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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1161 - 2012-12-26 13:03:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Hence the hue and cry to get more people to come to null, and to buff/nerf to make it more interesting.

?

Roll


If you want, you can always try being a newbie again and join a blob....


Sounds like a campaign ad for the Brain Slug Party.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1162 - 2012-12-26 14:27:09 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Hence the hue and cry to get more people to come to null, and to buff/nerf to make it more interesting.

?

Roll


The cry is an attempt to balance highsec risk:reward and bring it inline with the rest of the game. Way to miss out on the last 57 pages of thread.

It is in line.

Rewards in lowsec and NCP null are significantly greater for those with the ability and inclination to grab them, and the rewards for the leaders of the nullsec alliances (those who actually play and win the social game instead of tagging along for the ride) are greater than can be had in any other part of space by a huge margin.

Not broken at all, I sense somebody hasn't realized they aren't playing the game right yet if they aren't reaping the rewards their space offers.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1163 - 2012-12-26 15:00:44 UTC
I've already covered the biggest reason why highsec can't be nerfed, but since this thread is getting longer and longer and the same tired non-arguments are being trotted out over and over again I'll repeat it:

There needs to be an aura of exclusivity to nullsec to keep things lively there. Not everyone can be allowed to play in sovereign nullsec.

The people who can't (or don't want to) currently play in sovereign nullsec need a place where they can play the game at all.

This means a place with effectively unlimited content (including industry) so it can hold all the players not currently in nullsec alliances (as well as however many nullsec alts as people care to make and play there).

This content has to provide some level of reward for players at any level of experience, which means that for players with both elite player and character skills it will provide significant rewards. The only way to prevent that is to literally kick players out if they are too good.

As such, I propose something that *could* be an effective nerf to highsec:

If it doesn't spawn or can't be built in in highsec it is contraband there.

There, no more deadspace fit pirate faction battleships blasting through L4 missions as fast as the players can pull them, nerf accomplished.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1164 - 2012-12-26 15:07:37 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
It is in line.

Rewards in lowsec and NCP null are significantly greater for those with the ability and inclination to grab them, and the rewards for the leaders of the nullsec alliances (those who actually play and win the social game instead of tagging along for the ride) are greater than can be had in any other part of space by a huge margin.

Not broken at all, I sense somebody hasn't realized they aren't playing the game right yet if they aren't reaping the rewards their space offers.


It really isn't there is almost no risk in highsec yet highsec makes far more isk/hr than lowsec and nullsec when it comes to industry. You try to ignore this fact but please continue going on about blues and goonspiracy. I have stock in tinfoil producing companies, buy more tinfoil.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1165 - 2012-12-26 15:12:08 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:

What CCP intends is: Harvest, Build, Destory. In endless cycle. What happens when everybody is blue (or runs away "we didn't want that space anyway"). Well if you are all friends the third link in the chain does not happen. So, maybe CCP does not intended null to do all friends afterall? Doesn't everybody keep saying this is a PvP game?


There are far too many spergs for everything to become blue. You all love to whine about blues, really you can't get enough of it. What is stopping you from getting blues and attacking us? Nothing, nullsec is for empire building, you aren't going to kill an empire with your 10 man gang. I don't care how many times you killed Arthas with that 10 man raid it doesn't happen like that in EVE. The space is there for you to take if you want it, we built ours up, you can build yourself a war machine and challenge us. That's the beauty of nullsec you can build what you want but you have to protect it from others.

You insinuating that CCP doesn't want us to make friends and be social in an MMO is just plain moronic.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1166 - 2012-12-26 15:16:10 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No, they entertrain a vision where they build an all encompassing empire that spans the whole null sec (and not only there), where people live in their farms yet their non ISK faucet productions HAVE to have high revenue (competition even adjacent system neighbours? What's that? We SHALL mine all together megacyte at 10k per unit), where any opposition is crushed (yet demand of ~gudfites~), where the whole other players HAVE to play "as intended" else "they are playing wrong", where they control whatever markets they want yet it's everybody else's fault if stuff is not sitting at their home... Where everybody in the end is a lovely working and taxed ant under the wise directions of the Queen (the More Equals among Equals).

Basically the perfect incarnation of an all encompassing and swallowing para-socialist utopia, with specific EvE mechanics created or twisted to avoid it ends in the unavoidable dead ends all the socialist utopias meet: ~real human egos and greed~, debt, taxes, down levelling, on long term, meritocracy ban that leads to apathy and self disintegration.


You're supposed to be one of the bright ones here what are you doing posting that massive whine? No one wants anymore isk faucets than there are already. I've already advocated against isk faucets in this thread. You can't tell me people building nice things in nullsec won't attract other people who want to smash and destroy nice things either. Farms and fields is a good system it just needs to be implemented. Part of that implementation includes nerfing highsec industry to bring it in-line with its risk and allow the other sec areas to have reward from industry proportional with the intrinsic risk of the area.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1167 - 2012-12-26 15:18:19 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
I've already covered the biggest reason why highsec can't be nerfed, but since this thread is getting longer and longer and the same tired non-arguments are being trotted out over and over again I'll repeat it:

There needs to be an aura of exclusivity to nullsec to keep things lively there. Not everyone can be allowed to play in sovereign nullsec.

The people who can't (or don't want to) currently play in sovereign nullsec need a place where they can play the game at all.

This means a place with effectively unlimited content (including industry) so it can hold all the players not currently in nullsec alliances (as well as however many nullsec alts as people care to make and play there).

This content has to provide some level of reward for players at any level of experience, which means that for players with both elite player and character skills it will provide significant rewards. The only way to prevent that is to literally kick players out if they are too good.

As such, I propose something that *could* be an effective nerf to highsec:

If it doesn't spawn or can't be built in in highsec it is contraband there.

There, no more deadspace fit pirate faction battleships blasting through L4 missions as fast as the players can pull them, nerf accomplished.


Okay this is a big "stop trying to force people into nullsec" the OP answers this thankfully:

13) This is just about some players trying to force everyone to play like them.

- It really isn’t, diversity in the game is obviously really important, the vast majority of players specialise and that is a good thing. This is about balancing the regions of the game.

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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1168 - 2012-12-26 15:37:22 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
I've already covered the biggest reason why highsec can't be nerfed, but since this thread is getting longer and longer and the same tired non-arguments are being trotted out over and over again I'll repeat it:

There needs to be an aura of exclusivity to nullsec to keep things lively there. Not everyone can be allowed to play in sovereign nullsec.

The people who can't (or don't want to) currently play in sovereign nullsec need a place where they can play the game at all.

This means a place with effectively unlimited content (including industry) so it can hold all the players not currently in nullsec alliances (as well as however many nullsec alts as people care to make and play there).

This content has to provide some level of reward for players at any level of experience, which means that for players with both elite player and character skills it will provide significant rewards. The only way to prevent that is to literally kick players out if they are too good.

As such, I propose something that *could* be an effective nerf to highsec:

If it doesn't spawn or can't be built in in highsec it is contraband there.

There, no more deadspace fit pirate faction battleships blasting through L4 missions as fast as the players can pull them, nerf accomplished.


Okay this is a big "stop trying to force people into nullsec" the OP answers this thankfully:

13) This is just about some players trying to force everyone to play like them.

- It really isn’t, diversity in the game is obviously really important, the vast majority of players specialise and that is a good thing. This is about balancing the regions of the game.

This is a reading comprehension failure on your part.

*Any* reward in the unlimited play area that allows players with less than perfect skills to continue to play the game will be abusable by players with perfect character skills and a full understanding of the mechanics.

It simply can't be any other way unless you deliberately cut off rewards for activities once the player or their character has grown past them.

Traditional RPG's deal with this by denying you experience for killing NPC's too weak for you, and credit for killing characters too weak for you.

EvE isn't written in a way that makes that possible apart from limiting what ships can go where, so no capital ships in highsec.

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1169 - 2012-12-26 15:43:36 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
[Okay this is a big "stop trying to force people into nullsec" the OP answers this thankfully:

13) This is just about some players trying to force everyone to play like them.

- It really isn’t, diversity in the game is obviously really important, the vast majority of players specialise and that is a good thing. This is about balancing the regions of the game.


"No it's not" is hardly a rebuttal.

People are building effective empires in null, they are exercising power. Working as intended. The game mechanics are fine... it's all about getting more players into the "wider" game. Farms and fields, reinvigorating industry, increasing outpost capacity, nerfing NPCs corps, all of it. Because as it stands the current empires are really threatened by only one thing: boredom.

As it turns out, administering a secure empire (the kind that might actually attract settler types) is apparently a hell of a lot less interesting than conquest and even fewer people get to play pivotal roles. So the idea is to adjust the game mechanics to handle the stuff the players don't want to.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1170 - 2012-12-26 15:48:10 UTC
I just noticed something: normal nullsec NPC content doesn't include any capital ships.

Since it's PvE that provides most of the actual rewards, maybe there's a hook for the people that feel cheated by the risk:reward ratio for nullsec.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1171 - 2012-12-26 16:00:04 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


So now we change to carrier ratting. Yeah CCP doesn't want that its been said in a dev blog before. Next waffle please.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1172 - 2012-12-26 16:05:41 UTC
Malphilos wrote:

"No it's not" is hardly a rebuttal.

People are building effective empires in null, they are exercising power. Working as intended. The game mechanics are fine... it's all about getting more players into the "wider" game. Farms and fields, reinvigorating industry, increasing outpost capacity, nerfing NPCs corps, all of it. Because as it stands the current empires are really threatened by only one thing: boredom.

As it turns out, administering a secure empire (the kind that might actually attract settler types) is apparently a hell of a lot less interesting than conquest and even fewer people get to play pivotal roles. So the idea is to adjust the game mechanics to handle the stuff the players don't want to.


Yes it is, it is a great rebuttal. Game mechanics related to industry are broken hence the entire existence of this thread. One highsec system Sobaseki has more industrial capability than the entirety of nullsec. You pro-status quo people are repeating the same already demolished arguments I'm going to make a gigantic list of all the counters to these things so we can just regurgitate a copy-paste to anyone who spews the same already handled argument.

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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1173 - 2012-12-26 16:06:40 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


So now we change to carrier ratting. Yeah CCP doesn't want that its been said in a dev blog before. Next waffle please.

Carrier ratting is normal in nullsec already. Do you even log in?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1174 - 2012-12-26 16:08:04 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


So now we change to carrier ratting. Yeah CCP doesn't want that its been said in a dev blog before. Next waffle please.

Carrier ratting is normal in nullsec already. Do you even log in?


And CCP have stated they want to do away with it.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1175 - 2012-12-26 16:13:11 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
You pro-status quo people are repeating the same already demolished arguments I'm going to make a gigantic list of all the counters to these things so we can just regurgitate a copy-paste to anyone who spews the same already handled argument.

Wasn't this the OP? Or is that the joke
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1176 - 2012-12-26 16:13:46 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


So now we change to carrier ratting. Yeah CCP doesn't want that its been said in a dev blog before. Next waffle please.

Carrier ratting is normal in nullsec already. Do you even log in?


I log in more than the average goon. CCP has already stated they don't want it, probably because its really hard to catch smart, cautious ratters. I don't think they'd care if it meant more capital ships dieing.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1177 - 2012-12-26 16:15:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You pro-status quo people are repeating the same already demolished arguments I'm going to make a gigantic list of all the counters to these things so we can just regurgitate a copy-paste to anyone who spews the same already handled argument.

Wasn't this the OP? Or is that the joke


It is the op but these people who have had their arguments defeated before just keep spewing the same old thing like its a new argument. I was giving them benefit of the doubt and delivering well thought out posts but that's done now.

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Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#1178 - 2012-12-26 16:16:34 UTC
Lord MuffloN wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


So now we change to carrier ratting. Yeah CCP doesn't want that its been said in a dev blog before. Next waffle please.

Carrier ratting is normal in nullsec already. Do you even log in?


And CCP have stated they want to do away with it.

CCP says all sorts of things. I can't even fly a carrier (on any 'toon) and I would probably quit the game if they made a serious move in that direction.

It's just that stupid a move.

PvE pays, PvP costs. It's the way the game is written for all sorts of reasons. Top-end PvE content needs to be available for top end rewards, and top-end ships need to be the best for accessing that content.

Making PvE content available that requires big ships and pays very well is the best way to get people to put more of them at risk.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1179 - 2012-12-26 16:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
La Nariz wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No, they entertrain a vision where they build an all encompassing empire that spans the whole null sec (and not only there), where people live in their farms yet their non ISK faucet productions HAVE to have high revenue (competition even adjacent system neighbours? What's that? We SHALL mine all together megacyte at 10k per unit), where any opposition is crushed (yet demand of ~gudfites~), where the whole other players HAVE to play "as intended" else "they are playing wrong", where they control whatever markets they want yet it's everybody else's fault if stuff is not sitting at their home... Where everybody in the end is a lovely working and taxed ant under the wise directions of the Queen (the More Equals among Equals).

Basically the perfect incarnation of an all encompassing and swallowing para-socialist utopia, with specific EvE mechanics created or twisted to avoid it ends in the unavoidable dead ends all the socialist utopias meet: ~real human egos and greed~, debt, taxes, down levelling, on long term, meritocracy ban that leads to apathy and self disintegration.


You're supposed to be one of the bright ones here what are you doing posting that massive whine? No one wants anymore isk faucets than there are already. I've already advocated against isk faucets in this thread. You can't tell me people building nice things in nullsec won't attract other people who want to smash and destroy nice things either. Farms and fields is a good system it just needs to be implemented. Part of that implementation includes nerfing highsec industry to bring it in-line with its risk and allow the other sec areas to have reward from industry proportional with the intrinsic risk of the area.


It's not a whine, it's your future and I haven't talked about any ISK faucet so I don't know where you got that notion.

Edit: also as I have said in previous posts and nobody has had the guts to reply it, bringing in line hi sec with its risk means either removing hi sec or nerf hi sec by 1000%+. Because there's NO WAY to nerf a "safe" place enough to make an unsafe people more enticing.
You earn 5M per hour in hi sec doing L4 missions (a 400% nerf)? Still people won't find doing null sec content "worth it because in hi sec it's less ISK but safe".

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1180 - 2012-12-26 16:18:12 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Lord MuffloN wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

If that isn't enough for you, if you can't raise your rewards well past highsec levels using capital ships in their intended environment, the problem might not be with the game.


So now we change to carrier ratting. Yeah CCP doesn't want that its been said in a dev blog before. Next waffle please.

Carrier ratting is normal in nullsec already. Do you even log in?


And CCP have stated they want to do away with it.

CCP says all sorts of things. I can't even fly a carrier (on any 'toon) and I would probably quit the game if they made a serious move in that direction.

It's just that stupid a move.

PvE pays, PvP costs. It's the way the game is written for all sorts of reasons. Top-end PvE content needs to be available for top end rewards, and top-end ships need to be the best for accessing that content.

Making PvE content available that requires big ships and pays very well is the best way to get people to put more of them at risk.


Carrier ratting is ****** income too.

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