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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2012-12-17 15:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
TharOkha wrote:

Yes this is the exact gheto thinking i was talking about. Same thinking are among african countries.

Look I know that nullsec is full of asshats that will shoot anything that moves, thus preventing you from making your claimed space safe for neutrals. But thats the problem of low/null dwellers. Its not fault of hisec dwellers that null suck and that 90% of its dwellers are savage monkeys. Hisec works because it has reasonable dwellers.

There are already better rewards from PvE activities in low/null.
And what about Jita? And trading?.And industry?.Jita is succesfull because traders/manufacturers are no fighters. They will trade anywhere where its safe. Its like wallstreet. no Trader will trade in the middle of foking desert.

What prevents null from making a couple of NO FIGHT ZONE star systems open for all (you know - diplomacy)? There should be ageement among all low/null dwellers that certain systems will be safe for neutrals. You know, player made police, player made military (OMG Sandbox). You can profit from docking fees, you can profit from taxes, gatecamps could levy tolls ...oh wait... gatecamps would surely shred those ships to pieces.....But aggain... thats the problem of low/null dwellers themselves.

Hisec is not most profitable region. If null could have reasonable dwellers it could outprofit hisec by orders of magnitude. Hisec is just mirror of how bad are low/null dwellers at utilizing opportunities.

But nerfing Hisec just because of incompetence of low/null dwellers?... LOL

As i said before: "Gangsters who lives in the woods are complaining about criminality in the woods".


Please since you are bringing IRL to this, explain to me which countries would allow completely FREE resource extraction. Also explain why its a bad thing to defend your space from potential hostiles. The only reason Jita is good is because of the concentration of infrastructure (station slots) and population density there is literally the competition of 1000 other people all in one spot. If there were no "fighters" then the demand for ships/modules would plummet and all of those traders would be completely worthless, you cannot separate fighters/industrialists.

Your entire argument is basically "I don't like nullsec because people will shoot at me," I don't think I have to explain why this one is a terrible argument. There is a place for you and it is Providence, there they practice NRDS (Not Red Don't Shoot for those that don't know) you'll be allowed to happily mine your heart away without worry that they will shoot you. Now because of this their space is intrinsically less secure and there are more predators in it looking for prey like yourself. So they won't shoot you but other people who easily invade their space will.

The things that prevent us from making space for neutrals is effort, desire, and mechanics. Why should we spend man hours maintaining 24/7 gate camps to keep the neutrals safe? I can tell you docking fees won't be enough, hell technetium is not enough to warrant that. Also what can these neutrals possibly offer us that a coalition member couldn't? The answer is nothing, there is no incentive to bring random neutral people to our space and let them use it when it could go to benefiting someone who helped earn the space. There are not mechanics in place for player made CONCORD to work.

You are wrong when you say highsec is not the most profitable area. There are several indicators of this mineral price, character concentration, number of missions run, and market information shows it. You're probably thinking because the rat out in nullsec is worth 1.5x more than the highsec variant that means nullsec is more profitable. That is incorrect because we cannot rat continuously, we must always be watching for hostiles and when a potential hostile comes into the system we have to get ourselves safe or risk undoing what took us an hour or more to make.

The highsec analogy would be as if you had a group of suicide gankers on gate that had no concern for CONCORD, you wouldn't be able to run missions continuously if they were on your gate. You'd have to dock up or risk losing several hours worth of mission time.

E: I bolded the part where you allege there are RL countries that will allow you to extract resources for free.

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#202 - 2012-12-17 15:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
I want to share a secret about moon mining with those that think it's a "benefit" to be in a corp that does it.

It doesn't.
In fact, it benefits high sec more than me.

I don't build T2 components in null; not unless the cost of the component is higher than it would be for me to build, which is rarely.

There are no T2 components to buy where I am in null.
I can't even by moon materials to make the components in null. I can't even sell the frigging stuff.

Moongoo is produced in null, shipped to high, converted into components, and those components get shipped back to null.

I'm sure that there's a way for me to work out buying directly, but I'm to lazy to figure out who to talk to to find out if it's possible.

Now, I'm not privy to any kind of extended information that would make it clear as to why it works this way, I only have a very basic understanding of economics that can be summed up as:

"You don't buy Texas beef in Texas, or Florida oranges in Florida."
Corporations need to profit from moon mining to so that they can finance corporate activities, like war. Selling locally usually means you make less, because you can sell for more when you export to an area that does not posses what you export.

Florida oranges are worth more in any state that doesn't grow Florida oranges.

And I'm perfectly fine with that.



High sec industrialists and the null sec corp that owns the moon are the only entitites that benefit from moon mining, not the rank and file industrialist in null.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#203 - 2012-12-17 15:56:52 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

It doesn't matter what it is. If it is profitable at all for people who haven't been playing for the months to years needed to get perfect skills, and it is scalable so that nobody is excluded from playing the game just because someone else logged in first, then it will be abusable by people with better character skills and superior player knowledge.

Period.

It doesn't matter how it is structured unless people get locked out of the content when their skill level gets too high.

"I'm sorry, you've to 20M skill points, you aren't allowed to run L1 missions any more. Go find a nice Gallente girl."

What?

When did anyone ever say anything about increasing mission difficulty?
What does reducing the amount missions pay, or thining NPC drops in high sec, or incrasing the taxes in high sec, have to do with anyone being able to do a mission?



I'll type this slowly and use small words, since it seems you can't read so fast:

If you cut payouts enough that veteran players can't abuse the system, relatively new players won't profit from them at all. The only way to allow reasonable payouts for new players is to lock the people who could abuse the missions out. This is already done to a limited extent with ship restrictions, but I guess those aren't restrictive enough.

Besides, highsec drops have already been thinned, you don't think the drone compound and T1 module nerf was restricted to nullsec, do you?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
TharOkha
0asis Group
#204 - 2012-12-17 16:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

If I can't trust the guy next to me in high sec, why in the world would I trust that lone guy "who just wants to pass through" more?
Oh, he's deffinately not scouting our space? He can't possibly be looking for stations that produce super caps, or what system might mining OP's be working in today.


Well i agree. But as far as i know hisec is not responsible for the nullsec FUBAR situation, and that nearly every neutral is someones spying alt. That there is astronomical paranoia among nullsecers. Why do you blame hisec for this? Why should be hisec punished for this?

Quote:
YOU are not the person we want to come to null sec, because you obviously have an issue with PvP. People who don't mind PvP don't complain that they flew through someone elses space, that they need to keep secure and as free of apposing intel as possible, and got shot. Those people understand that if you're not blue your probably not a friend, and your presence is a threat.


Agree again. But is this a reason to nerf Hisec?

Quote:
It is not acceptable that the places that have that added risk don't pay out any better, and in some cases actually worse than, high sec.


But null has already better payments/rats/etc. That added risk is player driven, and its not hisec fault.

What null realy needs is POS overhaul, more manufacturing / invention / copying /etc slots on outposts (much more than on npc station), giving more options to control your soverenity to profit from soverenity. Not just nerf hisec. Null has a huge profit potential and its sad that its untapped.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2012-12-17 16:11:17 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who are you going to blame and nerf once thanks to the null buffs, zydrine will be worth 100 ISK pu and Mega 400?.

the magic pink unicorns shooting out of my ass that are equally likely

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#206 - 2012-12-17 16:12:07 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
Highsec offers citizenship.

These bad nullsec alliances do not.


Rubbish. I am much more a "citizen" of the region I helped finance, build, organize and actively patrol and defend every day than someone who logs in to high sec.

High sec offers single-player EVE, and that's it.


"That's it" is somewhat a diminishing definition.
There are scores of people who for many a reason had to downgrade from multi-player to single player style.
That's one of the several concepts the WoW designers understood long ago, that is the wealthy player base is aging and their life affects them and makes them much more "casual".

While WoW intentionally started implementing content for those players since their first "new world" expansion, EvE somehow randomly got them a niche to enjoy too, actually 2-3: hi sec, low sec and C1-C2 WHs. All those "secs" have quick "log in, do stuff" features so even if you have 2 children and work keeps you off for most of the day, you can still play EvE with fun.

Now, what you see on the exterior is a guy in a deadspace fit Machariel. That guy knows he'll never be able to enjoy the "full game", to create or be part of a big famous empire, but he can still plan and forge his own little future in the form of 1-2 nice ships in his free time and that makes EvE worth playing for him.

Take away all of that and suddenly EvE will have lost a great chance to keep those players.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#207 - 2012-12-17 16:12:19 UTC
stop dumping zyd on the open market princess sparkles

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#208 - 2012-12-17 16:19:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Pretty GuyYeah wrote:
Highsec offers citizenship.

These bad nullsec alliances do not.


Rubbish. I am much more a "citizen" of the region I helped finance, build, organize and actively patrol and defend every day than someone who logs in to high sec.

High sec offers single-player EVE, and that's it.


"That's it" is somewhat a diminishing definition.
There are scores of people who for many a reason had to downgrade from multi-player to single player style.
That's one of the several concepts the WoW designers understood long ago, that is the wealthy player base is aging and their life affects them and makes them much more "casual".

While WoW intentionally started implementing content for those players since their first "new world" expansion, EvE somehow randomly got them a niche to enjoy too, actually 2-3: hi sec, low sec and C1-C2 WHs. All those "secs" have quick "log in, do stuff" features so even if you have 2 children and work keeps you off for most of the day, you can still play EvE with fun.

Now, what you see on the exterior is a guy in a deadspace fit Machariel. That guy knows he'll never be able to enjoy the "full game", to create or be part of a big famous empire, but he can still plan and forge his own little future in the form of 1-2 nice ships in his free time and that makes EvE worth playing for him.

Take away all of that and suddenly EvE will have lost a great chance to keep those players.



All the more reason to improve the facilities in 0.0 to support convenience play, so that people who's lives get busy aren't forced to abandon their friends and interests in null.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#209 - 2012-12-17 16:20:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

In what sense are you a "citizen" of a hi-sec empire? Do you have any obligations? Any penalty for disloyalty? Do you serve them in any way?

No. At best, you're a mercenary who can uproot and work for a different master at any time with no consequences whatsoever.


I don't want to be a Tippia in this, but tbh hi sec empires do impose some stuff on their citizens, almost nothing if you are a new or poor man, and more if you have more possessions:

- Being in a empire corp => tax.

- Using a POS => requires standings to the empire and pay charters for the permit.

- Extracting PI => tax.

- Using an office => rent an office and then pay recurring rental fees.

- You must behave else you get policed (Concord).

- You must carry what's allowed else you get fined (Customs).

- You manufacture / research in empire stations => you pay a fee and it's affected by standings with them.

- You trade or issue contracts => you pay a fee.

I might miss some more but that's quite enough of interactions and obligations with the empires.

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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#210 - 2012-12-17 16:22:17 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In fact, you're exactly the kind of person that needs to be ganked repeatedly in high sec.


Not null I can see, but why the repeated ganking?
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#211 - 2012-12-17 16:24:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
All the more reason to improve the facilities in 0.0 to support convenience play, so that people who's lives get busy aren't forced to abandon their friends and interests in null.


Ah, so it's about convenience now.

I wondered when risk/reward was going to die.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#212 - 2012-12-17 16:24:49 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In fact, you're exactly the kind of person that needs to be ganked repeatedly in high sec.


Not null I can see, but why the repeated ganking?

people who believe they have a right to perfect safety in eve need to be vigorously and violently disabused of that notion

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#213 - 2012-12-17 16:28:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who are you going to blame and nerf once thanks to the null buffs, zydrine will be worth 100 ISK pu and Mega 400?.

the magic pink unicorns shooting out of my ass that are equally likely


So unlikely, it's already partially happened. "We didn't want that 3.8k pu megacyte anyway".

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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-12-17 16:30:22 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In fact, you're exactly the kind of person that needs to be ganked repeatedly in high sec.


Not null I can see, but why the repeated ganking?

people who believe they have a right to perfect safety in eve need to be vigorously and violently disabused of that notion


Why? Their belief doesn't make it any more true, does it?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#215 - 2012-12-17 16:30:31 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

In what sense are you a "citizen" of a hi-sec empire? Do you have any obligations? Any penalty for disloyalty? Do you serve them in any way?

No. At best, you're a mercenary who can uproot and work for a different master at any time with no consequences whatsoever.


I don't want to be a Tippia in this, but tbh hi sec empires do impose some stuff on their citizens, almost nothing if you are a new or poor man, and more if you have more possessions:

- Being in a empire corp => tax.

- Using a POS => requires standings to the empire and pay charters for the permit.

- Extracting PI => tax.

- Using an office => rent an office and then pay recurring rental fees.

- You must behave else you get policed (Concord).

- You must carry what's allowed else you get fined (Customs).

- You manufacture / research in empire stations => you pay a fee and it's affected by standings with them.

- You trade or issue contracts => you pay a fee.

I might miss some more but that's quite enough of interactions and obligations with the empires.


A visitor from Japan in the US must obey the laws and pay the appropriate fees and taxes. That doesn't make him a citizen of the US.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#216 - 2012-12-17 16:34:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

All the more reason to improve the facilities in 0.0 to support convenience play, so that people who's lives get busy aren't forced to abandon their friends and interests in null.


That was *really* my hope, until CCP decided the reply to those players were WHs.

I also fervently hope you'll get all the facilities pumped up so staying with your friends will be as easy as it can be.

I already self made my fleet from Rorqual to exhumers to carriers to BS, a number of cov ops and blockade runners and a JF just for when (if) CCP will make me able to return in there again.

I think I am not the only one who would just want to *live* in space, not shoot at other guys and ATM only hi and low sec allow for that.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#217 - 2012-12-17 16:38:02 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who are you going to blame and nerf once thanks to the null buffs, zydrine will be worth 100 ISK pu and Mega 400?.

the magic pink unicorns shooting out of my ass that are equally likely


So unlikely, it's already partially happened. "We didn't want that 3.8k pu megacyte anyway".


let us count the ways in which you are wrong

actually lets not that would take forever, let's focus on the simple one:

"look an ice asteroid crushing manhattan this year is very likely, look it has already partially happened *holds up hailstone*"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Bump Truck
Doomheim
#218 - 2012-12-17 16:39:02 UTC
Xavier Hasberin wrote:
Bump Truck wrote:
[quote=Xavier Hasberin]


Italics are mine, of course. My questions are these:

1) If you truly believe that safe places should have lower rewards, then why should places made safe by players have better rewards? Yes, effort is put in. For that effort, however, you get substantial rewards from your company, and now you're demanding industrial capacity equal to the high sec areas that you claim are broken. Surely you can see why people don't look at it as a fair proposition.

2) There's a thread running through all these posts - one that states implicitly that 'high seccers' don't deserve nor should have the best of anything because of their playstyle/choices. However, no one forced you at gunpoint to move to null sec and join an alliance. Turning the question around, why should my game be changed for the worse because you made what you now must perceive to be a bad choice?

3) My rough analogy to lowsec/highsec is, like most people, the Wild West of the 19th Century versus the populated East. Yes, even in the deepest areas of the Wild West, there were relative pockets of tranquility where people could live much more safely than in the wild on their own. None of them, however, had the industrial capabilities of the East. There was no Piedmont or anything like it in most of the West, and even to this day, more than 100 years after settling the West was a done deal, there are large swaths of the country that don't support heavy industry. Why shouldn't EVE mirror that reality?



Thanks for the input

1) Nowehre in null is safe, the goons aren't safe in Deklien, yes IF they continually put out fleets to fend off all attackers then they are safe, but they have to keep defending, always, 23/7.

This mega effort should be well rewarded (and not with top down tech, with farms and fields).

Yeah an area of null is safe when you are policing it but if you get crushed by anohter alliance you lose EVERYTHING. If you had a lot of ships in a station and you lose sov? Gone, all of them. This catastrophic risk is always there and you should get rewarded for taking it.


2) I do think HighSec players shouldn't have the best of anything. It's mad to think they would. It's fine to have a well balanced game that exists in a low risk area, but choosing never to take risks and branding yourself a "highsec player" shouldn't come with some sort of ISK package.

It should be a choice, you want safety? Sure, but you're gonna have to pay someone to make it safe for you. Either a null alliance or the empires in tax.

Or you can risk it and fly around in dangerous places and then everything you earn is yours.

No one wants to stop high sec players playing the game or kick them out or force them into null. All that's required is for null alliances to be able to build a profitable industrial base, that's enough. And because of this risk this is going to have to be more efficient than that which exists in highsec, which, ATM, is by far the most efficient now.


3) I really dislike this analogy. I addressed it in the original post. Null isn't for explorers and adventurers, it's for empire builders. WH fulfills the requirements of a wild west. Null needs industry.

A better analogy is HighSec is europe and Null is the american colonies, why should the colonies not be allowed to build an industrial base if they went through the pain and difficulty of a revolution? (Though I think in general real world analogies should be avoided).



Thanks and I look forward to a reply.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#219 - 2012-12-17 16:39:39 UTC
corestwo wrote:
A visitor from Japan in the US must obey the laws and pay the appropriate fees and taxes. That doesn't make him a citizen of the US.


Since new players start tagged with a NPC corp of a certain empire, many of them come from a NPC school, they are citizens. Thukker might be borderline but all the others are quite established as citizens.

Also, I don't know about the US but where I am moving home to, I will be a visitor just for few days then after I may produce an home rental certificate I will receive a fiscal code and become a full resident. It's not full born citizen ship but it's quite a tight tie.

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Bump Truck
Doomheim
#220 - 2012-12-17 16:40:06 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Who are you going to blame and nerf once thanks to the null buffs, zydrine will be worth 100 ISK pu and Mega 400?.

the magic pink unicorns shooting out of my ass that are equally likely


So unlikely, it's already partially happened. "We didn't want that 3.8k pu megacyte anyway".


let us count the ways in which you are wrong

actually lets not that would take forever, let's focus on the simple one:

"look an ice asteroid crushing manhattan this year is very likely, look it has already partially happened *holds up hailstone*"


Thanks for your contribution to the thread, please stay on topic and post constructive, well though through, arguments.