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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2012-12-17 18:25:15 UTC
Yet another load of drivel about fixing what doesn't need fixing.

But, OK, lets follow through on the OP's load of rubbish and lets assume that CCP, 'fix the unbroken problem'.

Then PvPer ( I mean real PvPers, not the "I can gank miners" idiots) Can't restock their wallets fast after going on a loosing streak

Ship and module prices go through the roof, making it even harder for real PvPers to get back into the game.

Eve is a well ballanced game, I'm sure that CCP are monitoring things close and will only change things as and when they decide it is needed to be changed.

To the OP, stop dictating how others play their game, a game that they pay to play how they wish.

And if you can't live with that, then go find another game that will let you enter into risk free ganking

"High Sec need Fixing" = "I'm a **** poor PvPer and need CCP to force none PvP enabled players to line up so as that I can shoot them"

End of story, admit the truth
Xzar Fyrarr
Anime Masters
#302 - 2012-12-17 18:26:52 UTC
I'm confused.
What exactly is going on here?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#303 - 2012-12-17 18:27:28 UTC
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

"High Sec need Fixing" = "I'm a **** poor PvPer and need CCP to force none PvP enabled players to line up so as that I can shoot them"

End of story, admit the truth

there was literally nothing in here except ranting assertions that properly balancing high sec would send costs through the roof

there's not even pretend logic I can knock holes in

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#304 - 2012-12-17 18:30:01 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

"High Sec need Fixing" = "I'm a **** poor PvPer and need CCP to force none PvP enabled players to line up so as that I can shoot them"

End of story, admit the truth

there was literally nothing in here except ranting assertions that properly balancing high sec would send costs through the roof

there's not even pretend logic I can knock holes in

General Discussion, Easy Mode.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#305 - 2012-12-17 18:30:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

It might sound strange but "adapt" was exactly what I had to do when told to patrol gates for hours. Cry

you have to adapt correctly: you adapted by trying to replicate perfect safety

instead you need to adapt to deal with insecurity through superior force or avoid it through careful scouting, not by guarding the gates when nobody's trying to break in

I toodled a freighter around dek the other day, not by having scads of goons orbiting the gates but by scouting the systems and moving it when I could do it safely


I can agree with that. However I was few months old (you know, my risk FEAR brought me to gate camping in low first, null later) and was a grunt. So orders came and I executed them.

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Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#306 - 2012-12-17 18:34:28 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
Finally my favourite,
16) I’ll quit if you nerf High Sec, so will many others, the game will crash and CCP will go bankrupt!

- Firstly if you are a person who will rage quit when they don’t get what they want how long will you stay in the game for anyway? You’re probably not a legacy player.

- Secondly people subscribe to EVE because it is awesome, and it’s gameplay makes it into the gaming press because of it’s awesomeness. This is what CCP need to protect for the long term health of the game and overall profitability, not pandering to an irrational few.

I think this is most of the arguments, though I’ve probably missed a few.

TL;DR, High Sec may need to be nerfed in the future, as it is too rewarding for how risky it is. The evidence of this is that 71% of players choose to live there when it is 1/7th of the space in the game. The arguments that this is impossible aren’t very strong.


So why do the opponents of hisec do the exact same thing then? And what does CCP do? They jump upon the command of their nulsec masters. Eve is awesome, I agree! So why are we diluting it? Why are we taking the legacy that has been laid before it and watering it down because talking heads bandy about the overused and cliched phrase 'Risk vs Reward' like it actually means something in hisec? Furthermore, since hisec is not safe (a fact acknowledged by many) who really decides what is the appropriate reward anyways? Nulsec alliances? Pffft.

The casual players who enjoy hisec activities are the ones being punished, for an archaic term that means absolutely zero in context to a large bloc of space that allows it's denizens the exact same privileges for much larger rewards. Oh, but nulsec is inherently dangerous, yes? So that backwater system that nets the high isk complex that can be farmed ad infinitum with as much danger as any hisec system deserves to be there because it's nulsec? Yes, a coaltion of players made it as such, but to say that an opponent can easily get to said backwater system, far removed from any chance of real conflict, makes you either a liar or just incompetent for not being able to protect what you have.

John Hancock
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#307 - 2012-12-17 18:36:03 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Null sec zealots just can't get their heads around the fact that manufacturing caps, supercaps, and other ships is one huge industry.

Less than 5% of total ship production (measured by volume of mineral consumption) so not that huge, sorry. And because of how bad nullsec industry is, doing it is a huge kick in the balls. Supercaps are built in nullsec only because they have to be, caps are only built in nullsec by the most masochistic.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Test and goons both have a T1 ship replacement policy, so they can't be having too much difficulty getting ships to their null sec people.

Which we import to our space because importing finished hulls is the only viable way to do it, seeing as industry in nullsec sucks.


I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your crackpot tinfoil.


5% of all mineral consumption huh?
A good lawyer never asks a question unless he already knows the answer.

I am not a good lawyer.
Can you provide your source of that fact of 5% consumption?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#308 - 2012-12-17 18:39:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I can agree with that. However I was few months old (you know, my risk FEAR brought me to gate camping in low first, null later) and was a grunt. So orders came and I executed them.

Ok, but that still isn't a valid reason to extrapolate how to balance null from this experience. If you don't live in null, you're going to be making your suggestions based on errors like this anyone who lived in null would instantly spot.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2012-12-17 18:44:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

5% of all mineral consumption huh?
A good lawyer never asks a question unless he already knows the answer.

I am not a good lawyer.
Can you provide your source of that fact of 5% consumption?

lets lay out some groundrules first once he sources it you will admit you were wrong and change your position in a meaningful way rather than just suddenly claim it doesn't matter and you're still right for a different reason, correct?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#310 - 2012-12-17 18:49:15 UTC
They won't call it a nerf.

It'll be a PoS, and science and industry overhaul.

And I fully expect it'll involve "nerfs" to high sec, npc corp and station industry.

You should be in a corp, working out of a player owned structure in order to do the most efficient manufacturing.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#311 - 2012-12-17 18:50:59 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
nullsec requires huge quantities of materials to be imported and this cannot be avoided: even leaving aside the trit problem you must import non-native fuel and moon products (or their derivitives: t2 ships). fuel and moon minerals are racial and you cannot supply what you need, period


Which material is unavailable in null?

in addition to fuel and r8/r32 moon minerals which are regional and therefore 3/4ths will be absolutely unavalible, there is no reasonable source of lowend materials in 0.0

now granted, you're going to say something dumb like "but there are veldspar rocks hyuk hyuk" but nobody is going to do that because a)everything else in 0.0 pays better than mining veldspar and b)if you want to mine veldspar you can do it in near-perfect safety in a 1.0 system

therefore, nobody will do it. and nobody ever has, in like a decade

previously you could live in the drone regions: as the only 0.0 with trit, it was unsuprisingly the only one with significant industry

doesn't exist, now nowhere in 0.0 has trit


So all materials are available in null, which was my understanding. Your confident insistence that they weren't suggested that I'd missed something but that turns out not to be the case. Rather it's the fact that while nobody may be producing them in null, that's result of rational choice as opposed to physical impossibility. Do I understand that much correctly?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#312 - 2012-12-17 18:51:34 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I can agree with that. However I was few months old (you know, my risk FEAR brought me to gate camping in low first, null later) and was a grunt. So orders came and I executed them.

Ok, but that still isn't a valid reason to extrapolate how to balance null from this experience. If you don't live in null, you're going to be making your suggestions based on errors like this anyone who lived in null would instantly spot.

AKA, "you don't know me!"

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#313 - 2012-12-17 18:51:47 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

5% of all mineral consumption huh?
A good lawyer never asks a question unless he already knows the answer.

I am not a good lawyer.
Can you provide your source of that fact of 5% consumption?

lets lay out some groundrules first once he sources it you will admit you were wrong and change your position in a meaningful way rather than just suddenly claim it doesn't matter and you're still right for a different reason, correct?


Huh?

What is the problem here?
You have an opportunity to make one of the champions of high sec defending against the null sec zealotry (OK, more like Don Quixote attacking a windmill, because this fight is already lost, null sec has won), and you want "ground rules"?

Just post your source.
Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#314 - 2012-12-17 18:52:54 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

"High Sec need Fixing" = "I'm a **** poor PvPer and need CCP to force none PvP enabled players to line up so as that I can shoot them"

End of story, admit the truth

there was literally nothing in here except ranting assertions that properly balancing high sec would send costs through the roof

there's not even pretend logic I can knock holes in


Yes, it is a rant. It was a rant because this is an argument that comes up with stupid regularity by players who do not understand the High Sec game and as a consequence want CCP to change things in their favour.

Yes, I am a high sec dweller, but not all of the time, I do go into low sec, I do go into nul sec, and WH space. Most times I go and do what I want to do, then get back to high sec. But sometimes I get caught and get 'spanked' hard. The combat PvP side of the game is not for me, but it's an important part of the game, but not the only important part. But you never see me crying that low, or nul sec/WH space sec needs 'ballencing'. I go in do my thing, then come out.

As I said. I am sure that after almost 10 years of Eve, CCP know what needs fixing and rebalencing and they will do so without a blink when they decide it needs fixing, not when some loud mouth spouting off about what they don't realy know about and are only interested in finding ways to break the game for those who don't want to play with him
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#315 - 2012-12-17 18:54:24 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
All the more reason to improve the facilities in 0.0 to support convenience play, so that people who's lives get busy aren't forced to abandon their friends and interests in null.


Ah, so it's about convenience now.

I wondered when risk/reward was going to die.


Risk:reward and convenience are by no means incompatible concepts.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#316 - 2012-12-17 18:55:47 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
So all materials are available in null, which was my understanding. Your confident insistence that they weren't suggested that I'd missed something but that turns out not to be the case. Rather it's the fact that while nobody may be producing them in null, that's result of rational choice as opposed to physical impossibility. Do I understand that much correctly?

so basically you can't read, and are masking you being wrong with weasel phrasing

any perticular region will not have 3/4ths of fuel types and 3/4ths of regional moon mins, giving it an absolute importation need. the fuel and moon mins will not exist period

when it comes to lowends as a practical matter they do not exist in null. this is because they will never be produced under the current system rather than it being absolutely impossible to produce but that's a dumb you put in to avoid dealing with the reality rather than anything people actually looking at the scenario care about

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#317 - 2012-12-17 18:55:51 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
(OK, more like Don Quixote attacking a windmill, because this fight is already lost, null sec has won).


Wait what? Did something change this weekend? Did a Dev say something?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2012-12-17 18:58:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

What is the problem here?
You have an opportunity to make one of the champions of high sec defending against the null sec zealotry (OK, more like Don Quixote attacking a windmill, because this fight is already lost, null sec has won), and you want "ground rules"?

Just post your source.

i wish to make it clear you're actually not going to pay any attention to facts or actually force you to pay attention to the facts, because i know there's a 99% chance you asking for the facts is just stalling and you're going to ignore them once produced, so i want you to make that explicit or prevent you from doing it

Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

Yes, it is a rant. It was a rant because this is an argument that comes up with stupid regularity by players who do not understand the High Sec game and as a consequence want CCP to change things in their favour.

yeah we've been beating holes in these dumb prohighsec arguments for 17 pages and that's why you're reduced to ranting rather than trying to support them

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#319 - 2012-12-17 18:59:05 UTC
Huh, going to have to ask you to clarify what you mean here;

Weaselior wrote:


a)everything else in 0.0 pays better than mining veldspar


So mining for trit isn't seen as a means to an end (ie local null sec industry) and the accrual of wealth by mining high end ores is?

Weaselior wrote:


and b)if you want to mine veldspar you can do it in near-perfect safety in a 1.0 systemt


Are you saying you are too risk averse to mine for trit in 0.0?Shocked


If so, it seems that the best way to nerf hi sec would be to localize null sec industry/resource gathering and reduce the demand of hi sec trit.Blink
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#320 - 2012-12-17 18:59:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
All the more reason to improve the facilities in 0.0 to support convenience play, so that people who's lives get busy aren't forced to abandon their friends and interests in null.


Ah, so it's about convenience now.

I wondered when risk/reward was going to die.


Risk:reward and convenience are by no means incompatible concepts.

It's a game.

The risk is the risk of not being able to play for whatever reason.
The reward is getting to play the game.

Convenience in this context is having a fair degree of certainty that you will be able to play the game the way you want to without having to do many things you don't want to.

What exactly that means in a game like EvE depends a great deal on which part of the game you want to play today.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs