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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#441 - 2012-12-18 22:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Barbara Nichole wrote:

Anyway, quit picking on high sec ..it's not the reasons for your woes.

thank you, your long post managing to show you had grasped the tiniest bit of what was discussed was illuminating and extremely convincing and not at all a waste of precious electrons

it was insightful of you to pinpoint the specific arguments for nerfing highsec you had identified and rebutted such as

uh

that there should be some new form of space that is an entirely different game

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#442 - 2012-12-18 22:41:07 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
plus people who have trouble understanding the concept of risk/reward are not the focus group we use when trying to tell if our arguments are convincing


What would be your ideal focus group?

- Null sec players probably support your point of view without need to explain them more.

- WH players probably don't care a lot, they know they are not going to get a lot of positive changes (no outposts etc, maybe a buff to their refineries but that certainly does not regard an hi sec debate).

- Low sec players have an independend playstyle so your pleas won't entice them that much, plus they have stations, facilities etc.

- Hi sec players are strongly against the 8th nerf or whatever the counter is at.


So, besides talking to those already agreeing with you, who are the others?

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#443 - 2012-12-18 22:44:22 UTC
the intelligentsia of eve naturally

those with the wit to understand concepts and arguments rather than 'this maybe make wallet good'

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#444 - 2012-12-18 22:45:03 UTC
no npc corp alts or people regurgitating tactics outdated by half a decade need apply

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#445 - 2012-12-18 22:45:58 UTC
"how would you manage to find eve players who understand anything besides their own isk-based self interest?"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#446 - 2012-12-18 22:49:57 UTC
for example you might pick the ceo and cfo of an insanely tech-rich alliance that repeatedly agitated for a tech nerf

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zeko Rena
ENCOM Industries
#447 - 2012-12-18 22:51:44 UTC
Could you not have just combined those four posts into one?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#448 - 2012-12-18 22:52:34 UTC
could you not consolidate all the wood in your chair into a single log?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#449 - 2012-12-18 22:53:16 UTC
Zeko Rena wrote:
Could you not have just combined those four posts into one?


He's tweeting. Given his audience tight selection, he's tweeting basically to himself.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#450 - 2012-12-18 22:56:05 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
for example you might pick the ceo and cfo of an insanely tech-rich alliance that repeatedly agitated for a tech nerf

I can't possibly think of one, please remind me !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#451 - 2012-12-18 23:25:52 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
"Nerf him because I'm better than he is" is the worst argument for a change to the game, and that's essentially what you are saying.

Access to features is a benefit. Some features cost more than others. The cost of being able to build supercapital ships in a system includes having crap-all other industry there. Maybe that will change with the POS updates. Maybe it won't, but highsec industry won't get the kind of nerf you want, nor have you made a convincing case as to why it should.

congrats this is literally a defense of any possible feature set

Not really.

It's only an insistence that you have a better reason for it that "I worked hard for what I have, why to they get something shiny?!"

I could make a really good case for removing jump drives from the game, that they make nullsec too small and remove the entire concept of a border region from nullsec strategy. It doesn't have anything to do with whether anyone in the game deserves to be able to use jump drives and everything to do with the shape of space and how the game is played.

Weaselior wrote:
I'll say it again the fact that nullsec industrialists require social interaction (diplomacy) to operate at all is a good reason to warrant a nerf to the entirety of highsec's industrial capabilities.

Right here is, however, where you cross the line from reasoned argument to spoiled brat.

What you did to have what you do has no bearing on what others should have and what is in the best interests of the game as a whole.

Grow up already.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#452 - 2012-12-18 23:36:08 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
[quote=Weaselior][quote=Vaerah Vahrokha]
...


Stop.
You know far better than many not to get trapped trying to justify anything to the trolls.

I know you are trying to fight the good fight, as I have also.
But you are letting the designated attack guys from the propaganda wing get under your skin.
Don't.

What you should do is get all your indy buddies from the S&I and MD forums to start petitioning CCP and screaming blue murder about what goons and the rest of the null sec zealots have planned for high sec industry.

Frankly, I think it is a lost cause, as the pattern over the last year is "goon-led propaganda campaign against a high sec mechanic, 6 months later CCP hammers said high sec mechanic", and high sec industry is the next thing in their sights.

But you may still hold out some hope that the upcoming carnage can be stopped. If that is true, ignore the forums and petition CCP directly, or if you want to fight the propaganda war, you are going to need a LOT more people posting on the side of sanity.



Thanks for your input, please could you post only thoughtful points about the development of the game, I'd appreciate it.

Also I am not a troll, I worked hard to produce an interesting post to further the debate, please don't paint me as one. Thanks.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#453 - 2012-12-18 23:37:51 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
congrats this is literally a defense of any possible feature set


Either every goon uses literally incorrectly, or Mittani has a lot of alts.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#454 - 2012-12-18 23:39:50 UTC
"You used a word incorrectly, therefore your entire argument is wrong."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#455 - 2012-12-18 23:46:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"You used a word incorrectly, therefore your entire argument is literally wrong."


Fixed that for you. No thanks needed.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#456 - 2012-12-18 23:48:08 UTC
Mr Pragmatic wrote:

1) If you nerf high sec I won’t be able to play anymore!

- Missioning and MIning isn't super exciting. The pay out is exciting, you wanna take that away from us?

2) "Null players" just want to kill us all, that’s the only reason they bring up a nerf.

- Bull crap argument, Yes they would shoot anyone entering their space.

- Really? I think are division between players, Hi sec players don't want to deal with the drama of null.


3) Null is too dangerous, anyone who goes there get’s shot immediately.

- What if I want to play solo? Why do I have to make friends? And yes in most cases you will get shot.

4) Null is too safe, it’s just a sea of blues and I can’t get access to it.

- So is Hi sec? So why should I leave Hi sec? cause you are jealous of my profit?

5) Nobody could ever mine/mission in low, they would be instantly killed by pirates.

- Yes and while we are at it, lets tank mining ships and put warp stabs on them to reduce the mining yield. So its the same if Hi sec got the nerf.

6) I pay my subscription so I should be able to play however I want, it’s a SANDBOX.

- Damaging how exactly?

7) If High Sec were nerfed ship costs would increase massively and that is bad.

- If miners have to mine longer for the same amount of minerals, prices of ore would go up, and thus the ship cost.

8) High Sec is the empire and null is the wildlands, so the industry should be in High.

- They don't build Cadillacs and land rovers in Afghanistan, just saying.

don't even care to go on.


Ok you made a lot of points, thanks for reading what I wrote. I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, I'll try to respond to a few of your points.

1) So if the isk payout is the best thing about missions could we buff them with some kind of gold medals? That can't be spent on anything but you can collect them for missioning, maybe there should be a set of achievements you can get (do a mission in every type of ship, use only one gun, use only drones etc). Would that make them worth doing without having economic incentive?


2) Most null empires have an NBSI policy that is true, but becoming blue isn't too hard. You can join a corp in the alliance, get your corp hired, I think you can even buy week passes to dekelein. If you show you are useful you end up with friends not enemies.

I dislike the idea of "HighSec Players", I think we should all just think of ourselves as players. I want everyone else to enjoy the game so they keep playing and making it fun for me. I don't think you should limit yourself to one area and become identified with it, roam, be free, breathe.

3) You can play solo in null, low and wormholes. And friends is a good thing, I like friends!

4) Null is about empire building, it should be possible to build a viable empire there, not a substandard imitation of the NPC empires.

5) I don't want to hurt the miners, I, personally, quite like mining. I just think there should be a reward for taking the risk of doing it for a player empire not NPC's.

6) Respawning ships would never need replacing and would therefore end industry. Therefore they have no place in the game. In the same way a super safe highsec with massive production potential distorts the game.

7) If HighSec get's nerfed ship prices will go up, but if battlecruiser battles become cruiser battles nobody will mind. Hey if we all had to grind for frigates then we'd just fight with those. It doesn't matter what ship you have, it matters what ship you have in relation to everyone else.

That's what I mean with needing enough to compete not needing cheap ships.

8) Maybe. I don't like that real world analogy. Firstly they might have a very advanced industrial base in Afganistan in 100 years, so over time Null should be able to develop.

Secondly I see it more like the colonisation of the americas. At first they are rugged and poor but over time they develop to become industrial powerhouses. That's how null should go.

Hope this helps clarify my points. Fly safe.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2012-12-18 23:53:00 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
1) So if the isk payout is the best thing about missions could we buff them with some kind of gold medals? That can't be spent on anything but you can collect them for missioning, maybe there should be a set of achievements you can get (do a mission in every type of ship, use only one gun, use only drones etc). Would that make them worth doing without having economic incentive?

No, you see, that doesn't work. They need to be able to make isk so that they can buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#458 - 2012-12-18 23:56:27 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
congrats this is literally a defense of any possible feature set


Either every goon uses literally incorrectly, or Mittani has a lot of alts.


Actually using the word "literally" as an intensifier has a long and established history going back to Mark Twain who wrote "Tom Sawyer was literally rolling in wealth".

Unfortunately it's one of those things like saying "people used to believe the world was flat", which no one has ever seriously believed.

Please see this article as a reference.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#459 - 2012-12-18 23:58:04 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:
1) So if the isk payout is the best thing about missions could we buff them with some kind of gold medals? That can't be spent on anything but you can collect them for missioning, maybe there should be a set of achievements you can get (do a mission in every type of ship, use only one gun, use only drones etc). Would that make them worth doing without having economic incentive?

No, you see, that doesn't work. They need to be able to make isk so that they can buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster...



And maybe monocles?

Ironically a good nerf would keep these people playing for longer as the arbitrary mountain would be higher.

People love medals, people love shiny.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#460 - 2012-12-19 00:04:56 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:
1) So if the isk payout is the best thing about missions could we buff them with some kind of gold medals? That can't be spent on anything but you can collect them for missioning, maybe there should be a set of achievements you can get (do a mission in every type of ship, use only one gun, use only drones etc). Would that make them worth doing without having economic incentive?

No, you see, that doesn't work. They need to be able to make isk so that they can buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster to buy ships and modules to make isk faster...

And maybe monocles?

Ironically a good nerf would keep these people playing for longer as the arbitrary mountain would be higher.

People love medals, people love shiny.

Shiny, indeed. Like certificates did for training.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?