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Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#241 - 2012-12-17 17:10:00 UTC

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Also, I have born in a place and got moved at 1 month old, everything was meaningless fluff on me and hand no impact on my life yet I will forever be tagged with that birth nationality.

yes because irl citizenship matters and eve citizenship does not exist, merely meaningless fluff, just as we told you and you disputed

IRL citizenship does not matter beyond some writings on a piece of paper too. A piece of paper you can change these days and pronto! you are now another country citizen and avoid taxes!

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Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#242 - 2012-12-17 17:11:09 UTC

anyone who thinks "the game should protect me from anyone trying to kill me" shouldn't even be considering 0.0 and should probably be considering another game

0.0 is where the strong survive, not the people who actually just want it to be highsec but with their name on it (we would murder these people anyway no matter what guards you connned ccp into giving you and make sure to burn your region to the ground and salt the earth)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#243 - 2012-12-17 17:12:16 UTC

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

IRL citizenship does not matter beyond some writings on a piece of paper too. A piece of paper you can change these days and pronto! you are now another country citizen and avoid taxes!

yeah no citizenship is hugely important and seriously affects your life and that you can change it doesn't change that one bit

better luck next time I would suggest for your next attempt at a metaphor you don't use law

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#244 - 2012-12-17 17:13:48 UTC | Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

How do you implement functional 24/7 player guards if you want a "civilized" empire and not just a glorified PvP outpost?
I did not really love camping gates for 5-6 hours turns back at the time, and we had just to guard 3-4 entrances to *1-2* systems.

You don't get to have perfect safety, go play WOW

all of EVE is pvp, 'civilized' has no place here

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well. You either have a permanent emergency military headquarter or you have a proper nation.

I am not sure why you want to limit your progress to "before civilization" status but then you also have to accept the additional downsides of not having a trusty and established nation behind your shoulders.

Edit: I mean, your own grunts want a place to live and call home.

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Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#245 - 2012-12-17 17:14:26 UTC

i mean sure, you can easily become a citizen of various joke nations everybody else tries to get out of asap but to get citizenship in a prosperous nation that you'd actually want to be a citizen of? that's going to take you years and a lot of work

or you could just tell the millions of people who want to be american citizens but can't it's just meaningless paper easy to change and watch as they laugh in your face

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Dramaticus

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 615

#246 - 2012-12-17 17:16:11 UTC

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Also, I have born in a place and got moved at 1 month old, everything was meaningless fluff on me and hand no impact on my life yet I will forever be tagged with that birth nationality.

yes because irl citizenship matters and eve citizenship does not exist, merely meaningless fluff, just as we told you and you disputed

IRL citizenship does not matter beyond some writings on a piece of paper too. A piece of paper you can change these days and pronto! you are now another country citizen and avoid taxes!

Is this how you tried to skirt paying taxes irl

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#247 - 2012-12-17 17:17:39 UTC

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well. You either have a permanent emergency military headquarter or you have a proper nation.

nope

your lack of imagination and terror at the idea of risk isn't shared by actual 0.0 dwellers

you give me proper tools to fix the crippling issues with null industry - trit, refineries, slots, competing with highsec pricexs - and I'll have industry in dek to rival anywhere in empire without promising people that CONCORD will protect them (because goons, unlike you, know how to deal with risk, reduce it, factor it into business plans, and have enough firepower behind them to make themselves secure without bleating to ccp to do it for them)

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Malphilos

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 383

#248 - 2012-12-17 17:19:49 UTC

Weaselior wrote:

Malphilos wrote:

If life in null is now too tough, go ahead and propose a buff.

those have been proposed ad nauseum, they just all require certain broken features of highsec to be toned down because highsec's brokenness with industry is what breaks null industry

No, it's the ease of transport that "breaks" null industry.

More slots in null requires no change to high. Cost changes require no change to high. Mining is already available, and mineral availability is higher.

What's left? Ease of use. It's easier to move from high. Null is too tough. We're looking for highsec ease of use for nullsec.
No?

Dramaticus

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 615

#249 - 2012-12-17 17:20:06 UTC

CONCORD was no match for a bunch of us in destroyers in Empire why would we want their help in 0.0

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#250 - 2012-12-17 17:20:08 UTC

i do not demand ccp provide me with an NPC nation behind me because i and my friends are strong enough to protect ourselves and are able to deal with the challenge and not merely survive but thrive

the weak flee to empire, while the strong survive and prosper
then the weak complain to ccp that it isn't fair that a game has losers

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Imports Plus

Doomheim

Likes received: 193

#251 - 2012-12-17 17:20:19 UTC

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Imo a lot of the defensive postures would go if there'd be a groupthink (including CCP) where a true direction and "model" for player made empires was established.

This is a really good idea. A player council that could consult directly with CCP on design directions! They could even elect knowledgable players to such a council! We could call it: the Council of Stellar Management or CSM for short. Make it so Smile

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#252 - 2012-12-17 17:22:41 UTC

Malphilos wrote:

wrong

because everything in null has to be imported ease of transport drops away: you can either import a finished hull or you can import minerals and freighter them around like a madman

the idea mineral avalibility is higher in 0.0 is so absurd i don't even know how to deal with someone with that little grasp of the facts

in short, npc alt: unsuprisingly knows nothing about nullsec industry

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#253 - 2012-12-17 17:23:50 UTC

Dramaticus wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Also, I have born in a place and got moved at 1 month old, everything was meaningless fluff on me and hand no impact on my life yet I will forever be tagged with that birth nationality.

yes because irl citizenship matters and eve citizenship does not exist, merely meaningless fluff, just as we told you and you disputed

IRL citizenship does not matter beyond some writings on a piece of paper too. A piece of paper you can change these days and pronto! you are now another country citizen and avoid taxes!

Is this how you tried to skirt paying taxes irl

No, that's what I see every time they show the news about rich Americans / French moving out like that.

If I wanted to skirt paying taxes I'd just stay in my country, they are totally clueless at how to catch tax evaders.

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Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#254 - 2012-12-17 17:25:54 UTC

basically for t2 ships they're so small you can't make transportation costs significant without utterly breaking the ability to import things into 0.0 which is absolutely needed for it to function, such as fuel

for t1 ships there's no lowends in 0.0 anyway so transportation costs are everything whether you build in null or import built, it's just less transport to import built ships than import compressed mins then decompress then move then build then move built ships

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#255 - 2012-12-17 17:29:01 UTC

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

have you managed to come around to a point as it relates to eve yet or have we fully won this argument that real citizenship matters significantly while eve "citizenship" does not exist and what does exist is meaningless fluff

because if you'll recall that was the point rather than your particular stories about how you evade irl taxes

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#256 - 2012-12-17 17:29:58 UTC

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

If civilized has no place here, then industry and research don't as well. You either have a permanent emergency military headquarter or you have a proper nation.

So far my lack of imagination has brought here some examples and implementations, while you limited to rebuttals.
My imagination might not suit you but that does not mean I don't have it.

Also, show my "terror", I used my first titan bridge when I could barely fly a Rupture and participated to my first carrier bait and kill in a T1 fitted BC.
These days my "terror" consists about putting some dozens billions in the markets and predict where prices will go. I lost 1 B against "you" in Technetium, gained about 30B in mega and zydrine trades.

I just don't have time to pew pew with ships but hey 30B made on the markets are a good portion worth of a "soloed" fitted supercarrier kill with a loss of about 1 carrier.

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Bump Truck

Doomheim

Likes received: 284

#257 - 2012-12-17 17:31:00 UTC

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Heck, I even imagine at a certain point it'd be possible to unlock some NPC guards "SovCord" and finally achieve a true *empire* not just a glorified PvP territory.

If EvE was like this, I'd return to null sec tomorrow.

At no point should 0.0 become highsec or have automated npc defenses. The need for being able to upgrade local industry and create genuine empires has been written about at length (by me, and others), but it is about giving players tools to create empires and an industrial base, not allowing them to create highsec. NPC guards would never enter into the equation.

I see your point, it depends what the mechanics are, like the ability to build some sort of gate guns shouldn't be out of the question.

Love your articles on the mittani dude, it's go to reading for the nullsec debate.

Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#258 - 2012-12-17 17:32:23 UTC | Edited by: Weaselior

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

So far my lack of imagination has brought here some examples and implementations, while you limited to rebuttals.
My imagination might not suit you but that does not mean I don't have it.

uh yeah i've run industry in null for years and do today and help run the most successful alliance in the game with the closest thing to a functioning 0.0 market in the game and have clearly explained the flaws with the current model and what holds us back

you complain that you could not bear the risk of 0.0 without concord and your imagination is "well lets make 0.0 highsec, but players get to choose the names!"

the point of 0.0 industry isn't to be highsec industry, but in a different place, it's to be industry under combat conditions, something actually tricky and complex rather than a series of boring riskless steps

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vaerah Vahrokha

Vahrokh Consulting

Likes received: 5,809

#259 - 2012-12-17 17:34:21 UTC

Weaselior wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

EvE empires affect game play enough that people skill up and fly their empire ships. That's quite of an huge impact, even if on paper it's not forcible, yet it happens.
I can fly all Minmatar ships up to supercaps and my research alts have skills to V related to Minmatar invention (others are at IV) and I used to do L4 missions in Minmatar space.
Many others follow a similar path.

Comparatively speaking citizenship had more impact on my EvE character than me being in my country, I only bought a national car in my life and so on.

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Weaselior

GoonWaffe

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 7,457

#260 - 2012-12-17 17:34:52 UTC

Bump Truck wrote:

Gate guns are not a good idea (and also sort of pointless) but not all that bad, NPC police on the other hand would basically ruin 0.0. 0.0 industry won't be interesting without risk and it shouldn't be eliminated.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

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