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Falcon's = Combat Killer

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OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#21 - 2012-12-15 12:35:26 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
During recent event CCP formed their blob of 70.

Do you really believe they are concerned about small-scale PvP all that much? Big smile I somehow doubt at the scale of 70 vs X mere Falcons are gamebreaking Big smile


Small scale PVP happens every day. Not everyone can sit at a computer for 4 hours waiting for the big battles that wets everyones lips.

You should be concerned with small-scale PVP since that is what drives everything. you can not simply rely on blobs for PVP.
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2012-12-15 12:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
OkaskiKali wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
[quote=OkaskiKali][quote=Amarra Mandalin][quote=OkaskiKali]Can we get past how it happens and discuss how falcons and BB and kitsune destroys engagements


How can you not jump into a bubble if you are jumping gates.

Everything about the falcon makes it overpowered. Cloak for 1, how easy it is for them to sit at range and to render someone completely defenseless. anything cruiser class and below once committed is dead.

Eve to me is a game where PVP is my end game. How can i satisfy my PVP if everytime i engage someone solo a falcon can come on grid and overpower any fight that is occurring.



I honestly couldn't and can't tell if you're a troll with an alt who wants to mainly complain about ECM.

Otherwise, you could do any of a number of things:

1) Fly somewhere else -- Falcons aren't everywhere.
2) PvP in wormholes
3) Fly a cloaky recon
4) Fly an interceptor
5) Use an alt to scout
6) Take someone else's advice ... there are more options.

ETA: Don't engage in bubble while flying solo with more than 1 in local. Burn out of the bubble or back to gate -- until you can ID the pilots/ships and fight on your terms.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-12-15 12:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
not these threads again.

let's take another swing at it.


warp jammers/scrammers = combat killers. I can't get out of an engagement with my ship and so I lose.
or
target painters = combat killers. It'll make me take more damage and die faster and so I lose.
or
energy neuts = combat killers. It'll kill my cap and I won't be able to do jack as long as I have cap-based modules and so I lose.
or
TD's = combat killers. It'll make me hit for **** and I won't be able to do enough damage and so I lose.
or
damps = combat killers . It'll make me unable to target stuff at longer ranges and so I won't be able to do jack and so I lose.

omfg, this means one thing only! EWAR IS BAD FOR PVP SO THEY ALL MUST BE NERFED TO HELL AND BACK/REMOVED FROM GAME.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#24 - 2012-12-15 12:43:01 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:

I am finding that Falcons are in my opinion coming close to being "battle killers"; its relative ease at how it can sit cloaked, and then uncloak to jam targets to me is what is painful; some of the lamest tactics are at play here. sabre on gate go to engage uncloak falcon and sit for 30 + seconds and not be able to defend yourself is quite honestly a game killer.


You have always the option to fit ECCM or use FOF missiles. ECCM will use up a module slot and you will miss something else which makes you vulnerable to some other tactics. It is a tradeoff like with everything in eve. There is no setup without counter.

I see your problem, but it's not the falcon or ecm.
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#25 - 2012-12-15 12:45:46 UTC
Came on here looking for a discussion and got greeted with the usually eve space mines, trolls, flamers
OkaskiKali
Aussie Carebear OverLords
#26 - 2012-12-15 12:46:15 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:

I am finding that Falcons are in my opinion coming close to being "battle killers"; its relative ease at how it can sit cloaked, and then uncloak to jam targets to me is what is painful; some of the lamest tactics are at play here. sabre on gate go to engage uncloak falcon and sit for 30 + seconds and not be able to defend yourself is quite honestly a game killer.


You have always the option to fit ECCM or use FOF missiles. ECCM will use up a module slot and you will miss something else which makes you vulnerable to some other tactics. It is a tradeoff like with everything in eve. There is no setup without counter.

I see your problem, but it's not the falcon or ecm.


not really since most of the time i use small ships
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#27 - 2012-12-15 12:53:15 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Karak Terrel wrote:
OkaskiKali wrote:

I am finding that Falcons are in my opinion coming close to being "battle killers"; its relative ease at how it can sit cloaked, and then uncloak to jam targets to me is what is painful; some of the lamest tactics are at play here. sabre on gate go to engage uncloak falcon and sit for 30 + seconds and not be able to defend yourself is quite honestly a game killer.


You have always the option to fit ECCM or use FOF missiles. ECCM will use up a module slot and you will miss something else which makes you vulnerable to some other tactics. It is a tradeoff like with everything in eve. There is no setup without counter.

I see your problem, but it's not the falcon or ecm.


not really since most of the time i use small ships


So because you use small ships you can't use FOF or ECCM or just run away because you are faster or use ECM yourself because you lock that ***** before he even realizes you are there?
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2012-12-15 13:04:35 UTC
OkaskiKali wrote:
Came on here looking for a discussion and got greeted with the usually eve space mines, trolls, flamers


You came here dismissing a class of ship/warfare that you're having problems with rather than asking for help directly. All things considered, you were treated rather fairly and have since been given some suggestions to start with. Discussion = two-way street.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-12-15 13:25:48 UTC
Amarra Mandalin wrote:


Otherwise, you could do any of a number of things:

1) Fly somewhere else
...
5) Use an alt to scout


Cut down the number for you because your proposed options are really:

1.) Do something else

or

2.) Buy another account and do something else.

Which options, while valid and probably quite effective, honestly don't address the situation. They assume it never happened.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#30 - 2012-12-15 13:27:30 UTC
The Falcon already got a huge nerf. Just train the new electronic skills and stop your damn whining.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2012-12-15 13:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Malphilos wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:


Otherwise, you could do any of a number of things:

1) Fly somewhere else
...
5) Use an alt to scout


Cut down the number for you because your proposed options are really:

1.) Do something else

or

2.) Buy another account and do something else.

Which options, while valid and probably quite effective, honestly don't address the situation. They assume it never happened.


Not at all Sir. You've really taken away the context of my post by rewriting it ...to include flying in places where solo PvP is more feasible. This is not static. Systems change.

I was solo roaming in 2010 and things are different now....logi wasn't even a big issue then, like today. Though it still required time and patience to find and select targets.

So we face present day threats and tackle them sensibly.

If someone flies solo and engages in a bubble -- that isn't really too effective, esp. if there is known ecm in the area or other pilots unaccounted for. This is not new.

Scouts/scouting has always been needed to minimize death. Fly w/o such at your own risk.

Also, you don't have to buy a second account. Albeit it is a bit of a pain. Another option is to join a corp or pair up with someone.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-12-15 13:40:44 UTC
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:


Otherwise, you could do any of a number of things:

1) Fly somewhere else
...
5) Use an alt to scout


Cut down the number for you because your proposed options are really:

1.) Do something else

or

2.) Buy another account and do something else.

Which options, while valid and probably quite effective, honestly don't address the situation. They assume it never happened.


Not at all Sir. You've really taken away the context of my post by rewriting it ...to include flying in places where solo PvP is more feasible (1). This is not static. Systems change.

I was solo roaming in 2010 and things are different now....logi wasn't even a big issue then.

So we face present day threats and tackle them sensibly.

If someone flies solo and engages in a bubble -- that isn't really too effective, esp. if there is known ecm in the area or other pilots unaccounted for. This is not new.

Scouts/scouting has always been needed to minimize death (2). Fly w/o such at your own risk.

Also, you don't have to buy a second account. Albeit it is a bit of a pain. Another option is to join a corp or pair up with someone.


(1) Do something else
(2) Buy another account and do something else.

Not sure how you think the context has changed.
Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC
#33 - 2012-12-15 13:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gibbo5771
Grimpak wrote:
not these threads again.

let's take another swing at it.


warp jammers/scrammers = combat killers. I can't get out of an engagement with my ship and so I lose.
or
target painters = combat killers. It'll make me take more damage and die faster and so I lose.
or
energy neuts = combat killers. It'll kill my cap and I won't be able to do jack as long as I have cap-based modules and so I lose.
or
TD's = combat killers. It'll make me hit for **** and I won't be able to do enough damage and so I lose.
or
damps = combat killers . It'll make me unable to target stuff at longer ranges and so I won't be able to do jack and so I lose.

omfg, this means one thing only! EWAR IS BAD FOR PVP SO THEY ALL MUST BE NERFED TO HELL AND BACK/REMOVED FROM GAME.


Warp "jammers/scrammers do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Target painters do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Neuts can be 100% countered with a cap booster

TD's can be countered with manual piloting and smart use of transversal

Damps can be countered by getting closer to the target

ECM can MAYBE be counter by ECCM, while everything else has a guranteed counter, ECM does not.

Webbed? Get out of web range or kill the webber, even better MWD away if possible. Or try and neut it off.
Scrammed? Use your own tackle to try and break the scram, neut or kill the scrammer. Or try and neut it off.
TD'd? Get closer if optimal scripted, if tracking becomes an issue manual pilot to try and increase damage. Or try and neut it off
Neuted? Use a cap booster with good timing to gain enough cap to keep guns/tank active. Fit a nos.
Damped? Get closer to the target if possible, if not kill other things near you and accept the death.
TP's? Move faster, neut it off or even better find a ship that actually fits a TP and dont engage it.
ECM? Dont engage with it on field, wont engage with it within 100km. Or burn away, the only ship class capable of burning out of its range within a respectable time frame is a frig, which btw from personal experience can be jammed right out to the Falcons max lock range. Which funny enough means it can just rewarp to the guy thats chasing you.

Anyone that really argues that ECM is fine, is either someone who flys with ECM or flies in a gang so large that you have an MWD and guns with every other slot empty and still not die.
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2012-12-15 13:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Malphilos wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
[quote=Malphilos][quote=Amarra Mandalin]


Also, you don't have to buy a second account. Albeit it is a bit of a pain. Another option is to join a corp or pair up with someone.


(1) Do something else
(2) Buy another account and do something else.

Not sure how you think the context has changed.


When you quit reposting the same gibberish with an alt, I might answer. It's pretty obvious to PvPers. [Edit] Thinking persons.
Gibbo5771
AQUILA INC
#35 - 2012-12-15 13:45:06 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
The Falcon already got a huge nerf. Just train the new electronic skills and stop your damn whining.


Huge nerf my arse, the Arazu/Lachesis got a huge nerf years ago to their ewar.

All they have done with the Falcon is decrease its range by 50-75% and then double its strenght, then lately tweaked it a bit.

End of the day, a Falcon slinging all 6 jammers onto a solo target = perma jam 100% even if no racial jammers are present.
Andracin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-12-15 13:46:06 UTC
Ive had some success using ecm drones against falcons. Burn out of the bubble, get within drone range and put drones on the falcon then deal with the pvp ship if you can, or alternatively use the drones to jam the pvp ship that probably has you scramed so you can gtfo. ecm is more annoying than anything since it can't actually put a dent in your ship. personally I hate scramblers and webifiers alot more. If your flying small ships falcons should be the least of your concerns...not every encounter has to end with you engaging something. If its just a sabre on grid, use your free cloak timer to check battleclinic and see if any of his kills have a falcon on them. That will give you a pretty good idea if you can safely engage him or not.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-12-15 13:55:45 UTC
Gibbo5771 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
not these threads again.

let's take another swing at it.


warp jammers/scrammers = combat killers. I can't get out of an engagement with my ship and so I lose.
or
target painters = combat killers. It'll make me take more damage and die faster and so I lose.
or
energy neuts = combat killers. It'll kill my cap and I won't be able to do jack as long as I have cap-based modules and so I lose.
or
TD's = combat killers. It'll make me hit for **** and I won't be able to do enough damage and so I lose.
or
damps = combat killers . It'll make me unable to target stuff at longer ranges and so I won't be able to do jack and so I lose.

omfg, this means one thing only! EWAR IS BAD FOR PVP SO THEY ALL MUST BE NERFED TO HELL AND BACK/REMOVED FROM GAME.


Warp "jammers/scrammers do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Target painters do not cease the use of your weaponry/offensive modules

Neuts can be 100% countered with a cap booster

TD's can be countered with manual piloting and smart use of transversal

Damps can be countered by getting closer to the target

ECM can MAYBE be counter by ECCM, while everything else has a guranteed counter, ECM does not.

Webbed? Get out of web range or kill the webber, even better MWD away if possible. Or try and neut it off.
Scrammed? Use your own tackle to try and break the scram, neut or kill the scrammer. Or try and neut it off.
TD'd? Get closer if optimal scripted, if tracking becomes an issue manual pilot to try and increase damage. Or try and neut it off
Neuted? Use a cap booster with good timing to gain enough cap to keep guns/tank active. Fit a nos.
Damped? Get closer to the target if possible, if not kill other things near you and accept the death.
TP's? Move faster, neut it off or even better find a ship that actually fits a TP and dont engage it.
ECM? Dont engage with it on field, wont engage with it within 100km. Or burn away, the only ship class capable of burning out of its range within a respectable time frame is a frig, which btw from personal experience can be jammed right out to the Falcons max lock range. Which funny enough means it can just rewarp to the guy thats chasing you.

Anyone that really argues that ECM is fine, is either someone who flys with ECM or flies in a gang so large that you have an MWD and guns with every other slot empty and still not die.

ECM'ed? move out of range. those things got a range nerf, and it's not like they have a huge life expectancy in a battlefield anwyays.

you lost to a gang with ECM? he was better prepared than you. just because you have MOAR WEAPONZ! doesn't mean you can win all day.

people brought ECM to counter your single solo-ship? well, that's called "risk aversion" and it's an innate human trait. you don't fight a losing battle unless you're backed to a corner, so why should I bring a knife into a fight? I'll bring a friggin' nuke and **** you up from orbit.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Amarra Mandalin
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2012-12-15 13:56:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Andracin wrote:
Ive had some success using ecm drones against falcons.


Is that drones with or without an Aeon? Blink

Quote:
The rest of it and "not every encounter has to end with you engaging something"


Well said.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#39 - 2012-12-15 14:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
OkaskiKali wrote:
You semi to have mis understood me.. you jump through a gate a sabre bubbles and when you have engaged the falcon jams you leaving you defenseless


What you dont understand is that eve is largely rock paper sicissors - if it wasnt a falcon it would be something else, webs, sensor damps, dps whatever -- the fight is laregly decided before you begin - ofc with a falcon it appears frustrating because you dont get the illusion of being able to fight the good fight - but it really doesnt matter - you jump into a fight without knowing if their is support you dont see on grid then you deserve to lose.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-12-15 14:10:00 UTC
OP, serious question for you 'cause I am curious.

If it wasn't a falcon that decloaked but, instead, a logistics ship or a neut boat who proceeded to assist the sabre would you be so mad? What if it had been a blaster naga? or an alpha strike tornado? Or, really, any other ship.

Next question, one on one, would you have been able to either a) defeat the falcon or b) retreat?

You are complaining about a two on one situation. It seems to me that you are complaining about being outnumbered and 'unfairly' killed but you are focusing that feeling on the falcon.