-26 23:17:46 UTC
Tesal wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, I actually like low sec more than sov null, it's just not matching with the various GS posters desires.


Not against any lowsec buffs that are in addition to highsec nerfs and nullsec buffs (all relative to industry). So goonspiracy is really all you have, sad.


Goons are in this thread posting the same stuff over and over with wicked glee.



As a non-goon I'm surprised to find the quality of their posting has often been the best and most thoughtful. Weaselior wrote some bad posts but other than that they've been pretty strong.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1232 - 2012-12-26 23:24:27 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bolded the part you are mistakingly trying to impose on me since pages.

Yours is a lobby, one of several. Sounds less poetic and less dramatic but that's all to it.


You're the one that admitted you have an agenda and blindly continually accuse me of representing some sort of lobby. We don't have a lobby, those of us that do industry would like it to be fixed that is all. You have donned the tinfoil hat more than once in this thread as well so the assessment is valid. Now I could reference tons of these posts but its more effort than I am willing to spend on you at this point. You've had a few valid points but most of your posts are goonspiracy or :foxnews:. Goonspiracy is really all you have left.

To phrase it another way, if we did have a lobby do you think there would only be 5-6 of us posting here versus hordes?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1233 - 2012-12-26 23:31:39 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bolded the part you are mistakingly trying to impose on me since pages.

Yours is a lobby, one of several. Sounds less poetic and less dramatic but that's all to it.


You're the one that admitted you have an agenda and blindly continually accuse me of representing some sort of lobby. We don't have a lobby, those of us that do industry would like it to be fixed that is all. You have donned the tinfoil hat more than once in this thread as well so the assessment is valid. Now I could reference tons of these posts but its more effort than I am willing to spend on you at this point. You've had a few valid points but most of your posts are goonspiracy or :foxnews:. Goonspiracy is really all you have left.

To phrase it another way, if we did have a lobby do you think there would only be 5-6 of us posting here versus hordes?

Everyone is our alt or our pet.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1234 - 2012-12-26 23:38:53 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bolded the part you are mistakingly trying to impose on me since pages.

Yours is a lobby, one of several. Sounds less poetic and less dramatic but that's all to it.


You're the one that admitted you have an agenda and blindly continually accuse me of representing some sort of lobby. We don't have a lobby, those of us that do industry would like it to be fixed that is all. You have donned the tinfoil hat more than once in this thread as well so the assessment is valid. Now I could reference tons of these posts but its more effort than I am willing to spend on you at this point. You've had a few valid points but most of your posts are goonspiracy or :foxnews:. Goonspiracy is really all you have left.

To phrase it another way, if we did have a lobby do you think there would only be 5-6 of us posting here versus hordes?


Of course I have admitted, I tell things straight in face. I am alone so I can't really be a "lobby".
You, for the simple reason at least 2 of your high rank officers posted to support are doing a bit more serious and coordinated task than being simple "industry fans" and certainly in a vastly more powerful way that a loner or 5-10 randoms could hope to do.

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Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1235 - 2012-12-26 23:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord MuffloN
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bolded the part you are mistakingly trying to impose on me since pages.

Yours is a lobby, one of several. Sounds less poetic and less dramatic but that's all to it.


You're the one that admitted you have an agenda and blindly continually accuse me of representing some sort of lobby. We don't have a lobby, those of us that do industry would like it to be fixed that is all. You have donned the tinfoil hat more than once in this thread as well so the assessment is valid. Now I could reference tons of these posts but its more effort than I am willing to spend on you at this point. You've had a few valid points but most of your posts are goonspiracy or :foxnews:. Goonspiracy is really all you have left.

To phrase it another way, if we did have a lobby do you think there would only be 5-6 of us posting here versus hordes?


Of course I have admitted, I tell things straight in face. I am alone so I can't really be a "lobby".
You, for the simple reason at least 2 of your high rank officers posted to support are doing a bit more serious and coordinated task than being simple "industry fans" and certainly in a vastly more powerful way that a loner or 5-10 randoms could hope to do.


It's not like CFC or HBC members are prone to reading forums despite the brainrot caused by reading anything here for longer than two minutes, heck, sometimes two sentences is all that's needed.

Then the idea that they would post, if not to vent anger, terror and despair over reading the Lovecraftian argumentative and logical horrors that go on here but just post to take part in the discussions, it's preposterous!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1236 - 2012-12-26 23:51:11 UTC
Lord MuffloN wrote:
It's not like CFC or HBC members are prone to reading forums despite the brainrot caused by reading anything here for longer than two minutes, heck, sometimes two sentences is all that's needed.

Then the idea that they would post, if not to vent anger, terror and despair over reading the Lovecraftian argumentative and logical horrors that go on here but just post to take part in the discussions, it's preposterous!

I see you did it in just two sentences.

I congratulate your attempts to keep exposure to "EVEO GD" to a minimum.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1237 - 2012-12-26 23:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Of course I have admitted, I tell things straight in face. I am alone so I can't really be a "lobby".
You, for the simple reason at least 2 of your high rank officers posted to support are doing a bit more serious and coordinated task than being simple "industry fans" and certainly in a vastly more powerful way that a loner or 5-10 randoms could hope to do.


So a lobby is entirely dependent on the arbitrary number of people in it. What a convenient definition to place on something. Using that definition you can easily go "lol no you are a lobby," do a little hand waiving and then continue to disregard anything that person said no matter how well reasoned their post is without most people being the wiser. Lets not forget while doing this you can pretend to be the amazing white knight championing the cause for all these poor good good people you are protecting from the evil lobby. You really have this :foxnews: thing down. I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.

Is it so hard to believe that out of 10,000 of us there are those of us who would like to do industry and be able to profitably do it in our own space instead of relocating to highsec to ensure profitability? Instead of providing more hand waiving and derails can you bring a novel point to the thread?

We have some good reasons to nerf highsec industry and buff industry in other sec areas:

1. Risk : Reward being horribly out of whack,
2. NPC content being > player content,
3. Greater free advertising via "national" news outlets,
4. Other sec areas require social interaction to thrive.

A point to be settled:

5. Why do newbies join EVE, if the shenanigans that generate point 3 are a significant reason newbies take up EVE then this one will be in the "reason to nerf highsec and buff nullsec."

Points against nerfing highsec industry and buffing industry in other sec areas:

Nothing really that the OP does not already answer. Point 5 could go this way as well depending on the statistical analysis once data collection has ended. If I missed something please tell me and I'll edit this list.

E: I should note it was 5-10 randoms that pulled off that huge market manipulation with FW, worth over 5 trillion isk (I think). 5-10 people working together can make a huge difference.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1238 - 2012-12-26 23:59:11 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Of course I have admitted, I tell things straight in face. I am alone so I can't really be a "lobby".
You, for the simple reason at least 2 of your high rank officers posted to support are doing a bit more serious and coordinated task than being simple "industry fans" and certainly in a vastly more powerful way that a loner or 5-10 randoms could hope to do.

So a lobby is entirely dependent on the arbitrary number of people in it. What a convenient definition to place on something. Using that definition you can easily go "lol no you are a lobby," do a little hand waiving and then continue to disregard anything that person said no matter how well reasoned their post is without most people being the wiser. Lets not forget while doing this you can pretend to be the amazing white knight championing the cause for all these poor good good people you are protecting from the evil lobby. You really have this :foxnews: thing down. I can't comment on why Aryth, Mynna, and Weasilor posted here but I am going to guarantee they know more about industry than you do.

Is it so hard to believe that out of 10,000 of us there are those of us who would like to do industry and be able to profitably do it in our own space instead of relocating to highsec to ensure profitability? Instead of providing more hand waiving and derails can you bring a novel point to the thread?

Some of us are fighting a serious CONCORD protection addiction. It's hard to go back to working with others to stay safe after days spent under magical NPC protection.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1239 - 2012-12-27 00:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord MuffloN
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lord MuffloN wrote:
It's not like CFC or HBC members are prone to reading forums despite the brainrot caused by reading anything here for longer than two minutes, heck, sometimes two sentences is all that's needed.

Then the idea that they would post, if not to vent anger, terror and despair over reading the Lovecraftian argumentative and logical horrors that go on here but just post to take part in the discussions, it's preposterous!

I see you did it in just two sentences.

I congratulate your attempts to keep exposure to "EVEO GD" to a minimum.


I've slowly started going insane due to my total investment of my EVE lifesavings into high sec invention/t2 production and POS management, I wish I was joking, ask Luna Deos in GSF, he's been mentoring me. I'm set for full on Cthulu worship by Febuary, what's your reason for posting?

I guess now that my mind have started to rot, not only by the dark lords will, but reading sixty ******* pages of the same inane **** being repeated I should weigh in on it as someone who actually makes all his ISK in high sec industry, but I'd be disregarded as a shill so what's the point of repeating of a lot that's been said, people don't take part in the discussions here to broaden their viewes, but to reinforce their own narrative.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1240 - 2012-12-27 00:14:21 UTC
Lord MuffloN wrote:
I've slowly started going insane due to my total investment of my EVE lifesavings into high sec invention/t2 production and POS management, I wish I was joking, ask Luna Deos in GSF, he's been mentoring me. I'm set for full on Cthulu worship by Febuary, what's your reason for posting?

I guess now that my mind have started to rot, not only by the dark lords will, but reading sixty ******* pages of the same inane **** being repeated I should weigh in on it as someone who actually makes all his ISK in high sec industry, but I'd be disregarded as a shill so what's the point of repeating of a lot that's been said, people don't take part in the discussions here to broaden their viewes, but to reinforce their own narrative.

I'm afraid neither CONCORD not blue lists can protect you from an unabalanced EVE, or General Discussion.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?