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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1201 - 2012-12-26 19:49:07 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
There's a vast difference between a staging area and a resource collection area, and if what you are saying is true from a resource collection standpoint then highsec is obviously fairly balanced with NPC null and lowsec, so no problem.

This is not true and a red herring.

Green herring. You obviously don't go ratting in your staging system.

In before someone gets killed belt ratting in VFK in a carrier.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1202 - 2012-12-26 19:52:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Green herring. You obviously don't go ratting in your staging system.

In before someone gets killed belt ratting in VFK in a carrier.


The cyno gen gets enough carriers and I'm pretty sure my isktar killed Zed Mike in VFK :colbert:. I like green better though so yeah green herring.

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masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1203 - 2012-12-26 19:52:45 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
I've already covered the biggest reason why highsec can't be nerfed, but since this thread is getting longer and longer and the same tired non-arguments are being trotted out over and over again I'll repeat it:

There needs to be an aura of exclusivity to nullsec to keep things lively there. Not everyone can be allowed to play in sovereign nullsec.

The people who can't (or don't want to) currently play in sovereign nullsec need a place where they can play the game at all.

This means a place with effectively unlimited content (including industry) so it can hold all the players not currently in nullsec alliances (as well as however many nullsec alts as people care to make and play there).

This content has to provide some level of reward for players at any level of experience, which means that for players with both elite player and character skills it will provide significant rewards. The only way to prevent that is to literally kick players out if they are too good.

As such, I propose something that *could* be an effective nerf to highsec:

If it doesn't spawn or can't be built in in highsec it is contraband there.

There, no more deadspace fit pirate faction battleships blasting through L4 missions as fast as the players can pull them, nerf accomplished.


This is bull. There are tons of places besides nullsec where you can make money and "play the game at all".

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1204 - 2012-12-26 20:07:47 UTC
ihcn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Low sec would quickly replace high sec, most T2 production with good revenue is small sized and a blockade runner is enough to make a number of T2 mods at a time. WHs after low sec and before null sec.

At this point you'd be forced to demand T2 to become exclusive to "pure" null sec but then, the "center-periphery" EvE economy model will short circuit, as the periphery now is the center, and the center is a.... non center any more.


This is a slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. Forcing t2 production into lowsec does not automatically mean everyone will start crying for t2 production to be pushed into nullsec.


And this is a "I can't read" argument, because I did not say AT ALL about forcing T2 production into lowsec. Just that low sec would become a natural "next best" location to do T2 production unless restrictions would only make null sec the place for T2 production.

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masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1205 - 2012-12-26 20:09:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
ihcn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Low sec would quickly replace high sec, most T2 production with good revenue is small sized and a blockade runner is enough to make a number of T2 mods at a time. WHs after low sec and before null sec.

At this point you'd be forced to demand T2 to become exclusive to "pure" null sec but then, the "center-periphery" EvE economy model will short circuit, as the periphery now is the center, and the center is a.... non center any more.


This is a slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. Forcing t2 production into lowsec does not automatically mean everyone will start crying for t2 production to be pushed into nullsec.


And this is a "I can't read" argument, because I did not say AT ALL about forcing T2 production into lowsec. Just that low sec would become a natural "next best" location to do T2 production unless restrictions would only make null sec the place for T2 production.


And increasing lo sec traffic is bad?

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Tesal
#1206 - 2012-12-26 20:19:19 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
It is in line.

Rewards in lowsec and NCP null are significantly greater for those with the ability and inclination to grab them, and the rewards for the leaders of the nullsec alliances (those who actually play and win the social game instead of tagging along for the ride) are greater than can be had in any other part of space by a huge margin.

Not broken at all, I sense somebody hasn't realized they aren't playing the game right yet if they aren't reaping the rewards their space offers.


It really isn't there is almost no risk in highsec yet highsec makes far more isk/hr than lowsec and nullsec when it comes to industry. You try to ignore this fact but please continue going on about blues and goonspiracy. I have stock in tinfoil producing companies, buy more tinfoil.


The profits in empire aren't that great from industry. Many items sell at a loss at major hubs.
Tesal
#1207 - 2012-12-26 20:24:03 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You pro-status quo people are repeating the same already demolished arguments I'm going to make a gigantic list of all the counters to these things so we can just regurgitate a copy-paste to anyone who spews the same already handled argument.


People asserting things doesn't necessarily make it true.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1208 - 2012-12-26 20:31:35 UTC
Tesal wrote:
People asserting things doesn't necessarily make it true.


Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, try making cogent arguments against our points instead of going "nuh uh."

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1209 - 2012-12-26 20:32:09 UTC
Tesal wrote:
The profits in empire aren't that great from industry. Many items sell at a loss at major hubs.


The worst part about that is its still more profitable than nullsec industry.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1210 - 2012-12-26 20:32:21 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
People asserting things doesn't necessarily make it true.


Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, try making cogent arguments against our points instead of going "nuh uh."

Nuh uh, highsec is the future of EVE Online.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tesal
#1211 - 2012-12-26 20:40:21 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
The profits in empire aren't that great from industry. Many items sell at a loss at major hubs.


The worst part about that is its still more profitable than nullsec industry.


Nullsec can make a 10% or more profit on most anything because its a more difficult location. Its lower volume though. Thats already more than you make in hi-sec. I don't have much experience with Sov null so much, but I assume there is a markup there too.

Ironically, if hi-sec were nerfed and nullsec buffed, you would still be making next to nothing because of competition. So why bother.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#1212 - 2012-12-26 20:41:57 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
People asserting things doesn't necessarily make it true.


Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, try making cogent arguments against our points instead of going "nuh uh."

Nuh uh, highsec is the future of EVE Online.


I believe that hi seccers are the future unless we stop them now.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1213 - 2012-12-26 20:45:50 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tesal wrote:
People asserting things doesn't necessarily make it true.


Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, try making cogent arguments against our points instead of going "nuh uh."

Nuh uh, highsec is the future of EVE Online.


I believe that hi seccers are the future unless we stop them now.

You can't stop them, You CANT Nerf HighSec!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1214 - 2012-12-26 20:46:39 UTC
Tesal wrote:
The profits in empire aren't that great from industry. Many items sell at a loss at major hubs.


This isn't a point in your favor. This means that hisec industry is so easy that people pay for the privilege of doing it.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Tesal
#1215 - 2012-12-26 20:50:42 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Tesal wrote:
The profits in empire aren't that great from industry. Many items sell at a loss at major hubs.


This isn't a point in your favor. This means that hisec industry is so easy that people pay for the privilege of doing it.


Ouch! My spirit is crushed.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1216 - 2012-12-26 21:05:07 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Nullsec can make a 10% or more profit on most anything because its a more difficult location. Its lower volume though. Thats already more than you make in hi-sec. I don't have much experience with Sov null so much, but I assume there is a markup there too.

Ironically, if hi-sec were nerfed and nullsec buffed, you would still be making next to nothing because of competition. So why bother.


The item still costs the same to produce just because we don't have to pay the 3000 isk/hr job fee doesn't absolve us of other costs. Like has already been said in the thread, there's logistics and defense to worry about which plunge our profit far below highsec industry.

Why bother? To fix the game.

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1217 - 2012-12-26 21:13:42 UTC
If the almost entirety of industry wasn't done in the near-perfect safety of npc corps and hisec stations, the returns to all industry would grow enormously. Furthermore, if pos and security statuses were given appropriate bonuses, those returns could scale to account for added risk.

Right now the returns to industry are near or even below a big fat zero almost entirely across the board because it is so utterly borked.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1218 - 2012-12-26 21:16:06 UTC
I must say, I wish people had started to push this industry issue a long time ago. It never crossed my mind how borked it was until people pointed it out. Furthermore, the hisec indy tears are a delicious torrent, and will only be better when the hammer actually falls.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Tesal
#1219 - 2012-12-26 21:24:36 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
I must say, I wish people had started to push this industry issue a long time ago. It never crossed my mind how borked it was until people pointed it out. Furthermore, the hisec indy tears are a delicious torrent, and will only be better when the hammer actually falls.


Recent history suggests that hi-sec carebears have more pull with CCP than you. You may be waiting a good long while.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#1220 - 2012-12-26 21:24:55 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
I must say, I wish people had started to push this industry issue a long time ago. It never crossed my mind how borked it was until people pointed it out. Furthermore, the hisec indy tears are a delicious torrent, and will only be better when the hammer actually falls.



I think a Huge part of this debate, which rests just under the surface, is the "I PLEX my accounts every month, I don't want to pay". I think that's why there are so many emotional half baked responses.

If everyone had to pay tenbux a month no questions to play then there would be a much greater sense of everyone wanting the game to be as good as possible. Who cares if you're income goes down 5-10%? It won't make much difference, unless you have an expensive thing you have to buy every month.

Now there is a group, who barely contribute to CCP (their efforts might help the game if they are traders or miners but not if they are mission runners, and they reduce the profits of those who do pay) who has great vested interest in HighSec being mega profitable.

They're the money changers in the temple (Seeing as it's Christmas I wreckon I'm allowed one biblical analogy).