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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

First post First post First post
Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#381 - 2012-12-18 18:00:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


I've only suggested a nerf to a single group of players. People who do industrial work without ever leaving the NPC corps and only building in NPC stations. Being able to build capital ships and up isn't a "reward", it's just assuming more risk and effort given the way such production actually works.

Making NPC stations less efficient for those people in NPC corps is not going to have any impact on the economy, it would only make the least effieciant industrials instead of the most.

As an industrialist there is no benefit to joining a player run corp and working out of a player run structure. Buidlling caps and super caps is not a reward, it's not the same thing as building T2 items. Most industrialists, whether you're in a player corp or not, will never build a cap or super cap; just like most players will never do moon mining.


I know Goonswarm is the happy exception but let's talk about the rule: regardless of ANY structure, slots etc, the industrialist guys are seen as GAR BA GE by null sec corps and it's an ideology not an EvE shortcoming.


Bullshit. That's just utter trash talk, it's useless steroetyping that flies in the face of the available evidence.

And what's worse, you know it, and you've admitted to me previously that you know it.

I'm asking you nicely, V.V.; please stop this. You're capable of contriuting to this issue in a really useful and constructive way, and this pointless, meretricious Big-Lie stuff you're giving us instead is flat out disappointing.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#382 - 2012-12-18 18:01:33 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Again, what the hell does any of that have to do with high sec industrial corps that actually work out of PoS's in high sec?

They are not being rewarded any more than any industrialist in null.


They are indirectly rewarded by simply being there and not in null. But hey, if you get a buff to all the PoSes refineries, arrays etc I will gladly take it!


Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I am not making statements based solely on "where I play". I'm addressing industry as a whole in all areas of EVE.
Stop focusing on the words under my name.


You can hide those words, wanna bet it'd not change a bit in the replies?


Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Yet, it seems a bunch of guys in NPC corps keep responding as if that's all it is.

Coincidentally, not only is a goon saying buff high sec industrial corps, he's also saying nerf npc corp indusrialists. Who is it again that keeps trying to stear it back to being a problem with null. Oh look, guys posting with characters in NPC corps; go figure.


NPC corp? Glad my name got promoted to empire status! An empire based on station trading none the less but still...
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#383 - 2012-12-18 18:01:44 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
If nullsec industry is so bad, why do people make things there?

We don't make much stuff, except stuff that ~game mechanics~ don't allow to be built in highsec. Like titans, our favorite item that needs to have its production reduced.

If titans could be built in highsec, doubtless they would be cheaper, more plentiful, and used for scams in Jita 4-4

And sovereign nullsec is more efficient than anyplace else at making Titans and Supercarriers.

How much more manufacturing capacity could you possibly devote to that purpose?

How much more manufacturing capacity would you need before that particular market was saturated?


Highsec is pre-nerfed there, you can't build capital ships in highsec.


The cost of manufacturing ammo in nullsec is obviously moot if all the manufacturing capacity is taken up with higher priority jobs, and if there is enough demand for those higher priority jobs to soak up considerably more manufacturing capacity then that is what any additional capacity will be used for.

Are you saying that because you can build a titan in null that the industry balance is fine?

How many people do you think actually do that?
How many peopel do you think it requirs to do that?
Do you think that is the only thing that gets built there?

And what about everyone that isn't doing that?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#384 - 2012-12-18 18:06:43 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


No, that would require to be worth the time to do it.

May I ask,

Do you really thinkt he balance if fine?
If you run a PoS to build stuff in high sec, putting your possesion at risk of being taken from, for no actual added benefit?

Exactly what is the benefit of running a station in high sec, that can bel blown up, requires you to be in a corp that can be war decced, and requires you to fuel on a regular basis?

Do you really believe that you are being rewarded for all of that added effort and risk, as apposed to someone who is in an NPC corp and using NPC stations to build the same things you do?


No, anything sort of the EvE universe I proposed long ago in the assembly hall (no hi sec except starter player 1.0 systems) is a square peg in a game of round holes and will always lead to unsolvable game imbalance.

What you see is the patched up CCP attempt at making everybody (including their shareholders) happy.
For some reason it seems to more or less hold together, I would not like to know what happens if you start messing with it too much.

A NGE is always ready to strike, I would really be sad if CCP decided to rectify their ancient design and end up defaulting and closing down. That's a big concern for me.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#385 - 2012-12-18 18:09:39 UTC
considering how is this game advertised as hardcore by players themselves and not only can you scam,lie,kill,steal or cheat its also supported there are sure too many whiners about how unfair the things are

eve is unfair - deal with it

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#386 - 2012-12-18 18:11:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Bullshit. That's just utter trash talk, it's useless steroetyping that flies in the face of the available evidence.

And what's worse, you know it, and you've admitted to me previously that you know it.

I'm asking you nicely, V.V.; please stop this. You're capable of contriuting to this issue in a really useful and constructive way, and this pointless, meretricious Big-Lie stuff you're giving us instead is flat out disappointing.


This thrash talk (assuming you refer to the null sec industrialist "hate") is exactly what happened to me, should I invent an alternate reality that makes me feel happier? It happened not in 1 but in *2* alliances and one of them is called Initiative Alliance (no idea if they are related to yours).


As for contributing, I have written walls and walls about what I think should be done to really make true null empires out of what we have now. What happened? The Goons brass themselves only took some cheap laugh shots and similar.

So, what do you expect off me, exactly?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#387 - 2012-12-18 18:16:41 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
If nullsec industry is so bad, why do people make things there?

We don't make much stuff, except stuff that ~game mechanics~ don't allow to be built in highsec. Like titans, our favorite item that needs to have its production reduced.

If titans could be built in highsec, doubtless they would be cheaper, more plentiful, and used for scams in Jita 4-4

And sovereign nullsec is more efficient than anyplace else at making Titans and Supercarriers.

How much more manufacturing capacity could you possibly devote to that purpose?

How much more manufacturing capacity would you need before that particular market was saturated?


Highsec is pre-nerfed there, you can't build capital ships in highsec.


The cost of manufacturing ammo in nullsec is obviously moot if all the manufacturing capacity is taken up with higher priority jobs, and if there is enough demand for those higher priority jobs to soak up considerably more manufacturing capacity then that is what any additional capacity will be used for.

Are you saying that because you can build a titan in null that the industry balance is fine?

How many people do you think actually do that?
How many peopel do you think it requirs to do that?
Do you think that is the only thing that gets built there?

And what about everyone that isn't doing that?

How much more capacity would you need to exhaust the appetite of the people who are currently doing that?

Answer that question and you can actually answer the question of "how much more industrial capacity does nullsec need?"

If the answer is "all that and more", then the lack of industrial capacity in nullsec is the only thing keeping the game from thousand-titan roams.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#388 - 2012-12-18 18:20:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So, what do you expect off me, exactly?

You were in 0.0 for a few months, in a terrible alliance, 3 years ago.

Stop assuming that your experience is representative of the current state of 0.0.

.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#389 - 2012-12-18 18:22:45 UTC
Oh yay, the 4,986,735th "nerf high sec players who don't play the game like me" thread of the week! This must be some kind of record.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#390 - 2012-12-18 18:49:59 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Most peopel are never going to build one anyways, and no one lives in null just because they can build a titan.


They live there to exercise power, including the ability to restrict access to the stations they've built. Anything exclusive costs more.

No that is not why.

Few peopel make the decisions, the few do not reflect the many. Most of us are not there for those reason, the few that run things may be.

Nor does that have anything at all to do with anything I wrote.


NPC corp industrialist should not be the most efficient in the game. They need to be nerfed, for the benefit of every other industrialist in the game. High, low, and null, none of us should be at a disadvantage compared to the NPC corp guy.

It's working exactly that way.
You can not argue against it, nor can it be justified when the rest of the game is balanced against exactly that.


Everything in the game that is exclusive costs more, doesn't it? Ownership has a price, and advantages.

If their not worth it to you, maybe ownership isn't what you want. (btw, if not ownership, why work there? )

Whether it "should" be that way is opinion so far, but it's not correct to say there are no advantages.
Xavier Hasberin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2012-12-18 18:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Hasberin
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

That's what I keep saying though, you are NOT rewarded. No one who starts a corp and runs a player owned structure is rewarded.

They take on more risk and effort for no real gain.


I'm sorry, my friend, but this has to be the biggest bit of nonsense I've ever heard in my life.

If there was no reward for it, no one would do it.


Quote:
Making NPC stations less efficient for those people in NPC corps is not going to have any impact on the economy, it would only make the least effieciant industrials instead of the most.

As an industrialist there is no benefit to joining a player run corp and working out of a player run structure. Buidlling caps and super caps is not a reward, it's not the same thing as building T2 items. Most industrialists, whether you're in a player corp or not, will never build a cap or super cap; just like most players will never do moon mining.

You're basically trying to boil it down to "fun". A guy in an NPC corp can't build a super, is not an excuse. Most peopel are never going to build one anyways, and no one lives in null just because they can build a titan.


I repeat: If there was no reward for doing it, no one would do it. Since it's being done, that means there's a reward for it. As we've been repeatedly told, the Goonswarm knows about risk and reward, and how to factor it into what they do......and what they're doing now is building supercaps.

Quote:
You're talking about stuff that can take over a month to build, before you even factor in everythign else that needs to be build before you can even start building the ship itself. There's a reason people work together to guild those tings.

Those things do not justify the rest of industry benefiting the NPC corp industrialist.


They must justify SOMETHING, though. What could that be?

Quote:
PS: I keep saying that high sec player corps need to be reward, just as much as a null corp does when running your own structure.

Do not treat me like a null guy who's only championing changes for his own benefit. I'm clearly in favor of helping high sec indusrialist as much as null.


You are calling for nerfs on hisec, and claiming that you're doing it to buff hisec corps? This is logic equivalent to claiming that if we just cut off your legs, you will be able to run faster.

Quote:
PPS: I also notice you keep posting with a guy in an NPC corp. Is it safe to assume that even if you're an alt, that your main is also a member of an NPC corp?

If so, for shame on you being a hypocrit. Seeing as the NPC corp industrialist is the only industrialist I want nerfed, you obviously disgree with me because you just want to remain the most efficient industrialist in the game.

Nor do I want it now. I want it with the PoS revamp, and the S & I UI overhaul.


No, actually, what I am is the furthest thing from an industrialist that you can find - I've done that sort of thing exactly twice. Once in the tutorials and once when I wanted some antimatter S shells and none were readily to hand. If anything, I prefer exploring and complex running. I have zero dog in this hunt, other than the general principle that the big boys can have a goodfite without turning hisec into an empty zone.

AFAIC, nullsec does need more slots and it probably can use a production boost. It doesn't need to supersede hisec in the process, and there's no good reason to attack hisec and the 71% who play there simply because CCP didn't give null the industrial production you either want or need to build all those shiny toys that you pretend not to care about but keep making.
Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2012-12-18 19:02:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shylari Avada
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, that would require to be worth the time to do it.


I was looking forward to your cyclical and argumentative retort completely lacking back up in facts or game knowledge.

One can hope.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Bullshit. That's just utter trash talk, it's useless steroetyping that flies in the face of the available evidence.

As for contributing, I have written walls and walls about what I think should be done to really make true null empires out of what we have now. What happened? The Goons brass themselves only took some cheap laugh shots and similar.


Someone is uselessly stereotyping!

The GOONS! ARRRRRGGHHHHH!!!!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#393 - 2012-12-18 19:11:01 UTC
Malphilos wrote:

Import and transport is fine, the relative ease of import from highsec which you pointed out is what I'm driving at.

nope blew that out of the water as it's impossible for that to be harder than importing from other regions of 0.0 absent immensely stupid game mechanics

you had no point and are merely flailing wildly: transport costs cannot be used to fix 0.0 industry (merely kill it)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#394 - 2012-12-18 19:12:21 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
Instead of nerfing hisec, why not just boost low/null? Everything is relative, isn't it? So make it worthwhile while risking your butt in low/null. I guess the people have a point that it's not only reward that keeps people in hisec. If people are not moving and rewards a dropped heavily, everything could become just more expensive. Let's see. I won't ragequit and watch the show. Eventually I'll just die a slow death.

EDIT: Remove incursions from the game.

this is a dumb idea

"lets just always boost everything besides x when x is overpowered" is stupidly overcomplicating things by making you need to buff (all things in game -1) every time something is overpowered and creating massive mudflation just to avoid letting idiots know they've gotten nerfed

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#395 - 2012-12-18 19:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I would NEVER move 100B worth of BPOs over null sec, where all what will happen is to lose them earlier (gank) or later (station conquered). That would be an alliance sized effort but the thousands of players are not all in the top game alliance as far as I know.


right because you are risk averse and cowardly (and bad: there are ways to do it right, you keep a fueled carrier and a jumpclone in the station)

you are not the target market here you will always cower in empire

me, i manage something like 300b+ bpos in 0.0 and we still kept those even when we accidentally the whole empire one night

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#396 - 2012-12-18 19:18:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:

Import and transport is fine, the relative ease of import from highsec which you pointed out is what I'm driving at.

nope blew that out of the water as it's impossible for that to be harder than importing from other regions of 0.0 absent immensely stupid game mechanics


Impossible to do unless it's something you'd call stupid.

So necessarily it is possible, but you don't like it.

There's a reason you keep ending up here.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#397 - 2012-12-18 19:19:52 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So, what do you expect off me, exactly?

You were in 0.0 for a few months, in a terrible alliance, 3 years ago.

Stop assuming that your experience is representative of the current state of 0.0.


I was in (two) terrible alliances 3 years ago yet back at the time there was way less complaining about XSec vs YSec.

Today it looks like we got fantastic alliances (well, 99.9% posts are all from the same alliance, the sample is a bit thin) yet there's an endless bickering.

What happened?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#398 - 2012-12-18 19:20:03 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

And sovereign nullsec is more efficient than anyplace else at making Titans and Supercarriers.

How much more manufacturing capacity could you possibly devote to that purpose?

How much more manufacturing capacity would you need before that particular market was saturated?

it is saturated, supercap nerfs have driven demand off a cliff

you can see this in crashed bpc prices for people who aren't able to check how many csaas have gone idle

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#399 - 2012-12-18 19:22:27 UTC
Shylari Avada wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, that would require to be worth the time to do it.


I was looking forward to your cyclical and argumentative retort completely lacking back up in facts that suits me or game knowledge that suits me.

One can hope.


Added some missing bits.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#400 - 2012-12-18 19:22:47 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:

Import and transport is fine, the relative ease of import from highsec which you pointed out is what I'm driving at.

nope blew that out of the water as it's impossible for that to be harder than importing from other regions of 0.0 absent immensely stupid game mechanics


Impossible to do unless it's something you'd call stupid.

So necessarily it is possible, but you don't like it.

There's a reason you keep ending up here.

ok so now we are back at you throwing up chaff for your immensely stupid ideas by harping on the difference between "impossible" and "impossible when anyone with two brain cells to rub together has a veto"

everything you've said has been a veritible fountain of ignorance and dumb ideas which you defend by endlessly filibustering and hoping all the smart people will go away so you can declare victory

fortunately for me i enjoy whacking the idiot ball

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.