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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#561 - 2012-12-20 00:17:33 UTC
I'm discussing why, generally, NPC corp membership matters in terms of accessing higher level gameplay. The fact that unlimited perfect refining is accessible in NPC stations by NPC corps is just another example of being able to access high end gameplay with no need to open yourself to risks or plant and defend a flag.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#562 - 2012-12-20 00:19:46 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:

Things like making non-hisec industry viable are super easy fixes that dump a shitton of content-generating activities into nullsec and lowsec.


I don't think I'm buying that the proposed t2 move is part of some humanitarian mission. That beast is a call for a huge, game-changing null sec buff which I fail to see dumping "a ton" of content anywhere. Null sec can do these activities now. Moving t2 production to null sec would only be removing an ability high sec residents currently enjoy. If null seccers were bored before this change, they'll be just as bored afterward.

Varius Xeral wrote:
Nobody cares about pushing anyone anywhere; what matters is content for people where they already are, to make the most of the space they have.


If, as has been stated in this thread repeatedly, 71 percent of all characters exist in high sec, I'm forced to disagree with this statement also.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
How would moving T2 production out of npc stations affect the rest of the economy? It's all well and good to make a suggestion that sounds fair, but I can just feel the null corps salivating over the prospect of owning both the materials and ability to produce all t2 items/ships in the game. Oh yes high sec, please give us all T2 production! I'm sure that sounds awesome. But until I see some numbers on this I'm not signing off on moving all T2 production out of high sec forever. Virtually no one buys or uses t1 merchandise once they've been in the game a few months. High sec industry will be relegated to cap booster and shuttle production.

YK


Which is precisely why null sec wants it.
Which is precisely what this fellow said: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077


I guess I'm wondering when null gets bored with this, what's next? How much more of EvE's resources are moving to null? I'm fond of balance, but that t2 move would be a huge null buff. And it doesn't feel like balance. What's next? Lvl 4s, Kernite, and Omber? I think about all the high sec indy corps with a stated future goal of t2 production that, if t2 production is moved to null, will be changing their corp descriptive goals to things like: "becoming the leading cap booster producer in all of high sec," or "becoming the number one producer of amarr shuttles," or "Fly with us! We build t1 cruisers - all races!"

Wow, huh? What a shame.

YK
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#563 - 2012-12-20 00:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
As far as I'm aware, that is not what most people are asking for, and definitely not what I personally am suggesting.

What I and, I believe, others are suggesting is making nullsec and lowsec viable with hisec as a place to do industry.

Just limiting t2 to nullsec is fixing an engine with a sledgehammer, and completely ignores an even more content starved lowsec.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#564 - 2012-12-20 00:26:14 UTC
Quote:
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. But if you dont deserve it and we cant make you lose it, then we will ask CCP to nerf it.”




fixt

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2012-12-20 00:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Varius Xeral wrote:
I'm discussing why, generally, NPC corp membership matters in terms of accessing higher level gameplay. The fact that unlimited perfect refining is accessible in NPC stations by NPC corps is just another example of being able to access high end gameplay with no need to open yourself to risks or plant and defend a flag.

In most respects the highest levels of most activities occur in areas where being in an NPC corp provides no protection (or at least it was intended to, sometimes this fails). Industry and incursions are noteworthy exceptions. However, incursions have nerfed payouts in highsec (though whether of sufficient difference is debatable) leaving only industry without benefit of taking on increased risk. And indeed being in a player corp can still be done in such a way to eliminate any extra risks, making the difference minimal.

Also it should be remembered we are dealing with a large, indestructible, NPC planted flag. There is no need to defend it regardless of your corp.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#566 - 2012-12-20 00:31:27 UTC
Precisely, so hisec industry is currently one of the most glaring imbalances in the game. I'm glad we agree.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#567 - 2012-12-20 00:32:51 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Also it should be remembered we are dealing with a large, indestructible, NPC planted flag. There is no need to defend it regardless of your corp.

NPC corps in a NPC space with NPC guards. The ultimate evolution of reducing your risks.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#568 - 2012-12-20 00:34:07 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Precisely, so hisec industry is currently one of the most glaring imbalances in the game. I'm glad we agree.

Depends, if you think NPC corp members doing industry with perfect refine are the issue, no. If you believe perfect NPC refine in highsec is the issue, yes.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#569 - 2012-12-20 00:43:00 UTC
I apologize; I'm being cheeky while you've been eminently reasonable the entire time.

If the concern of people reading this, vested interests or not, is that proposed fixes sound dangerously short-sighted and incomplete, then I agree completely. That is often the problem with threads like this, and why I prefer to stay on the side of fundamental gameplay and away from specific mechanics.

I strongly believe that anything done in this area should be part of a comprehensive revamp, and would, as in almost every case, rather CCP do nothing than do something rushed and as a half-measure.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#570 - 2012-12-20 01:55:40 UTC
10/10 troll.

Risking a 3 billion isk ship for 50 million isk an hour is a phenomenal ratio, you really cant stretch it any thinner than that or people will say "**** this ****" and rage quit.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#571 - 2012-12-20 03:06:08 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
10/10 troll.

Risking a 3 billion isk ship for 50 million isk an hour is a phenomenal ratio, you really cant stretch it any thinner than that or people will say "**** this ****" and rage quit.

Who crammed so much stuff into the ship that it costs 3billion? I think there's people who would like to try for their drops...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#572 - 2012-12-20 07:05:43 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
People easily forget that all of this balancing discussion is fundamentally about the utterly gutted day-to-day gameplay throughout this game. Nullsec is currently running on a one to two year cycle of noob->cap pilot->eve end credits as you learn the game, lose or win a couple of wars, and then unsub because you've "seen it all". The worst part is that even this content is getting stale as the skills to null warfare become refined and the process routinized. This game desperately needs strong day-to-day, low maintenance, and accessible content to keep people interested, playing, and in space. The more people you have doing this, the more content there then is for everyone else in an exponentially progressing ladder.

Things like making non-hisec industry viable are super easy fixes that dump a shitton of content-generating activities into nullsec and lowsec. Nobody cares about pushing anyone anywhere; what matters is content for people where they already are, to make the most of the space they have.



Agreed, you can only import, fight and die so many times before it gets stale. What you want are the long sagas of a developing meta game as people do a simple set of activites more and more, always second, and third, guessing the other.

I think allowing people to build legit empires in null, self supporting and powerful, would bring a whole new life to the story EVE is. Drama is worth more when you are deeply invested.

Great point.



You said what I've been trying to say except you did it better.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tomar Martens
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#573 - 2012-12-20 07:27:46 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

[SNIP]

First, yes, nobody (or very few) are going to quit over nerfs of any kind, so theoretically CCP can nerf hi-sec income 50% and people will whine and moan but most will stay. However, most will also stay in hi-sec. So, all the change will do is apply a brake to the entire hi-sec, but it will NOT change the population dynamic. A precious few might say the hell with it and move to low/null/wh, but the majority will keep playing in hi-sec. They'll just have a lot less ISK to spend, which will slow the economy of the whole game. Who benefits? Nobody, really.

Second, while many will not quit, many will. I know folks that play EVE for relaxation, basically. They run missions, complexes, stuff like that. They chat with each other (Missions chat channel is a good example, all manner of things get talked about there in the evenings). It's nice. Like having coffee with friends after work, sort of.

[SNIP]



The bits I have left here pretty much reflect my position. I think the solution to the 'problem', if there is one, is to make it more attractive to go to low security space and more viable for folks who may be slightly risk-averse at the moment. There have been some good suggestions through these posts of ways to do that - including thoughts on gate camps and warp gates from 0 space to highsec.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#574 - 2012-12-20 07:39:33 UTC
Taria Katelo wrote:
if someone needs so many words to explain his opinion, then he is wrong anyways..


This has to be the singly most ridiculous thing I've EVER read. Congratulations on discounting pretty much all scientific and social understanding achieved by humanity thus far.

I'd stay away from doctors too mate, medicine is such a convoluted field that relies on so much textual communication that they must be wrong.

I really can't believe I just read that /wrists
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#575 - 2012-12-20 07:42:16 UTC
Welcme to eve-o gd, bro.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#576 - 2012-12-20 07:54:29 UTC
SegaPhoenix wrote:
Rather than a nerf to high-sec I would rather see a black market in lowsec and a buff in null.

Most of null space is borderline useless and should really be no less profitable than the best system in highsec.

Lowsec could use more signatures and anomalies even if they are mid-range at best.



An improvement of the game balance, so that the attacker isn't massively favoured relative to the victim, would make it less intimidating to visit low-sec and null-sec.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#577 - 2012-12-20 07:58:04 UTC
Taria Katelo wrote:
didnt read the huge wall of text you posted because if someone needs so many words to explain his opinion, then he is wrong anyways.


This is vile cowshit! Game balance is a complex issue, and cannot be debated intelligently in twitter-sized posts.

Also, the OP did not commit wall-of-text. Wall-of-text does not mean "writes a lot (so that it overwhelms my poor, feeble 'brain')". Wall-of-text means writing a very long text without dividing it into paragraphs, so that readability is greatly reduced.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#578 - 2012-12-20 08:05:53 UTC
Salpad wrote:
An improvement of the game balance, so that the attacker isn't massively favoured relative to the victim, would make it less intimidating to visit low-sec and null-sec.


The attacker has as much advantage as he gives himself, just as much the victim has disadvantaged himself.

Taking a wild stab here, none of what is discussed here has to do with new players first exploring low/null on their own. That is a new player experience issue, and an important one, but utterly irrelevant to discussions of fundamental gameplay mechanics.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#579 - 2012-12-20 10:03:44 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Salpad wrote:
An improvement of the game balance, so that the attacker isn't massively favoured relative to the victim, would make it less intimidating to visit low-sec and null-sec.


The attacker has as much advantage as he gives himself, just as much the victim has disadvantaged himself.

Taking a wild stab here, none of what is discussed here has to do with new players first exploring low/null on their own. That is a new player experience issue, and an important one, but utterly irrelevant to discussions of fundamental gameplay mechanics.


This is quite incorrect if you take size into consideration.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#580 - 2012-12-20 10:17:40 UTC
Salpad wrote:
SegaPhoenix wrote:
Rather than a nerf to high-sec I would rather see a black market in lowsec and a buff in null.

Most of null space is borderline useless and should really be no less profitable than the best system in highsec.

Lowsec could use more signatures and anomalies even if they are mid-range at best.



An improvement of the game balance, so that the attacker isn't massively favoured relative to the victim, would make it less intimidating to visit low-sec and null-sec.



The attacker is the one chosing when to attack. How are you going to stop people from picking fights they think they're likely to win and not picking fights they think they're likely to lose? Have a GM review each enounter for fairness?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016