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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#261 - 2012-12-17 17:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE empires affect game play enough that people skill up and fly their empire ships. That's quite of an huge impact, even if on paper it's not forcible, yet it happens.

correlation isn't causation

people want to roleplay and fly minmatar ships so they pick a minmatar dude and skill up minmatar ships

there is no way in which the character they picked influences their ship choice rather their ship choice influences the character they pick
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Comparatively speaking citizenship had more impact on my EvE character than me being in my country, I only bought a national car in my life and so on.


yeah that's simply nonsense, but it's so disconnected from reality I don't know how to approach it; citizenship is incredibly important for your legal duties and rights in your country and abroad and if you think it doesn't affect you at all you're simply crazy

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#262 - 2012-12-17 17:36:28 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
If life in null is now too tough, go ahead and propose a buff.

those have been proposed ad nauseum, they just all require certain broken features of highsec to be toned down because highsec's brokenness with industry is what breaks null industry

But.. I thought we were discussing on
Quote:
You CANT Nerf HighSec!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#263 - 2012-12-17 17:36:28 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:

No, it's the ease of transport that "breaks" null industry.

More slots in null requires no change to high. Cost changes require no change to high. Mining is already available, and mineral availability is higher.

wrong

because everything in null has to be imported ease of transport drops away: you can either import a finished hull or you can import minerals and freighter them around like a madman

the idea mineral avalibility is higher in 0.0 is so absurd i don't even know how to deal with someone with that little grasp of the facts

in short, npc alt: unsuprisingly knows nothing about nullsec industry


It's simply not true that everything in null has to be imported. It makes more sense to because of the ease of transport, but to say it must be so is pretty clearly false.

Even if that were true, that still wouldn't require a highsec nerf to correct. That's again pretty trivially obvious.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#264 - 2012-12-17 17:37:46 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
No, it's the ease of transport that "breaks" null industry.

More slots in null requires no change to high. Cost changes require no change to high. Mining is already available, and mineral availability is higher.

wrong

because everything in null has to be imported ease of transport drops away: you can either import a finished hull or you can import minerals and freighter them around like a madman

the idea mineral avalibility is higher in 0.0 is so absurd i don't even know how to deal with someone with that little grasp of the facts

in short, npc alt: unsuprisingly knows nothing about nullsec industry

Such lack of knowledge clearly leads to a perfusion of suggestions.

All bad.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#265 - 2012-12-17 17:38:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

So far my lack of imagination has brought here some examples and implementations, while you limited to rebuttals.
My imagination might not suit you but that does not mean I don't have it.

uh yeah i've run industry in null for years and do today and help run the most successful alliance in the game with the closest thing to a functioning 0.0 market in the game and have clearly explained the flaws with the current model and what holds us back

you complain that you could not bear the risk of 0.0 without concord and your imagination is "well lets make 0.0 highsec, but players get to choose the names!"

the point of 0.0 industry isn't to be highsec industry, but in a different place, it's to be industry under combat conditions, something actually tricky and complex rather than a series of boring riskless steps


Considering as 3rd party I venture everywhere including wormholes (even posted screenshots on GD some days ago), I'd not say I "can't bear the risk".

I just don't see the point at wanting to build an empire and then leave it half done and not civilized.

Notice how *you* are being confrontational and finger pointing, while I am just pointing out "ideal" differences. I think it's actually a good thing to have different point of views in a conversation. If you want to show aggressivity, then feel free too, it's not going to help you in the long term.

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Zoctrine
Doomheim
#266 - 2012-12-17 17:41:43 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
One thing I would like to point out is in 12 pages there isn't one cogent, well written, argument about why highsec "cannot" be nerfed. I think it has to remain on the table as an option for CCP.

Thank you for your input, I to would like to point out that in all your post's I see not one cogent, well written, argument about why highsec “should” be nerfed. If you think HS is so great as it is, move there, no one is stopping you, is it?




The Mittani wrote:

At no point should 0.0 become highsec or have automated npc defenses. The need for being able to upgrade local industry and create genuine empires has been written about at length (by me, and others), but it is about giving players tools to create empires and an industrial base, not allowing them to create highsec. NPC guards would never enter into the equation.

I'm out of words to counter that...
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#267 - 2012-12-17 17:43:01 UTC
Malphilos wrote:

It's simply not true that everything in null has to be imported. It makes more sense to because of the ease of transport, but to say it must be so is pretty clearly false.

Even if that were true, that still wouldn't require a highsec nerf to correct. That's again pretty trivially obvious.


nullsec requires huge quantities of materials to be imported and this cannot be avoided: even leaving aside the trit problem you must import non-native fuel and moon products (or their derivitives: t2 ships). fuel and moon minerals are racial and you cannot supply what you need, period

theres simply no way around that; therefore you must have a certain transportation ability, therefore things that are small enough they easily fit within that simply cannot be made to have a prohibitive transport cost

your complete lack of understanding of how the ece economy works disqualifies you from making suggestions because you are ignorant about trivially obvious things that are critically important (then follow up corrections with statements like "Even if that were true, that still wouldn't require a highsec nerf to correct. That's again pretty trivially obvious." because you don't understand any of the building blocks)

flatly upping transport costs will not fix null industry period, it is an idea suggested by ignorant npc alts who do not understand how 0.0 works

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2012-12-17 17:44:11 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Considering as 3rd party I venture everywhere including wormholes (even posted screenshots on GD some days ago), I'd not say I "can't bear the risk".

uh yeah you just said you wouldn't move out to 0.0 until it was made highsec by a different name because you don't want to deal with the risk

third partying transactions in a newbie ship isn't risk soz

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#269 - 2012-12-17 17:44:26 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE empires affect game play enough that people skill up and fly their empire ships. That's quite of an huge impact, even if on paper it's not forcible, yet it happens.

correlation isn't causation

people want to roleplay and fly minmatar ships so they pick a minmatar dude and skill up minmatar ships

there is no way in which the character they picked influences their ship choice rather their ship choice influences the character they pick


This is your opinion, which is as good as anyone else's. When I first started the game, I watched the video, then browsed the available bloodlines and picked the "rebel" race. I found it just fitting (causation due to lore) that their ships were nimble and good for hit and run. I also found it interesting Minmater having a lot of low sec, it was just fitting with the rest of the lore.
The actual ships choices came later, actually I asked my first corp CEO which Minmatar ships were good for me to train and he told me.

This is my little case, I am sure I am not alone at this. Not everybody have born with pure min max and quickest path to fortune in mind.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#270 - 2012-12-17 17:45:33 UTC
risk is your factories being able to be assaulted or caputured, your ships with resources or finished procucts caught in transit and destroyed, and the like

it is not "well my wothless ship could die and my implantless clone could be podded" it is real risk where if you don't do things right you could suffer real loss

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#271 - 2012-12-17 17:49:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Considering as 3rd party I venture everywhere including wormholes (even posted screenshots on GD some days ago), I'd not say I "can't bear the risk".

uh yeah you just said you wouldn't move out to 0.0 until it was made highsec by a different name because you don't want to deal with the risk

third partying transactions in a newbie ship isn't risk soz


No, I don't move out to 0.0 because out there are no markets to swing trade. I even asked one of your guys if you had something suitable in VFK but he said no Cry

As for doing third party transactions, it's not like they always bother forewarning me, I go with a cov ops when 5 minutes before I was in a cov ops, I go with whatever I have handy.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#272 - 2012-12-17 17:50:45 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

This is your opinion, which is as good as anyone else's. When I first started the game, I watched the video, then browsed the available bloodlines and picked the "rebel" race. I found it just fitting (causation due to lore) that their ships were nimble and good for hit and run. I also found it interesting Minmater having a lot of low sec, it was just fitting with the rest of the lore.
The actual ships choices came later, actually I asked my first corp CEO which Minmatar ships were good for me to train and he told me.

This is my little case, I am sure I am not alone at this. Not everybody have born with pure min max and quickest path to fortune in mind.


ok, we have come around to your argument of "some people might be subtlely influenced to train ships of the race of their chosen character despite there being no in-game reason or advantage to matched bloodlines and shiptypes whatsoever, and therefore bloodline matters, while irl citizenship is utterly meaningless", and therefore highsec players have actual interaction with the empires they live in and actual responsibilities to that empire

that is so transparently insane i am willing to leave it at that

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#273 - 2012-12-17 17:51:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Weaselior wrote:
risk is your factories being able to be assaulted or caputured, your ships with resources or finished procucts caught in transit and destroyed, and the like

it is not "well my wothless ship could die and my implantless clone could be podded" it is real risk where if you don't do things right you could suffer real loss


I can't fly with an inplant-less clone in these days, because I have my clones in a Rorqual and some 0.0 regions and don't want to pop them.

As for the finished products in transit etc. I don't have a JF for Jita shows.


You just seem unable to cope with the simple fact that not everybody think like you or have their own opinions.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2012-12-17 17:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No, I don't move out to 0.0 because out there are no markets to swing trade. I even asked one of your guys if you had something suitable in VFK but he said no Cry


yeah no you actually were honest earlier:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well.


you aren't in 0.0 because it is scary

now granted, because of the broken industry in 0.0 there are not vibrant markets to trade in (because industry is broken and all markets are merely derivative of jita) but you're complaining about the lack of 0.0 being turned into highsec, then suddenly claiming you're just not in 0.0 because its not jita

this is a forum, the things you said before are easily checked and you are busily trying to say you did not say the things that are in plain text for anyone to read and saying inane things like this instead

given swing trading has nothing to do with your call for npc guards in 0.0 we can safely throw that reasoning out

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#275 - 2012-12-17 17:55:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

As for doing third party transactions, it's not like they always bother forewarning me, I go with a cov ops when 5 minutes before I was in a cov ops, I go with whatever I have handy.


which doesn't make you comparing the risk of losing that ship to the risk that would be involved in running nullsec industry any less laughable.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#276 - 2012-12-17 17:56:52 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No, I don't move out to 0.0 because out there are no markets to swing trade. I even asked one of your guys if you had something suitable in VFK but he said no Cry


yeah no you actually were honest earlier:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well.


you aren't in 0.0 because it is scary

now granted, because of the broken industry in 0.0 there are not vibrant markets to trade in (because industry is broken and all markets are merely derivative of jita) but you're complaining about the lack of 0.0 being turned into highsec, then suddenly claiming you're just not in 0.0 because its not jita

this is a forum, the things you said before are easily checked and you are busily trying to say you did not say the things that are in plain text for anyone to read and saying inane things like this instead

given swing trading has nothing to do with your call for npc guards in 0.0 we can safely throw that reasoning out

My my, caught by the ability of the forums to store information and posters to look it up.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#277 - 2012-12-17 17:57:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No, I don't move out to 0.0 because out there are no markets to swing trade. I even asked one of your guys if you had something suitable in VFK but he said no Cry


yeah no you actually were honest earlier:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well.


you aren't in 0.0 because it is scary

now granted, because of the broken industry in 0.0 there are not vibrant markets to trade in (because industry is broken and all markets are merely derivative of jita) but you're complaining about the lack of 0.0 being turned into highsec, then suddenly claiming you're just not in 0.0 because its not jita

this is a forum, the things you said before are easily checked and you are busily trying to say you did not say the things that are in plain text for anyone to read and saying inane things like this instead

given swing trading has nothing to do with your call for npc guards in 0.0 we can safely throw that reasoning out


Nope, if there were nations in null sec (including guards) then traders could move goods in there and create a true second Jita where I could do my stuff.
Does not seem too complex to infer.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#278 - 2012-12-17 17:58:03 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

As for doing third party transactions, it's not like they always bother forewarning me, I go with a cov ops when 5 minutes before I was in a cov ops, I go with whatever I have handy.


which doesn't make you comparing the risk of losing that ship to the risk that would be involved in running nullsec industry any less laughable.


Where did I compare losing a ship to industry?

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2012-12-17 17:58:08 UTC
i am not afraid of risk, I venture into wormholes in a ship that warps cloaked with +3s, which means I basically cannot die unless I screw up and my death is basically a rounding error but I could die 14 times for the price of someone losing a single freighter in null (the thing we are actually discussing and I would never do) so clearly i am not afraid of risk

now please put concord in 0.0 tia

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#280 - 2012-12-17 17:58:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
My my, caught by the ability of the forums to store information and posters to look it up.


Look, some nose just got a bit more brown.

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