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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Author
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1121 - 2012-12-25 15:42:49 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
The guys that live in high sec, within a player run corp, who do not disband there corp and hide when someone war decs them, should be the guys reaping the most reward in high sec; NOT the guys in the NPC corps.

When people use the NPC corps as a sheild, there's an obvious problem. When so many people have no problem with disbanding a corp and rejoining an NPC corp just because there's a war dec, there's an obvious imbalance.

They wouldn't be abandoning corporations left and right if they were actually losing something of value!
The fact they do this without a care in the world makes it perfectly obvious that nothing of value is being lost.

That is not balance.

Just because people are stupid and don't make full use of the NPC corps and disband-recreating tricks doesn't mean those that get wardecced or risk losing things have to have an advantage. We also need to nerf local. Also, nerf player cooperation more. Also, nerf blobs.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1122 - 2012-12-25 15:56:46 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
*crickets*


Eh?

the joke is that you are ralph wiggum

also that you did not get the joke is part of the joke it's a very meta joke it is intended to fly over your head

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1123 - 2012-12-25 15:57:47 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
POKER ALICE wrote:

Some of what you say makes sense. I can see that someone in null having to actively defend their assets should be able to reason that effort against a reward that makes it worthwhile. As for the things I have being handed to me, I mine veld, plag, scord and omber. CCP doesnt do that for me. I run missions. Again, CCP does not do that for me. However, I suppose a tax would be fair enough to justify since I am doing it in Concord protected space. CCP gotta have their doughnuts I suppose.

Beyond that however, I do not feel I owe null sec anything.


That's right you owe nullsec nothing, this entire thread has nothing to do with owing nullsec anything, its all about balancing risk:reward.

Okay to bridge the understanding gap here lets do a thought experiment. Highsec industry is nerfed the almost free npc given resources have been vastly reduced. The oppressive NPC empires have raised taxes on everything. So you and your small group of friends decide you like mining and you aren't going to put up with that crap anymore. You and your friends begin a corporation, get a POS with refining mods, and set it up in highsec. Now your POS has much better refining and the tax of the oppressive npc empire isn't as arduous now that you can refine better.

Some other corporation gets mad that you are doing so well and decides that they want that to stop. So they wardec you and attack your POS.* Now you successfully defend your POS, so now you can continue to receive the benefit of having better refining than other people. One day one of your friends decides to get mouthy in local and angers a more powerful corporation. This more powerful corporation wardecs you and you fail at defending the POS, it is destroyed (same as surrendering by taking down the POS).* Now you no longer have better refining than other people.

In that experiment you and your friends built something to further a goal you set (being better miners). In the first scenario you made something valuable and defended it allowing you to have greater reward than others. In the second scenario you made something valuable and failed to defend it losing your advantage over other miners. In both scenarios no one had any advantage over each other using resources that were handed to you by NPCs.

*Excludes regular wardec evading shenanigans that should be fixed.


Its not about nerfing anymore its about change the game now..... I dont see how you can fixs that. How about people that starting the game and never leave the high sec..

That is absolutely WRONG.

What he described is EXACTLY how EVE is supposed to work. It is not "chaning" the game, it's fixing it.
High sec rewards were never intended to be tied to the NPC corps, which they currently are. You're supposed to be forming corporations and doing exactly what La Nariz described there.

That very player dynamic is what CCP expects of us, and not just in null, because that is what brings people to EVE. It is exactly that kind of gameplay that people like to hear about and what gets others excited about EVE. It is that gameplay that sets EVE apart from all other MMO's on the market.

NPC corps undermine the gameplay that CCP went to great length to provide the tools to facilitate. They expect us to take part in that stuff, not use the NPC corps to get around it.


Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1124 - 2012-12-25 16:11:26 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
NPC corps undermine the gameplay that CCP went to great length to provide the tools to facilitate. They expect us to take part in that stuff, not use the NPC corps to get around it.

Pretty sure undeccability is like the CONCORD npc protection, it's something you must buff constantly because otherwise people will unsub and EVE will die.

The true nature of EVE is afking with NPCs protecting you from any consequences of your idiocy or the like. By the way, buff freighter EHP.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1125 - 2012-12-25 16:21:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Just because people are stupid and don't make full use of the NPC corps and disband-recreating tricks doesn't mean those that get wardecced or risk losing things have to have an advantage. We also need to nerf local. Also, nerf player cooperation more. Also, nerf blobs.

Not an advantage, an actual benefit.

There should be something of value to defend. They aren't impacted in any way when they drop the corp, especially if they aren't running a PoS.

In null the incentive to grow a corp and an alliance is a result of the need to protect holdings. Things can be lost and have significant impact on the corp or alliance. What's a large high sec corporation fighting for? What reason do they have of growing into corporations that match the size of the large null corps? Are there even any goonlike high sec corps?

I never hear about the 1000 man strong high sec corp, and everytime I look at someones corp info it's always really small numbers of people. There are hundrds of thousands of high sec characters, it's a little odd that there aren't several dozen large high sec corporations or even alliances.

If you're a high sec corp, what's the point of going to war with another high sec corp?
What's the point of forming alliances?
What'sthe point of growing the corp?

Null wars are about sov, high sec corps should be going to war with each other over industry.
If no one actually has anything to lose, then what are they going to fight for?

The only reason they disband to get around the wardec is because they lose nothing.
They'd be less inclined to disband, and more inclined to grow proper corporations if they had something to lose and fight for.

Disbanding to avoid a war is fine, but that should be the same as surrendering, except that the other guys win nothing when the disbanding corp lost nothing. They should be able to disband as much as they like, but they should give something up for going back to near absolute safety.

The ability to gain more safety with no loss is wrong.
High sec corps that stick it out and fight, or stay docked, have as much a right to be rewarded for assuming that risk as anyone of us living in null.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1126 - 2012-12-25 16:27:41 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I never hear about the 1000 man strong high sec corp, and everytime I look at someones corp info it's always really small numbers of people. There are hundrds of thousands of high sec characters, it's a little odd that there aren't several dozen large high sec corporations or even alliances.

If you're a high sec corp, what's the point of going to war with another high sec corp?
What's the point of forming alliances?
What'sthe point of growing the corp?

There isn't. Highsec doesn't need ~blobbers~ and ~blue lists~, they have CONCORD.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1127 - 2012-12-25 16:33:17 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

There isn't. Highsec doesn't need ~blobbers~ and ~blue lists~, they have CONCORD.

Seriously.

It's a hell of a thing when the overbearing boringness of high sec is what makes null industry worthwhile.

And they wonder why "null doesn't like".
They make EVE look so ******* boring and then wonder why we don't like them.


Stop making EVE look like the dullest MMO ever you twats!
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#1128 - 2012-12-25 20:43:48 UTC
Quote:
That is absolutely WRONG.

What he described is EXACTLY how EVE is supposed to work. It is not "chaning" the game, it's fixing it.
High sec rewards were never intended to be tied to the NPC corps, which they currently are. You're supposed to be forming corporations and doing exactly what La Nariz described there.

That very player dynamic is what CCP expects of us, and not just in null, because that is what brings people to EVE. It is exactly that kind of gameplay that people like to hear about and what gets others excited about EVE. It is that gameplay that sets EVE apart from all other MMO's on the market.

NPC corps undermine the gameplay that CCP went to great length to provide the tools to facilitate. They expect us to take part in that stuff, not use the NPC corps to get around it.


Umm, I am in a player run corp. I dont like the folks that stay in the NPC corps anymore than you do. Youre preaching to the choir there. I do think there should be a mechanic to limit how long someone can stay in an NPC corp. However, I also think than when someone gets their arse kicked, they need a place to go and recover. They should not stay perpetually harassed. I am sure CCP would love to find a solution to that issue but it isnt easy to fix. You could say that in that case people just need to join stronger corps, but eventually you would end up with just a few mega corps. Nothing new would ever get off the ground. Not easy to fix and I suspect thats why it has not already been done. Could tax people that are in NPC corps 50% or so. Surely null could compete with that.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1129 - 2012-12-25 21:12:46 UTC
POKER ALICE wrote:
Could tax people that are in NPC corps 50% or so. Surely null could compete with that.

The freighter, booster and mining alts would be fine with this.

The missioning ones might have to continue the one man corp that achieves near wardec invulnerability by disbanding and reforming.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#1130 - 2012-12-25 21:33:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

Since youre not risk averse I imagine you go do all your work and everything that gets you money in enemy territory right?

not being risk averse and all.

Cause youd be more risk averse to be doing it all in blue territory

i do what makes me the most money: i do not flee from moneymaking opportunities because of the terror i might lose something

risk-averse is being unwilling to take positive expected return bets because of the terror of the possibility of loss


so you do all that in red space right? Not being risk averse and all?

I thought not

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1131 - 2012-12-25 21:38:29 UTC
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Antisocial Malkavian wrote:

Since youre not risk averse I imagine you go do all your work and everything that gets you money in enemy territory right?

not being risk averse and all.

Cause youd be more risk averse to be doing it all in blue territory

i do what makes me the most money: i do not flee from moneymaking opportunities because of the terror i might lose something

risk-averse is being unwilling to take positive expected return bets because of the terror of the possibility of loss

so you do all that in red space right? Not being risk averse and all?

I thought not

The best opportunities are in our space, which was you know developed by the players with stuff.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#1132 - 2012-12-25 21:45:49 UTC
Quote:

The freighter, booster and mining alts would be fine with this.

The missioning ones might have to continue the one man corp that achieves near wardec invulnerability by disbanding and reforming.



Well how would you have it then? I seriously doubt the one man corp is causing anyone any real grief in any way. That is pretty laughable.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1133 - 2012-12-25 21:54:01 UTC
POKER ALICE wrote:
Quote:
The freighter, booster and mining alts would be fine with this.

The missioning ones might have to continue the one man corp that achieves near wardec invulnerability by disbanding and reforming.

Well how would you have it then? I seriously doubt the one man corp is causing anyone any real grief in any way. That is pretty laughable.

Not any more than the NPC corps. So leave them as they are.

NPC corps are a wonderous part of new eden, where non-players drive the future.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#1134 - 2012-12-25 21:59:37 UTC
Quote:

NPC corps are a wonderous part of new eden, where non-players drive the future.



You offer no solution to anything but pick and prod at everything. Just as well I suppose. Not like anyone with any real interest in fixing anything ever reads these posts.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1135 - 2012-12-25 22:01:57 UTC
POKER ALICE wrote:
Quote:

NPC corps are a wonderous part of new eden, where non-players drive the future.



You offer no solution to anything but pick and prod at everything. Just as well I suppose. Not like anyone with any real interest in fixing anything ever reads these posts.

People have already mentioned the need to change slots in highsec, refine rates, etc etc.

You just musn't ever nerf highsec, so it's impossible.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1136 - 2012-12-25 22:08:40 UTC
POKER ALICE wrote:
Umm, I am in a player run corp. I dont like the folks that stay in the NPC corps anymore than you do. Youre preaching to the choir there. I do think there should be a mechanic to limit how long someone can stay in an NPC corp. However, I also think than when someone gets their arse kicked, they need a place to go and recover. They should not stay perpetually harassed. I am sure CCP would love to find a solution to that issue but it isnt easy to fix. You could say that in that case people just need to join stronger corps, but eventually you would end up with just a few mega corps. Nothing new would ever get off the ground. Not easy to fix and I suspect thats why it has not already been done. Could tax people that are in NPC corps 50% or so. Surely null could compete with that.


So you agree with me that player made things should be intrinsically better than npc given things? That was the point I was trying to make easier to understand with that thought experiment. The idea is that even with a nerf to highsec industry and buff to nullsec industry. People who choose to stay in highsec can mitigate some of the nerfs as long as they "build themselves up" and protect their investments like we'd have to do in nullsec. People who choose to use npc given things like concord protection, wardec immunity and cheap station facilities won't be able to compete with those players who built themselves up.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#1137 - 2012-12-25 22:14:36 UTC
Quote:

So you agree with me that player made things should be intrinsically better than npc given things? That was the point I was trying to make easier to understand with that thought experiment. The idea is that even with a nerf to highsec industry and buff to nullsec industry. People who choose to stay in highsec can mitigate some of the nerfs as long as they "build themselves up" and protect their investments like we'd have to do in nullsec. People who choose to use npc given things like concord protection, wardec immunity and cheap station facilities won't be able to compete with those players who built themselves up.



Yes, i can agree with that.

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#1138 - 2012-12-25 22:26:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarvos Telesto
cynthia greythorne wrote:
'High Sec may need to be nerfed in the future, as it is too rewarding for how risky it is.'

Define 'too', please.


Who think Hi sec is overpowered i mean people in hi sec earn to much money, well if empire become place where people earn like 10-20mil per day or like 3mil isk per lvl 4 mission nobody will play EvE, because economy die, people need isk to buy expensive stuf. Here a lot casuals who need isk, not eveyone is hardcore rich carebear with bilions in walet.

Ships are expensiv, for example cuasual who want buy battleship need spent a lot time while mission runing, that because casuals spent in game few hours per week, and this mean they need total like two week of total game play to afford battle ship like rookh, or tech 2 cruisers, again not everyone is hardcore carebear, in my opinion hi sec is well balanced.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1139 - 2012-12-25 22:57:17 UTC
Yeah, because when income is nerfed, ship prices won't go down or anything...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1140 - 2012-12-25 23:11:00 UTC
Tarvos Telesto wrote:
cynthia greythorne wrote:
'High Sec may need to be nerfed in the future, as it is too rewarding for how risky it is.'

Define 'too', please.


Who think Hi sec is overpowered i mean people in hi sec earn to much money, well if empire become place where people earn like 10-20mil per day or like 3mil isk per lvl 4 mission nobody will play EvE, because economy die, people need isk to buy expensive stuf. Here a lot casuals who need isk, not eveyone is hardcore rich carebear with bilions in walet.

Ships are expensiv, for example cuasual who want buy battleship need spent a lot time while mission runing, that because casuals spent in game few hours per week, and this mean they need total like two week of total game play to afford battle ship like rookh, or tech 2 cruisers, again not everyone is hardcore carebear, in my opinion hi sec is well balanced.


This is a "if you nerf highsec ship prices will go up and that is bad," and a "if you nerf highsec people will unsub."

Luckily the OP already answers this:

7) If High Sec were nerfed ship costs would increase massively and that is bad.

- The absolute price of ships doesn’t really matter, what matters is how much effort it takes to get set up with a ship that can compete, whether a battleship or a mining barge. With a more dynamic eco-system outside High Sec the barriers to entry for all professions would be lower and so the fact that an individual ship costs more would not matter.

16) I’ll quit if you nerf High Sec, so will many others, the game will crash and CCP will go bankrupt!

- Firstly if you are a person who will rage quit when they don’t get what they want how long will you stay in the game for anyway? You’re probably not a legacy player.

- Secondly people subscribe to EVE because it is awesome, and it’s gameplay makes it into the gaming press because of it’s awesomeness. This is what CCP need to protect for the long term health of the game and overall profitability, not pandering to an irrational few.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133