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You CANT Nerf HighSec!

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2141 - 2013-01-04 01:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Let's stick to what's tangible and not your imagination:

1) There were 1T damage dealt, thousands ships popped. Edit: that is a big switch from "artisan ganking by individuals" to "scorched earth as permanent profession, aided by coordinated null sec alliance pilots and infinite funding".
2) Ice prices went from 400 to 1600 in few months.
3) CCP's official word about that has been that they don't support ganking (empty ships) for profit. Now go do your work and find the exact reference, I won't bother.

Guess what was the obvious conclusion?

Decrease yield for tanking modules? Spend twos of millions of isk on empty midslots?
Pay a 10 mil/month fee to mine in 0.0 where suicide ganking was not a threat?

The greatest excesses of Hulkageddon V was not sufficient enough threat to get the 'victims' to consider any of those.
Now they complain about something called "miner bumping". So there was no real problem, merely CCP listening to forum requests. Which you claim they don't do, yes?


Apparently you have never tried surviving a Batcountry gank in a pre-buff Mackinaw, else you'd see what good you could do.

Anyway CCP can't deal with the singular cases so they buff / nerf based on statistics. Statistics that would state how in a The Forge system I know very well, the killed ships per day went from 4 to 78, local dropped from 125-ish (prime time) to 12 - 22.

Do you know what happens when 12 are out? That the constant 3-4 gank group rotating the various ice systems would enter every belt (no way to "escape") about twice a day each and would pick some of those 12 and kill them, because you can repeat it till you are green in face, there was NO WAY to effectively tank a Mack, even going all out tank-tard. It paid so well that they could just bring N + 1 ships to kill it.

As for your "empty midslots", the buff did little, in fact people keep going with empty mid slots and getting popped. Morons remained morons, the others now got more choices to put in proper tank without completely gutting the yield.

Sadly - and this should ring a bell to all those "CCP will nerf hi sec and buff null sec swiftly and nicely" guys - CCP went all the opposite way and overbuffed the ships. Because plan <> implementation, as I posted above.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2142 - 2013-01-04 01:38:23 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
During the height of hulkageddon V and people like Vaerah were going 'blarrhuauarrggh, highsec is now more dangerous then nullsec, those nullbears are raping us without risk and killing eve everyone will unsub' I was pointing to some experimental Cascade Imminent 'mining pass' program which was just a flat monthly 10m isk/member fee (Experimental in that most landlords charge on a per corp basis that is funded through bounty taxes/pve ops in my experience). Really it was just a plan to fill buy orders frof lowends because Cascade logistics were ass.

Cuz you know, if mining and industry in highsec was so tough, as they claimed, then maybe a nominal 10m fee for access to the lucrative nullsec industry would be right up their alley. As a business venture, it was sadly a failure - but it exposed the bankruptcy of the 'suffering highsec miners' argument during Hulkageddon Infinity quite well.


When somebody is ignorant about what happened and blinded by ideology then he can easily write the above.

Otherwise you'd easily find references about how good I had it during Hulkageddon V.

There's even my blog article about nitrogen isotopes being so profitable. Excerpt: "Who said that Hulkageddon is a bad thing?"

At May I was making 3B a week, I even started mining myself and all thanks to Hulkageddon which I look forward to sponsor a bit in the next edition.

Now feel free to search for additional EVE Forums references about that period, I was just drooling.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2143 - 2013-01-04 01:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
La Nariz wrote:


You claimed in an earlier post that CCP is incapable of fixing their game. I called you on that, now's the part where you either deny that you did so or confirm that you did so. The obfuscation taught at the school for ~highsec intellectuals~ isn't fooling anyone.


Basically you can't read basic English. Plan is plan (and they make plans), putting plans in practice with a polished result is not their forte. Would you like some PI alike SOV expansion, where they run out of time and you get to click on circlets? Or you prefer a piece of garbage like Dominion, with some gifted bonus to super-lag?


La Nariz wrote:

Look at these gems:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

No. Game's old and mechanics have "stabilized". Your requests (edit: the ones going beyond adding production lines to null and POSes) would be golden for an alpha status MMO, not a 10 years old one. Plus the old developers seem to have gone as well. As much as their programming practices could be labelled as "spaghetti code", it's them who brought us a game with more features 1 year ago than today. It's thanks to *them* EvE became what it is. The new ones don't seem to be able to refactor existing code without dropping much nice features like corp hangars for ships, stored hangar to open when docking and much more.


Basically CCP is not capable of fixing their game is what you are saying.


And? I am still waiting for them to let me hear music in a multi-client setup without having to mute music on all-1 at every log in.
I am also still waiting to open my corp hangars and see the correct division opened. Like - you know - it did for many many years.
I am still waiting to see inventory open as fast as once it did. Now on a secondary computer it still takes 7-8 seconds to open the items hangar vs 1 before the fantastic remake.

Ah, I also heard that removing corp hangars from capitals was really a cheerished and popular implementation.

May I sell you my captain quarters while at it? My door is nicely shut. That's implementation for you.


La Nariz wrote:

Oh look "CCP isn't capable of changing their game and adapting to the change. Their economist isn't capable of doing what he is paid to do." Now I could cite a bunch of fallacies to say why your "sky is falling if CCP changes EVE it will die" argument but until I see the :foxnews: stopping you get as little effort as possible.


The economist (and others) prepared the current setup because they thought it was the best. Now the game is 10 old, changing it would surely involve a lot of pain for them.

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Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2144 - 2013-01-04 01:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Malphilos
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Perhaps it truly is... e-honour based reasons.


Oh shullbit.

It's not nothing to do with your little catchphrase meme, and everything to do with the deliberate impression that's been created

Sorry but your musings on 'reputations' and 'impressions' being a barrier can easily be dismissed as ther unfounded claims of an uninformed NPC corp poster when simply noting the success of rental operations of the most elitist and contemptuous alliances like -A-. Or straight up celebrators of Hulkageddon like the HBC. Y'know, the groups that created those impressions.


The same folks, as you say, supposedly inviting this class of players they claim to loathe out to play.

And yet you'll pretend to be so dim as to believe that deliberate posturing and positioning has no impact at all. It's obviously untrue. So, by inference then, they're to be taken as liars.

Which finally, in your apparent bizarro universe, means they are to be trusted.


Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
And you pretend it's all a rational deliberation based on the actuality of rental agreements and mutual financial benefit?
That's what renting is, a net cost/benefit analysis.


Not if you've been lead to believe it's a lie in the first place.

Threaten to shoot everybody, and then wonder why some folks don't show up at your party. In spite of all the good things to be had. Honest.

It's snatching a cultural defeat from the jaws of victory.

That's failure.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2145 - 2013-01-04 02:01:07 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
i can't believe i have to convince garou carew and malphilos that yes renting exists...


You don't, and neither are you clueless enough to actually believe you do.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2146 - 2013-01-04 02:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Garou Carew wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Garou Carew wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
i can't believe i have to convince garou carew and malphilos that yes renting exists, despite their angry condemnations on the meanness of null sec pilots that makes 'nobody trusts them'.



I know that renting exists, it’s not all of Null that I have a problem with, just a certain highly visible element. In fact, I welcome cordial and mutually beneficial relations with Null Sec corps and even old fashioned Pirates with a skerrick of integrity.

It's not exactly a secret that the CFC doesn't rent out space.



CFC lacks the essential ingredient, integrity. They have scammed industrialists in the past and their activities have tainted the efforts of Corps who are genuinely looking for renters.

I'm sorry, did you not understand what I said?
The CFC does not put up any of their space for rent. None of our corps would be looking for renters.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tesal
#2147 - 2013-01-04 02:14:48 UTC
CCP doesn't just look at forum posts to determine what they nerf/buff, they look at the numbers too. There are 16,000 dead exhumers on the Goon leader board. That number probably did more to bring on the barge nerf than countless miner posts on the forums. I wrote on the forums long before the nerf that CCP would intervene. I saw the numbers on the leader board and came to that conclusion. It was blatantly obvious that something needed to be done.

My bet is that CCP will look at this "Nerf Hi-sec" campaign and will run the numbers for various scenarios and will conclude that the costs outweigh the benefits. They will throw a bone to null, and that will be that.

Can I have some rage filled tears now?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2148 - 2013-01-04 02:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Apparently you have never tried surviving a Batcountry gank in a pre-buff Mackinaw, else you'd see what good you could do.

Ah you must have missed the old Nicolo Hulkageddon challenge:

post a killmail of a properly tanked hulk being suicide ganked
By 'properly tanked' i mean "one able to survive 0.0 belt rats'.
If one could be found, an exhumer buff could be justified


Let's take a look now at some of the latest suicide-ganks, in consecutive, non-discriminatory order.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15759887 <- no mid-tank modules
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15759233 <- no mid-tank modules
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15759293 <- only one tank mid
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15754923 <-empty mid, greedy lows
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15758428 <- cargo scanner on a hulk, smart
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15757383 <- 2 empty mids, no resists

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15758536 <- ooh found a properly tanked exhumer... wait, it was a wardec, doesn't count

to be fair, the Nicolo Hulkageddon challenge wasn't met before the barge buff either.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2149 - 2013-01-04 02:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Malphilos wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Sorry but your musings on 'reputations' and 'impressions' being a barrier can easily be dismissed as ther unfounded claims of an uninformed NPC corp poster when simply noting the success of rental operations of the most elitist and contemptuous alliances like -A-. Or straight up celebrators of Hulkageddon like the HBC. Y'know, the groups that created those impressions.


The same folks, as you say, supposedly inviting this class of players they claim to loathe out to play.

And yet you'll pretend to be so dim as to believe that deliberate posturing and positioning has no impact at all. It's obviously untrue. So, by inference then, they're to be taken as liars.

Which finally, in your apparent bizarro universe, means they are to be trusted.
Good job, you've managed to confuse yourself.

You're the one making the assertion that that people won't mine and manufacture in 0.0 space for practically free is based on irrational, emotional fear-based reasons and not logical risk/reward assessments of the game mechanics behind the space and its limitations.

For the premise behind your claim to be true, - that is, the claim that 'scary nullsec reputation' negatively effects the decision of highsec carebears' decision to rent space, then it would follow that the alliances with the worst "anti-highsec" or whatever reputations would drive off the most bears. Instead, -A- and TEST accreted thousands of upon thousands of carebear renters from highsec, among the largest in the game, for access to nullsec resources.



Malphilos wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
And you pretend it's all a rational deliberation based on the actuality of rental agreements and mutual financial benefit?
That's what renting is, a net cost/benefit analysis.
Not if you've been lead to believe it's a lie in the first place.
Are you now claiming that owning a blueprint or a ratting ship now radically changes your belief system about EVE online? That running an advanced production chain makes you less capable of critical thinking then the guy who blaps red crosses for a fee?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2150 - 2013-01-04 03:16:59 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I'm sorry, did you not understand what I said?
The CFC does not put up any of their space for rent. None of our corps would be looking for renters.

You can try renting from -A-, though I hear you don't talk back to them.

And they're a bit out of space right now.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tesal
#2151 - 2013-01-04 04:18:56 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I'm sorry, did you not understand what I said?
The CFC does not put up any of their space for rent. None of our corps would be looking for renters.

You can try renting from -A-, though I hear you don't talk back to them.

And they're a bit out of space right now.


Thats right. Stick it to the man.
Frying Doom
#2152 - 2013-01-04 05:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Now I understand that this thread has gone from nerf NPC and make player owned better to a discussion on Sov but

OMG what a load of crap

How to make Industrialists want to own a POS = make it 0.01 isk per unit more profitable
How to make null more attractive to Indy over Hi-sec make its industrial side 0.01 more profitable.

Should space -0.0 and below be more profitable, well yes or whats the point of it being there.

EvE is now 10 years old and the same things keep cropping up.

Now Null and all 0.4 space and below is a haven for PvPrs but frankly I could not give a crap.

I am a carebear (ok some teeth may be involved) but at the end of the day I want profitability and purpose.

Is 0.4 or below currently profitable, Nope not for Indy
is 0.4 or below filled with a purpose for Indy, No not really it is easier to stay in high sec with low risk and use the close to free facilities.

Yes my view point does differ to others in some respects, for example the cowards bumping association is exactly that a bunch of cowards and I agree with a lot of people on other things, goons suck as an example.

But as effectively dedicated indy, there is no were to go, a POS is a loss financially, -0.0 is a loss financially and lets be clear my spreadsheet says financial is all that matters. So I have people telling me that I have to play the game their way as that is how it has been. NPC facilities rule and as INDY all you can do is mine and manufacture in Hi-sec.

I can PvP but I don't like too, I can trade but it is boring to me. I can shoot red Xs but I would rather bash my face in with a shovel. I am an Indy carebear.

Now as to Sov I have seen what happens and the current system is crap and is 100% PvP and shooting things, again no where for industry.

Sov needs to be based on usage with miners, ratters, plexers and everyone included with PvPrs having the role of stopping people shooting indy typs as well as stopping people setting up home in Sov systems as that would be the best way for Sov to change hands via using a system on an incursion like slide bar.

System upgrades should be related to man hours. If a system is too crappy for you to want to upgrade or use, don't, leave it to someone else. Yes blobs will always be a problem but well that's just blobs, they suck but that's life.

Eve needs to be fun for all and give all those who want to grow, room to do so. I for one am getting sick of being stuck in NPC facilities in Hi-sec because other people want to get everything and risk nothing. Hell even traders have more room for growth than miners and manufacturers do.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Garou Carew
Doomheim
#2153 - 2013-01-04 05:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Garou Carew
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I'm sorry, did you not understand what I said?
The CFC does not put up any of their space for rent. None of our corps would be looking for renters.


I understood what you said perfectly well, that doesn't stop them running scams and pogroms on Industrialists and Mining Corps and that is where the problem lays. Basically what we have is a group of entitled oxygen thieves that purport to represent the Null community but in reality only seek to further their own ambitions by whining in the forums as they seem to lack the intellect to achieve this through effective strategy and management of their corp.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2154 - 2013-01-04 05:49:58 UTC
CONCORD protection

Keep seeing this throughout the thread. Since when does CONCORD protect anything? Have suicide ganks ceased?!

Free Refining

To reduce the tax on refine requires time and effort to earn the reward by grinding the standing with a particular Non-Player Corp. It's about as interesting as grinding security status. And having standing with an Non-Player Corp does not translate to Faction wide refining access. Indeed having raised sufficient standing with a faction locks out two other factions, through negative standing. So refining is not Empire wide either.

wealthy NPC dwelling industrialist

I would be very keen to hear how such a player maintains blueprints. NPC players can not anchor a tower. Without a tower, there is a reliance on public slots. Upto 40days waiting time for a research slot in high-sec? If this is an isk printing machine, then the handle's turning really slowly. And tech2 BPO (done to death already) earn marginal returns.

barge buff

Everybody now flies a Mack. Interesting complaint. Where was this level of concern when everybody flew a hulk? (and the crowd is silent). Indeed lets widen the parameters on this. For some time the top three ships in Eve were Hulk, Drake and Hurricane. (maybe still are - CCP we need more stats). There was the occasional thread about "OP Drake" but it was never taken seriously. So, again not really an issue when one ship is the best to use. (until the missile nerf and following threadnaught) but everybody in a mack is definately imbalanced?!

and all the noise about AFK mining. It is a bannable offence or just a personal distaste? Is it is easy to bump such players out of strip mining range? Suicide gank and pod an AFK? And despite the buff, kill boards still fill with barge/exhumer deaths. Miners still don't tank, don't observe local or d-scan nor do they bother with alignment to warp. Not seeing a problem here which needs CCP intervention.


*=====

As for high sec industry, I figured out sometime ago how to really cripple it. And I am smugly amused that such an obvious solution hasn't been tried or even discovered by players who pride themselves on being complete bastards.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2155 - 2013-01-04 05:57:40 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
CONCORD protection

Keep seeing this throughout the thread. Since when does CONCORD protect anything? Have suicide ganks ceased?!

Oh please, don't pretend that CONCORD doesn't prevent people from violencing your boat unless you've filled it with candy or are otherwise a complete moron.

GetSirrus wrote:
Free Refining

To reduce the tax on refine requires time and effort to earn the reward by grinding the standing with a particular Non-Player Corp. It's about as interesting as grinding security status. And having standing with an Non-Player Corp does not translate to Faction wide refining access. Indeed having raised sufficient standing with a faction locks out two other factions, through negative standing. So refining is not Empire wide either.

wealthy NPC dwelling industrialist

I would be very keen to hear how such a player maintains blueprints. NPC players can not anchor a tower. Without a tower, there is a reliance on public slots. Upto 40days waiting time for a research slot in high-sec? If this is an isk printing machine, then the handle's turning really slowly. And tech2 BPO (done to death already) earn marginal returns.

These are irrelevant for reasons stated several times in this thread.

GetSirrus wrote:
barge buff

Everybody now flies a Mack. Interesting complaint. Where was this level of concern when everybody flew a hulk? (and the crowd is silent). Indeed lets widen the parameters on this. For some time the top three ships in Eve were Hulk, Drake and Hurricane. (maybe still are - CCP we need more stats). There was the occasional thread about "OP Drake" but it was never taken seriously. So, again not really an issue when one ship is the best to use. (until the missile nerf and following threadnaught) but everybody in a mack is definately imbalanced?!

and all the noise about AFK mining. It is a bannable offence or just a personal distaste? Is it is easy to bump such players out of strip mining range? Suicide gank and pod an AFK? And despite the buff, kill boards still fill with barge/exhumer deaths. Miners still don't tank, don't observe local or d-scan nor do they bother with alignment to warp. Not seeing a problem here which needs CCP intervention.

Also quite irrelevant to the thread.

GetSirrus wrote:
As for high sec industry, I figured out sometime ago how to really cripple it. And I am smugly amused that such an obvious solution hasn't been tried or even discovered by players who pride themselves on being complete bastards.

No you haven't. If you had you would have done so by now instead of trying to impress us with talk.
Come back when you have something to show for your boasting.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2156 - 2013-01-04 06:19:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
As for high sec industry, I figured out sometime ago how to really cripple it. And I am smugly amused that such an obvious solution hasn't been tried or even discovered by players who pride themselves on being complete bastards.

No you haven't. If you had you would have done so by now instead of trying to impress us with talk.
Come back when you have something to show for your boasting.

You don't believe the forums alt?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2157 - 2013-01-04 07:15:49 UTC
He is talking about rich null players purposely hogging up every assembly line with long orders and canceling. Allegedly you get your **** back, but the slot is still take for the length of time.

Saw someone bragging about it a week or so ago. Can anyone confirm this is possible?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2158 - 2013-01-04 07:40:47 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
He is talking about rich null players purposely hogging up every assembly line with long orders and canceling. Allegedly you get your **** back, but the slot is still take for the length of time.

Saw someone bragging about it a week or so ago. Can anyone confirm this is possible?

Oh, he was talking about that?
What incentive would we have to do that anyway? Highsec is where we build most of our stuff.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#2159 - 2013-01-04 08:16:55 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If all sov rules were to dissapear and all of null wat to become like NPC null, you can bet all SOV holder would be angry.

Technically the only reason I would be annoyed with that is the inevitable station ping pong which would ensue.


Being annoyed or angry is allright. The important point is how you deal with it. The forumis a proof that some people just can't deal with change.

Well, we did get sov mechanics because the station ping-pong situation of olde was annoying as ****. Not having prescriptive sov mechanics does have its perks since it means you can only hold as much space as you can actively defend, but I'm just not sure about bringing back station ping-pong.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#2160 - 2013-01-04 08:22:12 UTC
Garou Carew wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

I'm sorry, did you not understand what I said?
The CFC does not put up any of their space for rent. None of our corps would be looking for renters.


I understood what you said perfectly well, that doesn't stop them running scams and pogroms on Industrialists and Mining Corps and that is where the problem lays. Basically what we have is a group of entitled oxygen thieves that purport to represent the Null community but in reality only seek to further their own ambitions by whining in the forums as they seem to lack the intellect to achieve this through effective strategy and management of their corp.

Just like the concept "test the water with a t1 mining barge, just to see how things are" is a viable one, so is the concept of "checking the reputation of the people you're going to rent from".

Well, in a logical world where people make proper due diligence checks and don't jump all in on every bet they make, that is.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat