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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#481 - 2012-12-19 03:17:09 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
it would go a long way, yes, which is why i focus a lot on those in my article about how to fix 0.0 industry. merely having perfect refines in a pos would be amazing.

however … it doesn't fix basic competitive issues: if I can make a pos have perfect refines I'm still paying orders of magnitude more in slot costs (fuel costs >>>>>>> slot costs) and the entire job can be destroyed rather than being built in absolute safety creating a large risk premium (you can never do anything to a job installed in a station, a job in a destroyed pos is gone)


You need to follow my writings more closely :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#482 - 2012-12-19 03:20:55 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Can't argue with that logic, because you're just attacking me instead of disputing my point.


you have to actually have a point for someone to dispute it
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#483 - 2012-12-19 03:22:22 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

It's only an insistence that you have a better reason for it that "I worked hard for what I have, why to they get something shiny?!"

"game balance is a random requirement and the difficulty/risk/complexity of a task should have no bearing on its reward in a game"

Titans are balanced by their cost.

That was the original intent, back when their guns could blap subcaps, their DD was AoE, and they had drone bays.
Then they became horribly proliferated to the point where people were camping gates with titans.
Now titans are balanced by the fact that they're much less useful in any combat scenario except blapping carriers and dreadnoughts or structure shoots where you don't want to be forced to stay put for 5 minutes at a time.

No, you got Titans. You didn't get effective nullsec industry.

There is a balance there, though it didn't prevent production of more titans than CCP says they originally intended.

You've played with the shiny titans, they got nerfed, now the lack of effective nullsec industry doesn't seem like such a hot deal.

Maybe you can get them to provide some nullsec PvE content that is only effectively playable with capital ships and supercaps. That would balance things quite nicely.

But there would still be the complaints about industry.

People are never satisfied with what they've got.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#484 - 2012-12-19 03:23:26 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Can't argue with that logic, because you're just attacking me instead of disputing my point.


you have to actually have a point for someone to dispute it

Adults acknowledge when others make a point, I know it's true because I heard it from a nullsec player.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#485 - 2012-12-19 03:25:22 UTC
keep telling everyone how titans balance out nullsec industry

and how they should be used for pve
Imports Plus
Doomheim
#486 - 2012-12-19 03:35:22 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
keep telling everyone how titans balance out nullsec industry

and how they should be used for pve


Do you mean the ratting Titan isnt vogue anymore Shocked
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#487 - 2012-12-19 04:34:22 UTC
Mara Tessidar wrote:
keep telling everyone how titans balance out nullsec industry

and how they should be used for pve

Hey, just floating ideas.

You know "things that can be added to sov nullsec to make it more worth holding", since obviously y'all aren't satisfied with what you have.

If the biggest ships in the game, all-you-can-eat PvP, and the ability to actually own star systems and get additional PvE content out of them isn't enough for you maybe the problem isn't in your stars.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#488 - 2012-12-19 05:06:51 UTC
When alliances put up a half-assed fight against an invasion force and then just give up, that's a pretty obvious indication that space really isn't all that worth holding.

So no, it's not enough. Maybe you should try our shoes on for a change before you start telling us what the problem is.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#489 - 2012-12-19 05:15:25 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
When alliances put up a half-assed fight against an invasion force and then just give up, that's a pretty obvious indication that space really isn't all that worth holding.

So no, it's not enough. Maybe you should try our shoes on for a change before you start telling us what the problem is.

It's enough for someone, or there wouldn't be people taking the space.

I've done enough "game property holding" in my time to know that no matter the in-game rewards sometimes people just get tired of it.

Sometimes holding onto the bits gets too close to reality, and people decide that reality has better rewards.

I came to EvE as a bittervet from other games, I know the symptoms, and the cure is to not take it so seriously. Just enjoy the game already. That's what it is there for, and if you aren't having fun you need to do something else.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#490 - 2012-12-19 05:18:25 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
When alliances put up a half-assed fight against an invasion force and then just give up, that's a pretty obvious indication that space really isn't all that worth holding.

So no, it's not enough. Maybe you should try our shoes on for a change before you start telling us what the problem is.

It's enough for someone, or there wouldn't be people taking the space.

I've done enough "game property holding" in my time to know that no matter the in-game rewards sometimes people just get tired of it.

Sometimes holding onto the bits gets too close to reality, and people decide that reality has better rewards.

I came to EvE as a bittervet from other games, I know the symptoms, and the cure is to not take it so seriously. Just enjoy the game already. That's what it is there for, and if you aren't having fun you need to do something else.

I still don't understand how someone could fail to see the point as consistently as you do.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#491 - 2012-12-19 05:37:58 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
When alliances put up a half-assed fight against an invasion force and then just give up, that's a pretty obvious indication that space really isn't all that worth holding.

So no, it's not enough. Maybe you should try our shoes on for a change before you start telling us what the problem is.

It's enough for someone, or there wouldn't be people taking the space.

I've done enough "game property holding" in my time to know that no matter the in-game rewards sometimes people just get tired of it.

Sometimes holding onto the bits gets too close to reality, and people decide that reality has better rewards.

I came to EvE as a bittervet from other games, I know the symptoms, and the cure is to not take it so seriously. Just enjoy the game already. That's what it is there for, and if you aren't having fun you need to do something else.

I still don't understand how someone could fail to see the point as consistently as you do.

Sometimes you just have to burn down someone's sov-home. I mean the alternative is letting them sit there, and even if the space is crap, it all has to go like a sale the day after a major Hallmark holiday.

Sometimes you can find someone willing to take the space for, basically, free. Of course there's also... ~renters~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#492 - 2012-12-19 07:03:12 UTC
What is high sec?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#493 - 2012-12-19 07:43:32 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Titans are balanced by their cost.

Part of the cost is crap industry in the systems that can build them.

Sounds balanced to me, if you think it's not make a case for that.

this is gibberish and i see no need to make a case against an "argument" that is nothing but the nonsensical assertion that titans (usable anywhere in non-highsec and non-w-space, including npc 0.0 and lowsec) are balanced by conquerable 0.0 having poor industry

it is such gibbering insanity that there is no actual logic to attack, one can merely say it aloud and marvel and tell people to behold the best argument buzzy warstl could come up with to oppose the clear need for rebalancing industry and allow them to draw what conclusions they will


Can't argue with that logic, because you're just attacking me instead of disputing my point.


OK how about if we delete industrial lines from hi-sec stations altogether and then say that hi-sec is "balanced" because you can get items from LP stores.

Please proceed to defend your own logic.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#494 - 2012-12-19 07:54:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Shiny, indeed. Like certificates did for training.


I find certificates are really a great idea, but they are so buried, undocumented and secluded that new players struggle even just finding them or knowing they even exist.

They should be put in the tutorial.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#495 - 2012-12-19 08:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
its basically you reject the very concept of game balance

well good luck with that

This path will lead us to enlightenment. A land without any concern for balance, rewards far in excess of what the risk should imply.

High Sec


"Game balance" as you intend it is something done to traditional, linear games, where you basically know "how it must work" in advance.

Now, I can't know if CCP planned this or not, they should tell their idea about that but I would not suprised if they'd not follow how the other games do.

After all EvE models the harsh, cold, unfair RL. RL is choking full of blatant examples of injustice, unfairness, hard paths that lead to little satisfaction vs easy choices leading to riches. Rare opportunities that crop up and are there for the quickest guy to take.

Have CCP even said what for them is "reward"?

So far, the last years I have been here all I have seen are nerfs that come when the global inflation grows too much or when something is so good that really everybody jump on it (incursions, FW, buffed null anoms).

Imo the sandbox concept applies to the reward too, you are meant to make your own reward and go get it.
Is ISK the one and only reward you care about? Then you go take it where it is.
Is having your own empire the reward you care about? Then you go take it where it is.

No obvious canned paths, actually having contrasting paths makes players take compromise, reasoned decisions.

A typical example would be WHs. Certainly not the safest path, don't give you any empire, they give lots of ISK but not the top... yet all those players whose goal is to live in their own "home" with their own laws etc. and no blobs / supercaps know that WHs are the place to go get such goal.


Edit:
Had I been CCP, I'd have put the "top ISK" goal in low sec and not in hi sec or null sec. That would give safety and ability to casual play as a goal for hi sec, empire building to null sec, "own home" to WH and ISK making to low sec, that is a fair distribution of goals.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#496 - 2012-12-19 08:20:27 UTC
Zeko Rena wrote:
Lance Rossiter wrote:
It's already the case that, in high sec:

You can't source the materials required to build basically anything via gathering, as there are no native sources of Zydrine.
Public Material Research slots are universally locked up for 15 days in advance (and this extends right down to the quietest parts of low sec). Other sorts of slot are perpetually unavailable on a system-by-system basis.


I source my Zydrine either from scanning down Grav sites, found one yesterday with Jaspet in it (0.5 system), or refining mission loot.
Research needs you just need to setup a POS, boring part is grinding the rep

So you can get around both those issues, but it can be time consuming.


Jaspet (and reprocessing M2-M3 mods) is a poor thing, even in case you don't get other guys coming in the same site you are mostly going to get very little high end.

That's the kind of balance I think is fair and guess what, the modules and gun-mining nerfs are a creature of mine and Kerfira.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#497 - 2012-12-19 08:37:01 UTC
Flurk Hellbron wrote:
What is high sec?

An amazing land of endless possibility.

And some gankers, we're still working on removing those.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Santa Spirit
Christmas Spirit and Goodwill Toward Man
#498 - 2012-12-19 11:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Santa Spirit
Buzzy Warstl wrote:


They moved L5 missions to lowsec because they were "too easy" in highsec and the payouts were too high, the players didn't follow, the L5 missions are still there and run by a few skilled and risk tolerant individuals.

Lowsec and NPC nullsec missions pay considerably more than highsec missions, yet people still stick to highsec.

Capital ships were moved out of highsec because they were too powerful for controlled space and people should need to accept some risk to play with the best toys in the game, still most players stick to highsec.

The best ores and mining opportunities are only available outside highsec, yet the highsec belts are stripped by downtime on a regular basis.



All of these things I have heard in my years in the game and all of these I have seen repeated by players, so i must assume they are true as I've not been here long enough to have seen those changes happen (afaik).

Missions:
I would be happy for a lvl 4.5 (or even lvl 5) mission in high sec, nerf the rewards a little if you need to, I'm fine with that and would welcome the challenge, give me 20,000 lp instead of 50 to 70,000, give me 5 to 7 m instead of 20+ and make my bonus pay (if I'm able to finish it fast enough) comparable.

the challenge I DO NOT WANT is to have to look over my shoulder every 30 seconds to ensure someone's not about to blow "my" stuff that I worked for up especially considering that a PVE fit ship is rarely any match for a PvP fit ship, it's no contest IMHO and to be honest, it's rather unfair to the PVE fit ship since the pilot has almost no chance of survival from the git go.
I learned from weggie and pimp about how running INCs is like PvP in that the ships need to be fit different and I'm sure everyone remembers the PVE fit ship massacre that was the start of the incursions?, so I already know that there's no comparison and that I wouldn't stand a chance in that situation.

Capital ships:
For the most part, unless there would be some magical switch that reduced the ship's abilities the second it jumped into .5 space or higher, that change is understandable.
but I won't lie and say a baby dread wouldn't be nice, or a mini carrier (even though the AI changes have probably made them virtually useless like the rattlesnake) for mission running.

Mining:
Yes, the best OREs and the best and often most needed (in high sec) manufacturing minerals are only found in High sec IF you happen to get lucky enough to scan down a grav site that 2 to 3 other groups of miners haven't scanned and you're lucky enough to get there first and have the time to clear it out before another group gets there, otherwise you're relegated to doing the reverse of nullsec and mining enough veld to refine and/or sell to by Zydrine, mega, ect ect.

but here again, if I go to null?, there's that pesky "get my ass handed to me on a platter" issue again.
Repeatedly in these threads i see comments of "i had to go to high sec to make enough money to go back to null and PvP", or similar comments, so I'm constantly amazed that people wonder why players want to stay in high sec to begin with and especially amazed when those folks who have played for years and years act as though there's something wrong with the people who stay in high sec when those veteran players know EXACTLY why people stay in high sec to begin with.

When in a person's view, the risks outweigh the reward, then to coin a phrase High sec is in fact "working as intended"

If that view/opinion equates to carebear tears?, I'm fine with that, you see to me?, carebear isn't a dirty word, it's simply a choice of the type gameplay I've made, but by the same token, I'd love to be in null, I'd love to be helping build something great and awesome, I'd love to fly caps and even as I gained enough experience, stand beside my comrades defending that which we've worked to build, but as long as the one person's post regarding how neuts are treated and preyed upon rings true?, you'll not see me in any space below .5 except on the occasion when I go to low to light a cyno for one of my pirate buddies, or to help them get a ship out of somewhere.
Also, I'd love to know where to make 150m an hour in High sec? That would be epic!!!

As always, just my 0.02 isks worth
(Post timed out and the draft didn't have this part)
Thanks for reading.
o/
Santa

Please come join the fun Dec 14th., 2017 Find the details [HERE] when the post is made
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#499 - 2012-12-19 13:44:00 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Edit:
Had I been CCP, I'd have put the "top ISK" goal in low sec and not in hi sec or null sec. That would give safety and ability to casual play as a goal for hi sec, empire building to null sec, "own home" to WH and ISK making to low sec, that is a fair distribution of goals.

They did.

Lowsec has industrial capacity comparable to highsec, the ability to produce capital ships smaller than supercaps, decent ores, good PI, high mission payouts, good NPC targets, and good exploration. The payout potential is incredible, and it's newbie accessible since a player that can *only* fly fast tackle is a bigger PvP asset to a lowsec corp than a character that only flies capital ships. The price for it is you can lose access to the highsec shinies on the toon you are using for it.

Sovereign nullsec gives you ownership and control of the biggest player-ownable shinies in the game, but there is a price for the access to that content. You get to retain highsec access, but your own space is a pale imitation of NPC space.

I think this is a failure on CCP's part, but from the game-play analyses they have posted in the past it is quite evident that the solution is not in highsec, but rather to make the shinies in nullsec shinier in some way.

Maybe they need to deploy full WiS, but only in player-owned stations ;)

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#500 - 2012-12-19 14:02:15 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

Maybe they need to deploy full WiS, but only in player-owned stations ;)


Even CCP wouldn't troll us quite that hard.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016