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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#221 - 2012-12-17 16:42:19 UTC
to buff highend minerals you change grav anom mining so it doesn't generate a fixed distribution of minerals, and you create superveld and other factors that make lowend mining possible in null so the natural balancing caused by choice in mining opportunities exists instead of bottlenecking

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#222 - 2012-12-17 16:43:50 UTC
in other words you fix the crippling issue with null we've been screaming about for years

or you could go with "to save the village, it was necessary to destroy it" or white is black and up is down and buffs are actually nerfs and nerfs are actually buffs, chaos reigns

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#223 - 2012-12-17 16:45:13 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Since new players start tagged with a NPC corp of a certain empire, many of them come from a NPC school, they are citizens. Thukker might be borderline but all the others are quite established as citizens.

no they're not because bloodline and starter npc corp and the rest are completely meaningless fluff that has no impact on the game or your character whatsoever, quite unlike being a citizen of a country

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#224 - 2012-12-17 16:45:36 UTC
Aila Garris wrote:
Alright, so, here's what I've gotten out of the last few pages of this thread: The issue with high-sec and null-sec seems to largely come down to industry, namely that it's a lot more profitable to set up shop in high-sec than it is in null-sec. And it is. Like Tyberious, I'm going to produce a list of reasons why industry is so much better in high-sec and why you can't do anything about it.

1) Expectations. Industry, for a lot of null alliances, is a dirty word. If you're not out there in the fleet in a PvP ship you're useless deadweight to them.

2) Logistics. High-sec has more people running around in it and has much more solidly-established trade hubs than anywhere else in the game, and to an industrial pilot this is important.

3) Unacceptable Risk. Industry is not the most profitable thing in the game, especially not compared to things like market trading, scamming, incursions, or null-sec anomaly farming. Yet the tools an industrialist needs to set up an empire, namely mining barges, exhumers, freighters, and industrial command ships, are among the most expensive and fragile things in the game.

4) Profit. This is always what it ultimately comes down to. People in null-sec, in my experience, don't like paying a lot more than Jita prices for anything.

And this is a problem you're never going to be able to fix with mechanical nerfs to high-sec. Either you need to make it easier to set up operations in null-sec or lose the stigma against non-PvP pilots and actually help them get set up out there. Otherwise no matter what you do you'll just make industry across all of EVE harder, which raises the prices on everything you have to import while making it no more available than it already is.




1) I disagree, I think all null alliances to industry of some sort of another, even if it is only a logistics core and these pilots are well respected.

2) High sec will always have the trade hubs because they will always be in the safest and best policed area. However a system could be set up where you could be self sufficient in null, only trading 2-3% of your goods, rather than wholesale importing. This would greatly reduce the importance of trade hubs,

3) Null already has expensive, fragile, things in it. If they made a lot of money and were worth having there would be all the equipment needed to build an industrial base. Risk is always paired with reward. I'd happily fly a ship with 1 hit point if it made me a billion isk an hour.

4) The point of any rebalancing is to let people in null make their own stuff, to let them pay for it with time + effort not ISK. They only want Jita + 10% as everything is imported. If they made it themselves for less than the Jita price they would be happy.


The goal of this whole thing isn't to make industry harder, it's to make it easier.


Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#225 - 2012-12-17 16:49:19 UTC
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
Highsec offers citizenship.

These bad nullsec alliances do not. They are simply a large group of pirates. If they would actually use their 'empire' for something and create content maybe people would be more easily persuaded into venturing out there.



But no. Conquer all of nullsec. Do absolutely nothing with it. Cry about nerfing hisec.

Stay classy, nullbears Pirate



I disagree completely. HighSec offers nothing. The empires let you live in their space but they don't fight for you, they won't protect you if you wander off, they don't help you if you get wardecced. They only look out for themselves.

My null corp are my buddies, we live together, we die together. Any problem I have they will help with, you can't wardec me without wardeccing them. They support and help me and I do the same for them.

We are not "pirates", though piracy is super cool, we just choose to live on our own in our own space not in empire.

If you could do something useful for us I'm sure we could set you to blue.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#226 - 2012-12-17 16:51:30 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:
A better analogy is HighSec is europe and Null is the american colonies, why should the colonies not be allowed to build an industrial base if they went through the pain and difficulty of a revolution? (Though I think in general real world analogies should be avoided).

Thanks and I look forward to a reply.


I think a more fitting analogy would be with Australia, as it's so much secluded and resources rich.

There was another space based nice game, actually it was a lovely Star Wars RTS (including player vs player) where you'd build your own empire (rebels or empire) on new planets, forge new alliances, instill terror, start awesome big space ships fleet battles etc. etc.
That was a nice, gradual development model. You'd start on new no upgrades planets, they were inefficient and defenseless, it was your task - using limited resources - to make those planets strongs and bountiful. But they would not become powerhouses, they would "just" become as good as the other planets, including the easily defended ones close to your base.

Imo null sec should *start* like it's now (to simulate a newly arrived population) but then allow progressive empire building, unlock production and research, unlock multiple stations per system and so on.

Heck, I even imagine at a certain point it'd be possible to unlock some NPC guards "SovCord" and finally achieve a true *empire* not just a glorified PvP territory.

If EvE was like this, I'd return to null sec tomorrow.

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Bump Truck
Doomheim
#227 - 2012-12-17 16:51:47 UTC



Thank you all for the input. I am really glad this thread has stayed civil and I've enjoyed reading all the posts (well most of them).


One thing I would like to point out is in 12 pages there isn't one cogent, well written, argument about why highsec "cannot" be nerfed. I think it has to remain on the table as an option for CCP.


I think a lot of the debate has shifted to how to improve null, and that will require a lot more than a highsec nerf (and that nerf may not even be necessary).
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#228 - 2012-12-17 16:52:25 UTC
Historically the only other non-Goon group to do the vast majority of its living in nullsec was drone region renters. You know, the guys that were ******* swimming in minerals and didn't have industry troubles.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#229 - 2012-12-17 16:52:41 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:

I think a lot of the debate has shifted to how to improve null, and that will require a lot more than a highsec nerf (and that nerf may not even be necessary).

the two are inextricably intertwined and cannot be seperated

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#230 - 2012-12-17 16:53:56 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:
A better analogy is HighSec is europe and Null is the american colonies, why should the colonies not be allowed to build an industrial base if they went through the pain and difficulty of a revolution? (Though I think in general real world analogies should be avoided).

Thanks and I look forward to a reply.


I think a more fitting analogy would be with Australia, as it's so much secluded and resources rich.

There was another space based nice game, actually it was a lovely Star Wars RTS (including player vs player) where you'd build your own empire (rebels or empire) on new planets, forge new alliances, instill terror, start awesome big space ships fleet battles etc. etc.
That was a nice, gradual development model. You'd start on new no upgrades planets, they were inefficient and defenseless, it was your task - using limited resources - to make those planets strongs and bountiful. But they would not become powerhouses, they would "just" become as good as the other planets, including the easily defended ones close to your base.

Imo null sec should *start* like it's now (to simulate a newly arrived population) but then allow progressive empire building, unlock production and research, unlock multiple stations per system and so on.

Heck, I even imagine at a certain point it'd be possible to unlock some NPC guards "SovCord" and finally achieve a true *empire* not just a glorified PvP territory.

If EvE was like this, I'd return to null sec tomorrow.



That would be awesome.

"Sovcord" could have a hangar and you could supply the ships and those are the ships that would fly out to attack criminals, sort of like mega-drones.

This is the kind of direction I would love to see CCP taking null. Not leaving it as a bragging rights only territory.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#231 - 2012-12-17 16:55:46 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Since new players start tagged with a NPC corp of a certain empire, many of them come from a NPC school, they are citizens. Thukker might be borderline but all the others are quite established as citizens.

no they're not because bloodline and starter npc corp and the rest are completely meaningless fluff that has no impact on the game or your character whatsoever, quite unlike being a citizen of a country


Well, now they do, but it was till "recent" times it'd impact on your stats. All those Caldari lab alts were not randomly made.

Also, I have born in a place and got moved at 1 month old, everything was meaningless fluff on me and hand no impact on my life yet I will forever be tagged with that birth nationality.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#232 - 2012-12-17 16:56:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Heck, I even imagine at a certain point it'd be possible to unlock some NPC guards "SovCord" and finally achieve a true *empire* not just a glorified PvP territory.

If EvE was like this, I'd return to null sec tomorrow.

At no point should 0.0 become highsec or have automated npc defenses. The need for being able to upgrade local industry and create genuine empires has been written about at length (by me, and others), but it is about giving players tools to create empires and an industrial base, not allowing them to create highsec. NPC guards would never enter into the equation.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#233 - 2012-12-17 17:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Also, I have born in a place and got moved at 1 month old, everything was meaningless fluff on me and hand no impact on my life yet I will forever be tagged with that birth nationality.

yes because irl citizenship matters and eve citizenship does not exist, merely meaningless fluff, just as we told you and you disputed

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#234 - 2012-12-17 17:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Malphilos
Bump Truck wrote:

One thing I would like to point out is in 12 pages there isn't one cogent, well written, argument about why highsec "cannot" be nerfed. I think it has to remain on the table as an option for CCP.


Sure, highsec can be nerfed. But that's not really a meaningful question in the end.

The real question to ask is whether it should be. There are lots of things that can be done, but that doesn't mean they're either necessary, efficient or prudent (see: nullsec industry).

I'm of the opinion that because of a few very basic game factors (immortality, multiple characters, ease of isk transfer) it is not possible to increase nullsec viability through nerfing high without actually crippling highsec. I know there are some folks who wouldn't mind, and in fact may actually support that outcome but it strikes me as being , again, neither necessary nor prudent.

If life in null is now too tough, go ahead and propose a buff.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#235 - 2012-12-17 17:03:16 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
If life in null is now too tough, go ahead and propose a buff.

those have been proposed ad nauseum, they just all require certain broken features of highsec to be toned down because highsec's brokenness with industry is what breaks null industry

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#236 - 2012-12-17 17:05:02 UTC
Bump Truck wrote:

Thank you all for the input. I am really glad this thread has stayed civil and I've enjoyed reading all the posts (well most of them).

One thing I would like to point out is in 12 pages there isn't one cogent, well written, argument about why highsec "cannot" be nerfed. I think it has to remain on the table as an option for CCP.


I think a lot of the debate has shifted to how to improve null, and that will require a lot more than a highsec nerf (and that nerf may not even be necessary).



Imo a lot of the defensive postures would go if there'd be a groupthink (including CCP) where a true direction and "model" for player made empires was established.

I mean, if there'd be a plan about creating *true* null sec empires that would allow "civilians" to just drop hi sec and move there like it was hi sec but player managed then there'd be very few resistance against all those rolling nerfs demanded left and right.

Basically a player made empire should be "like" being in hi sec, with the difference that taxes go to those who created the null sec empire and protect it (or made it possible to unlock NPCs to protect it).

At this point, those player made empires would compete between themselves about which allows a best life vs the amount of taxes, a bit like RL does.

But first has to come the PLAN to get there and it has to be CCP official.

Done that, you'll see how hi seccers will have no issue at rebalancing, actually since null sec empires would become more like hi sec empires there'd be an equalization of rewards making most nerfs obsolete and nobody would care anyway.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#237 - 2012-12-17 17:07:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Heck, I even imagine at a certain point it'd be possible to unlock some NPC guards "SovCord" and finally achieve a true *empire* not just a glorified PvP territory.

If EvE was like this, I'd return to null sec tomorrow.

At no point should 0.0 become highsec or have automated npc defenses. The need for being able to upgrade local industry and create genuine empires has been written about at length (by me, and others), but it is about giving players tools to create empires and an industrial base, not allowing them to create highsec. NPC guards would never enter into the equation.



How do you implement functional 24/7 player guards if you want a "civilized" empire and not just a glorified PvP outpost?
I did not really love camping gates for 5-6 hours turns back at the time, and we had just to guard 3-4 entrances to *1-2* systems.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#238 - 2012-12-17 17:07:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Basically a player made empire should be "like" being in hi sec, with the difference that taxes go to those who created the null sec empire and protect it (or made it possible to unlock NPCs to protect it).

absolutely not, and this is why empire carebears terrified of someone being able to blow their stuff up cannot be allowed to have input on design decisions

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#239 - 2012-12-17 17:07:54 UTC
it's charmingly naive how you think that sweeping buffs to nullsec won't be regarded as anything but nerfs to highsec by quite a few obnoxiously loud players.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#240 - 2012-12-17 17:08:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

How do you implement functional 24/7 player guards if you want a "civilized" empire and not just a glorified PvP outpost?
I did not really love camping gates for 5-6 hours turns back at the time, and we had just to guard 3-4 entrances to *1-2* systems.

You don't get to have perfect safety, go play WOW

all of EVE is pvp, 'civilized' has no place here

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.