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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#541 - 2012-12-19 20:24:33 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I was under the impression that it was possible to get higher refine rates in High sec stations, with just skills, than is possible in null sec.

The house always takes a cut, unless your standing is up to 6.7.

You can get perfect refining, but you have to work a little for it.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining covers it all under the refining section, though it only talks about the 6.7 standing you need for perfect refining, not the tax you pay when it's below that.

It also mentions that you can get perfect refining at outposts, either with improvements to make them equivalent to NPC stations or with perfect skills and an industry implant, though the station owner gets to set whatever tax rate they like so if you aren't the station owner *you* will never see that perfect refining rate.

Yes, but I thought that without ever increasing standing that you could get better refine rates in some stations in high sec than in null, just by traing the proper skills up.

Also,
Isn't it possible that through standing, and by refining in certian stations in high sec, that you can get perfect refine rates WITHOUT training all the proper skills to 5?



Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#542 - 2012-12-19 20:31:21 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


First of all, the game's actually made in a somewhat smart way. They put a lot of mediocre refining stations everywhere but also (too many imo) better refine stations, expecially in key systems where they planned for people to go refine.
Example: Tuurianas is a "Minmatar pocket" system inside deep Caldari space, there are 2 stations owned by Minmatar NPC corps so the Minmatar guys doing missions to i.e. raise their Caldari standing to above terrible can go there and do both refining and manufacturing.

In order to get good refining, however, you also have to have standings, they come by doing lots and lots of L4 missions and / or COSMOS. This also involves a somewhat counter-productive process, that is you will get terrible standings with null sec NPCs and this can greatly reduce the convenience / will to go in null sec.

One of the big issues I had back in my 0.0 days was exactly this: I was -9 standings vs the very agent I wanted to use. I had an alt I used to grind standings with them, but many other people who don't have a legion of alts were impaired. Imo it would be a great boon if people could go in 0.0 and not have such demotivators, there's enough difficulties as is.

Another factor to take into account is that low sec too has lots of stations and they would be partly nerfed in case of hi sec refining nerf too, else guys with good pockets can just JF stuff in, refine, get out. Now, low sec needs a lot but not further nerfs.

Yeah...

I started EVE 7 years ago. I am actually aware of how some things work. Aware enough to know that portions of what you wrote there is incorrect.

Specificly the need to run "lots and lots of lvl 4's and or cosmos" to get perfect refines in high sec.
That's wrong.

And I hardly doubt that there are many miners out there that are worried about there standing with a pirate faction. Or are they handing out lvl 4 and 5 mining missions in NPC null sec these days?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#543 - 2012-12-19 20:34:48 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I was under the impression that it was possible to get higher refine rates in High sec stations, with just skills, than is possible in null sec.

The house always takes a cut, unless your standing is up to 6.7.

You can get perfect refining, but you have to work a little for it.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining covers it all under the refining section, though it only talks about the 6.7 standing you need for perfect refining, not the tax you pay when it's below that.

It also mentions that you can get perfect refining at outposts, either with improvements to make them equivalent to NPC stations or with perfect skills and an industry implant, though the station owner gets to set whatever tax rate they like so if you aren't the station owner *you* will never see that perfect refining rate.

Yes, but I thought that without ever increasing standing that you could get better refine rates in some stations in high sec than in null, just by traing the proper skills up.

Also,
Isn't it possible that through standing, and by refining in certian stations in high sec, that you can get perfect refine rates WITHOUT training all the proper skills to 5?




In both NPC stations and Minmatar outposts you can get perfect refining with less than perfect refining skills.

The station owner gets their taxes still, in both cases.

With NPC stations you can reduce the tax with standing, with player owned stations you need to talk to the owner.

With a POS, use a http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Medium_Intensive_Refining_Array and you are better off than either, if I'm reading the specs right.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#544 - 2012-12-19 20:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I started EVE 7 years ago. I am actually aware of how some things work. Aware enough to know that portions of what you wrote there is incorrect.

Specificly the need to run "lots and lots of lvl 4's and or cosmos" to get perfect refines in high sec.
That's wrong.


You have always to look through the eyes of the new players, as they HAVE to be able to get to play the content.
Now, with 7 years under your belt sure it's easy to slap together a marauder and farm missions or toss some hundreds of millions and buy the various badges for COSMOS.
Try starting from zero and no game knowledge, I did not find the whole "go from L1 to L4" missions and grind lots of ISK so fast.


Natsett Amuinn wrote:

And I hardly doubt that there are many miners out there that are worried about there standing with a pirate faction. Or are they handing out lvl 4 and 5 mining missions in NPC null sec these days?


If you want to refine in NPC null sec you are better having standings. Even in case you are not a miner, the loot you get can be often reprocessed and then crafted into stuff you want.

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#545 - 2012-12-19 20:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I was under the impression that it was possible to get higher refine rates in High sec stations, with just skills, than is possible in null sec.

The house always takes a cut, unless your standing is up to 6.7.

You can get perfect refining, but you have to work a little for it.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining covers it all under the refining section, though it only talks about the 6.7 standing you need for perfect refining, not the tax you pay when it's below that.

It also mentions that you can get perfect refining at outposts, either with improvements to make them equivalent to NPC stations or with perfect skills and an industry implant, though the station owner gets to set whatever tax rate they like so if you aren't the station owner *you* will never see that perfect refining rate.

Yes, but I thought that without ever increasing standing that you could get better refine rates in some stations in high sec than in null, just by traing the proper skills up.

Also,
Isn't it possible that through standing, and by refining in certian stations in high sec, that you can get perfect refine rates WITHOUT training all the proper skills to 5?




In both NPC stations and Minmatar outposts you can get perfect refining with less than perfect refining skills.

The station owner gets their taxes still, in both cases.

With NPC stations you can reduce the tax with standing, with player owned stations you need to talk to the owner.

With a POS, use a http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Medium_Intensive_Refining_Array and you are better off than either, if I'm reading the specs right.

It's the first one I don't like.

I really feel that you should be in a player run corp, that has an office in that station, in order to get the perfect refine in an NPC station.

Nor do I think that that little change would have any drastic impact on anyone, especially new players who don't have all the skills trained anyways.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#546 - 2012-12-19 20:57:07 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

You have always to look through the eyes of the new players, as they HAVE to be able to get to play the content.
Now, with 7 years under your belt sure it's easy to slap together a marauder and farm missions or toss some hundreds of millions and buy the various badges for COSMOS.
Try starting from zero and no game knowledge, I did not find the whole "go from L1 to L4" missions and grind lots of ISK so fast.
.

I do not believe that lower refining caps for people not in a player run corp, refinging in an NPC station, would have any negative impact on a NEW player.

New players don't get perfect refine rates.

That's like saying that reducing the payout on lvl 4 missions will make things harder for new players. New players don't do lvl 4 missions.

And not getting perfect refine rates doesn't mean you get lower refine rates from day one, it just means you don't get it on whatever day it takes to train the appropriate skills without joining a player run corp.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#547 - 2012-12-19 21:03:50 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I do not believe that lower refining caps for people not in a player run corp, refinging in an NPC station, would have any negative impact on a NEW player.

New players don't get perfect refine rates.


Well it royally annoyed me to lose minerals like that.
After being suggested by the ISD in the rookie chat to start my career as a miner (they told that to all), I had to spend *hours* with a mining frigate. Then I painfully bought an industrial ship (Mammoth) and went 17 jumps to sell tritanium into a low sec station and then 17 jumps back.
And then I got it popped by one low sec run. That was my first loss.
My second loss came when I decided to try missions. First mission ever, I went to a NPC in Bei, he asked for a packet of cigarettes 23 jumps away, deep in low sec and through Rancer. Guess what happened next.

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Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#548 - 2012-12-19 21:08:20 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I was under the impression that it was possible to get higher refine rates in High sec stations, with just skills, than is possible in null sec.

The house always takes a cut, unless your standing is up to 6.7.

You can get perfect refining, but you have to work a little for it.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining covers it all under the refining section, though it only talks about the 6.7 standing you need for perfect refining, not the tax you pay when it's below that.

It also mentions that you can get perfect refining at outposts, either with improvements to make them equivalent to NPC stations or with perfect skills and an industry implant, though the station owner gets to set whatever tax rate they like so if you aren't the station owner *you* will never see that perfect refining rate.

Yes, but I thought that without ever increasing standing that you could get better refine rates in some stations in high sec than in null, just by traing the proper skills up.

Also,
Isn't it possible that through standing, and by refining in certian stations in high sec, that you can get perfect refine rates WITHOUT training all the proper skills to 5?






my understanding is that the only thing standings affect is the "We Take" part of it, skills on the other hand affect the "Unrecoverable" part of it, so based on that, you could never achieve perfect refining without both and even with that there's still only a 95.X% refine?
I can't speak about refining implants as I have not used them.

o/
Santa

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Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#549 - 2012-12-19 21:17:40 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
I know, but it means doing more than passively training a toon until you have perfect refining.

On the other hand, you can get perfect refining at a Minmatar outpost if you are the owner of it.
If Evelopedia is accurate, the owner of any particular outpost actually has the ability to make their station exceed highsec standards of industry in one area or another. Given that they are conquerable, I'm not sure how practical that ends up being with only one per system.

Maybe the fix to nullsec industry is simply to allow the planting of more outposts per system.


The player built outposts get bonuses to certain things, but over all are worse than highsec stations. Of the 4 outposts that can be dropped, the Minmatar one is the only one capable of perfect refine and only if it is upgraded.

I know not all nullsec resident would agree with me, but I could live 1 outpost per system and the idea that inherent nullsec risk means trucking blueprints, minerals and finished products between specialized outposts in seperate systems. However, if we are going to have specialized outposts, those outposts should be clearly better than the extremely safe NPC alternatives. I'm thinking double to triple the base number of research/industry slots, and the Minmatar station having a 45% base yield to start.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#550 - 2012-12-19 21:30:37 UTC
People easily forget that all of this balancing discussion is fundamentally about the utterly gutted day-to-day gameplay throughout this game. Nullsec is currently running on a one to two year cycle of noob->cap pilot->eve end credits as you learn the game, lose or win a couple of wars, and then unsub because you've "seen it all". The worst part is that even this content is getting stale as the skills to null warfare become refined and the process routinized. This game desperately needs strong day-to-day, low maintenance, and accessible content to keep people interested, playing, and in space. The more people you have doing this, the more content there then is for everyone else in an exponentially progressing ladder.

Things like making non-hisec industry viable are super easy fixes that dump a shitton of content-generating activities into nullsec and lowsec. Nobody cares about pushing anyone anywhere; what matters is content for people where they already are, to make the most of the space they have.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#551 - 2012-12-19 22:25:47 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
thinking double to triple the base number of research/industry slots, and the Minmatar station having a 45% base yield to start.


Even more than 45%. My 5J NPC null sec station has 50% base refine, which is on par with some hi sec stations.

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Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#552 - 2012-12-19 22:36:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
thinking double to triple the base number of research/industry slots, and the Minmatar station having a 45% base yield to start.


Even more than 45%. My 5J NPC null sec station has 50% base refine, which is on par with some hi sec stations.



I picked 45% because that is where you can get a perfect refine with good skills. 50% is fine too. Might need to rework some of the bonuses and upgrades in that case though, as upgrading the Minmatar outpost just for a 65% base yield is kind of pointless. Certainly not worth the billions is costs, as most people who refine are going to have the skills to get perfect at 50%.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#553 - 2012-12-19 22:52:16 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
People easily forget that all of this balancing discussion is fundamentally about the utterly gutted day-to-day gameplay throughout this game. Nullsec is currently running on a one to two year cycle of noob->cap pilot->eve end credits as you learn the game, lose or win a couple of wars, and then unsub because you've "seen it all". The worst part is that even this content is getting stale as the skills to null warfare become refined and the process routinized. This game desperately needs strong day-to-day, low maintenance, and accessible content to keep people interested, playing, and in space. The more people you have doing this, the more content there then is for everyone else in an exponentially progressing ladder.

Things like making non-hisec industry viable are super easy fixes that dump a shitton of content-generating activities into nullsec and lowsec. Nobody cares about pushing anyone anywhere; what matters is content for people where they already are, to make the most of the space they have.



Agreed, you can only import, fight and die so many times before it gets stale. What you want are the long sagas of a developing meta game as people do a simple set of activites more and more, always second, and third, guessing the other.

I think allowing people to build legit empires in null, self supporting and powerful, would bring a whole new life to the story EVE is. Drama is worth more when you are deeply invested.

Great point.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#554 - 2012-12-19 23:44:41 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
People easily forget that all of this balancing discussion is fundamentally about the utterly gutted day-to-day gameplay throughout this game. Nullsec is currently running on a one to two year cycle of noob->cap pilot->eve end credits as you learn the game, lose or win a couple of wars, and then unsub because you've "seen it all". .

Agreed, you can only import, fight and die so many times before it gets stale. What you want are the long sagas of a developing meta game as people do a simple set of activites more and more, always second, and third, guessing the other.

I think allowing people to build legit empires in null, self supporting and powerful, would bring a whole new life to the story EVE is. Drama is worth more when you are deeply invested.

Great point.

Heh, for all the jokes about when we will leave Deklein, it's pretty much true if there was no reason to stay & a reason to be elsewhere we'd just up and go. After the last supercaps and the like were done, of course. And after some blues took it over, no point letting space go to waste.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2012-12-19 23:52:58 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

It's the first one I don't like.

I really feel that you should be in a player run corp, that has an office in that station, in order to get the perfect refine in an NPC station.

Nor do I think that that little change would have any drastic impact on anyone, especially new players who don't have all the skills trained anyways.

Why is being in a player corp so important compared to other factors here? Also why the office in station? Is this in place of or in addition to standing requirements?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#556 - 2012-12-20 00:03:18 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Why is being in a player corp so important compared to other factors here?


Because an NPC corp can't be wardecked.

Forcing people to have a flag, plant a flag, and defend that flag if they want to access higher end gameplay (upper level industry) is a big part of content creation. It's the exact same problem with having no consequences to just safing up or running away in nullsec when reds come in your space. There need to be risks inherent in accessing higher end gameplay, and the greater the thing you want to build, the more people should be able to try and tear it down.

Right now you can build absolutely and absurdly enormous industrial chains all in the safety of hisec stations and with the anonymity of npc corps, which is utterly and completely broken, and against the very core of Eve gameplay as envisioned by the founders.


Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#557 - 2012-12-20 00:05:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

It's the first one I don't like.

I really feel that you should be in a player run corp, that has an office in that station, in order to get the perfect refine in an NPC station.

Nor do I think that that little change would have any drastic impact on anyone, especially new players who don't have all the skills trained anyways.

Why is being in a player corp so important compared to other factors here? Also why the office in station? Is this in place of or in addition to standing requirements?



CCP has noted that players that join player corps tend to stick around, play the game, and pay subscriptions more often than those that just stay in NPC corps. And I would wager that many of the successful NPC corp members who stick around are actually alts exploiting NPC corp wardec invulnerability for their trade/hauling characters.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#558 - 2012-12-20 00:09:21 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
CCP has noted that players that join player corps tend to stick around, play the game, and pay subscriptions more often than those that just stay in NPC corps. And I would wager that many of the successful NPC corp members who stick around are actually alts exploiting NPC corp wardec invulnerability for their trade/hauling characters.

>__> Ahem, I would never do that. Being non dec-able and only dying when someone ganks me is never something I would abu---

Oh whatever, yeah.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#559 - 2012-12-20 00:09:49 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Why is being in a player corp so important compared to other factors here?


Because an NPC corp can't be wardecked.

Forcing people to have a flag, plant a flag, and defend that flag if they want to access higher end gameplay (upper level industry) is a big part of content creation. It's the exact same problem with having no consequences to just safing up or running away in nullsec when reds come in your space. There need to be risks inherent in accessing higher end gameplay, and the greater the thing you want to build, the more people should be able to try and tear it down.

Right now you can build absolutely and absurdly enormous industrial chains all in the safety of hisec stations and with the anonymity of npc corps, which is utterly and completely broken, and against the very core of Eve gameplay as envisioned by the founders.

If this were in space resources this makes sense. Station resources have only one method of interdiction which is the same for NPC and player corp members alike. A character which never undocks has absolutely no risk from wardecs. Add neutral hauling to the mix, which has not been addressed by anything I've seen proposed here and you haven't really accomplished much save making NPC corp indy's form one man corps or join corps with no effect on thier activities, leaving no real change.

Large scale riskless perfect NPC station refining lives unabated.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2012-12-20 00:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

It's the first one I don't like.

I really feel that you should be in a player run corp, that has an office in that station, in order to get the perfect refine in an NPC station.

Nor do I think that that little change would have any drastic impact on anyone, especially new players who don't have all the skills trained anyways.

Why is being in a player corp so important compared to other factors here? Also why the office in station? Is this in place of or in addition to standing requirements?



CCP has noted that players that join player corps tend to stick around, play the game, and pay subscriptions more often than those that just stay in NPC corps. And I would wager that many of the successful NPC corp members who stick around are actually alts exploiting NPC corp wardec invulnerability for their trade/hauling characters.

This makes sense, but since the hauling side isn't patched it still leaves a hole which those who run NPC alts, by nature people who are likely multi account runners, can just create separate haulers to get around wardecs/etc, making the whole issue rather innocuous for current NPC corp indys.

Edit: Not saying it's a terribly bad solution, but one that leaves giant holes in which risks are bypassed by using exactly the same issues it's trying to patch.