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{BLOG} Getting started as an Industrialist
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Kiger Wulf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-12-14 16:45:25 UTC
I've been playing EVE for a while, mostly mining. I have decided to start a new life as an Industrialist. I'm blogging my experience. I'd love some feedback and tips on being a better Industrial player.

www.wulfbrothers.blogspot.com
Hans Tesla
RigWerks Incorporated
#2 - 2012-12-14 19:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Tesla
In your calculation for producing the first batch of Hobgoblins, you list your material cost at 0. I would avoid this for two reasons:

1) With some products, it is quite possible that you could sell the materials required to produce them for far more than what they currently sell for on the market.

2) Many industrialists look down on the Minerals I Mine Are Free crowd because of the impact they have on the market. You should always factor in the value of the minerals you use to produce your goods in order to come up with an accurate cost valuation and resulting sale price point.

ETA: I see others pointed it out in their comments on the Blog page.

Head Rigger In Charge
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-12-14 23:34:20 UTC
Hans is correct.

You should always look up your mineral prices and compare what price you could have sold those minerals at to buy orders vs how much you can sell the finished product for.

No point in manufacturing an item if you're selling it for 10% then what you could have sold the raw materials for right?
Kiger Wulf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-12-15 06:19:43 UTC
Special thanks to everyone who read and/or commented today!

A new post is up!

www.wulfbrothers.blogspot.com
Kiger Wulf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-12-17 03:21:47 UTC
New post up today:

www.wulfbrothers.blogspot.com

Still getting my feet wet in this profession. I still appreciate tips and pointers. Thanks to everyone who's been reading!
leoplusma
Delfus Inc.
#6 - 2012-12-17 09:48:14 UTC
Kiger Wulf wrote:
I've been playing EVE for a while, mostly mining. I have decided to start a new life as an Industrialist. I'm blogging my experience. I'd love some feedback and tips on being a better Industrial player.

www.wulfbrothers.blogspot.com


a) there are no FREE minerals. if u mine them or not is irrelevant.

b) moving your manufactured products is also something you
need to take in mind. thats exactly why your buy-sell of minerals
on your latest blog post was a "waste of time and isk". you need
to be skilled very well to minimize the costs of the orders and then
do invest a lot of isk so in the end you have made some profit that
you can brag :)

c) make sure you download isk per hour software or something
equivalent like many spreadsheets that are everywhere.
most of the stuff in the market will result in ISK loss if u manufacture
them. so u always have to check what is profitable right now
and make sure you always take in mind the quantities that are
being sold or bought in a daily basis. you dont want to end up making
things that will be sold in a year or so.

and most important of all,
welcome to the manufacturers club of new eden lol

kisses

fly strange

leo
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-12-17 13:39:31 UTC
leoplusma wrote:
fly strange


Heh. I am so going to steal that.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Ginger Barbarella
#8 - 2012-12-17 15:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
1) Don't sell below market VALUE. Don't confuse COST with VALUE (I'm looking at you, S&I)
2) Value your time as YOU see fit, not what the goosesteppers here insist you value it at.
3) Making 10 isk per unit more for hauling your stuff 20 jumps to an optimal market is stupid (ie, "opportunity cost" crowd)

Your wallet is what matters. If it goes up consistently you're not doing it wrong, free minerals or not.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Kiger Wulf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-12-18 00:03:56 UTC
Thanks everyone, for reading! I genuinely appreciate all the comments on what I'm doing so far.

I've taken Economics, so I completely understand the idea of opportunity cost. I understand why I need to value my TIME. However, I still don't understand why people are so against calling minerals "free." If they don't cost me anything, then, yes I could be shorting myself the price of just selling the minerals, but I also am doing what I want, which is to manufacture products to sell on the market. The minerals, then, are free, in that they don't have an ISK cost attached to them when I mine myself.

If I'm going to do that, I need to include all mining costs on my calculations at the end of the month (lasers, etc), but the minerals are still free as it relates to setting up the cost of my products.

Just my two cents. I like the idea of buying minerals better than I like the idea of mining them. However, I spend a lot of time searching for the best price, which means flying around the region to get all the mats I need, which, in turn takes up a lot of my time. There's an opportunity cost here, as well. If I were mining just what I need, it wouldn't take me very long (much less time than flying all over Tash-Murkon) and it wouldn't cost me any ISK to do it. I could even sell the extra materials and make a profit.

This is, naturally, an unsustainable business model, because it won't work once I'm making more and more things, but it surely works for now for the level of manufacturing that I'm doing.

Just a few of my thoughts pertaining to what seems to be a constant debate in these parts.

Again, thanks everyone for reading and for your feedback. It's surely appreciated!
Kiger Wulf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-12-18 00:30:29 UTC
I've posted a brief update. I'll probably post a much more substantial update tonight or tomorrow.

www.wulfbrothers.blogspot.com
Jake Centauri
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-12-18 04:19:06 UTC
Kiger Wulf wrote:
Thanks everyone, for reading! I genuinely appreciate all the comments on what I'm doing so far.

I've taken Economics, so I completely understand the idea of opportunity cost. I understand why I need to value my TIME. However, I still don't understand why people are so against calling minerals "free." !


People tend look at cash flow first and opportunity costs second. If I can manufacture a item that sells for 10m and requires only an additional 1m investment in materials (since I already mined the required ore), then I erroneously see a 10m payout for a 1m investment. The ore becomes an accounting scratch. The savvy industrialist doesn't make this mistake.
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-12-18 06:39:12 UTC
Well since you mine "for the corp" the corp makes isk with "free" minerals. But if you count the minerals free, you are actually generating most of your profits from the mining, and not actually manufacturing, your "manufacturing division" is just adding a bit of value to your "mining divisions" work.
leoplusma
Delfus Inc.
#13 - 2012-12-18 10:29:12 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
leoplusma wrote:
fly strange


Heh. I am so going to steal that.


feel free :)))
Kiger Wulf
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-12-18 14:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiger Wulf
Termy Rockling wrote:
Well since you mine "for the corp" the corp makes isk with "free" minerals. But if you count the minerals free, you are actually generating most of your profits from the mining, and not actually manufacturing, your "manufacturing division" is just adding a bit of value to your "mining divisions" work.


Isn't a simple fix here to set up a pay structure for the corp? Especially since it's mainly just me doing all the work, if I set up an actual salary system, then I'm no longer working for free for the corp, it's merely "part of the job."

Now, for me, the issue is that I don't want to be doing this if/when I start manufacturing larger jobs that require tons more materials. Mining for all that is the pits. However, mining for the Isogen that 2,000 drones will need takes me about 6 minutes, not to mention I can also get the Mexallon in those 6 minutes and I don't have to take a single cent out of my wallet. They aren't "free," by any means. I paid for the Mackinaw. I paid for the Modulated Strip Miner II's. I paid for the Kernite Crystals. And, of course, I pay with my time. But those are all old purchases, and my time... Quite frankly, I don't have a problem mining. Because I can even sell the excess materials I mined and make a little bit of ISK, as well as have procured all the minerals I needed for the manufacturing project. It's a win-win for me, personally.

I'm going to keep working on the thought process here. But, when I figure in material cost on materials that I mined, I'm going to continue to use "0." Because it represents a true ISK cost of what I'm making, even if it doesn't represent the time cost.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-12-18 14:42:50 UTC
Kiger Wulf wrote:
I'm going to keep working on the thought process here. But, when I figure in material cost on materials that I mined, I'm going to continue to use "0." Because it represents a true ISK cost of what I'm making, even if it doesn't represent the time cost.


You are thinking to complicated. Forget all this talk about value of time or value vs worth.

It boils down to this: At some point, you have a certain amount of minerals sitting in your station. You could sell those for XXX ISK. You could also manufacture something from it and sell that for YYY ISK. If XXX is more than YYY, you are doing it wrong.

Some guy is moving from thread to thread here, claiming that you are doing everythin right as long as your wallet moves up. He's wrong. If you mine minerals that could be sold for 50mill, but then manufacture something that only sells for 40mill, you are losing money on your manufacturing, even if your wallet just increased by 40mill. In that case, the only sensible thing to do is producing something different that sells for more than the minerals would or just sell the minerals.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-12-18 14:43:49 UTC
Kiger Wulf wrote:

I've taken Economics, so I completely understand the idea of opportunity cost. I understand why I need to value my TIME. However, I still don't understand why people are so against calling minerals "free." If they don't cost me anything, then, yes I could be shorting myself the price of just selling the minerals, but I also am doing what I want, which is to manufacture products to sell on the market. The minerals, then, are free, in that they don't have an ISK cost attached to them when I mine myself.


You claim to have taken economics and don't get this?

Maybe this is a problem with the anti MIMAF crowd. The issue here is that you are considering the minerals you mine to be free, in terms of what you had to pay. In that aspect yes those minerals were "free" (you did not spend any direct isk to get them). This is excluding your time opportunity cost.

As an aside the time opportunity cost in a game is subject to a lot of pitfalls as well. EVE isn't a job, so to say you missed an opportunity by mining instead of X is hard to gauge if you are playing EVE to have fun rather than just isk/hr.

Anyhow back on topic. The problem the MIMAF crowd has, including you is that you are in fact saying the minerals you mine have no VALUE. And this is patently false. They may be "free" in terms of you not having to spend isk to get them, but they have an innate VALUE, which is based on what you could sell them for on the market. This VALUE should be a part of your cost calculations, regardless of how you acquired those minerals.

And to the anti MIMAF crowd, maybe you should talk more about mineral value than "free". I know its a minor distinction, but it may help explain the difference to people better.
Shriek Harkone
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-12-18 14:44:04 UTC
Totally keeping my eye on the blog, since we're both in the same boat :).
leoplusma
Delfus Inc.
#18 - 2012-12-18 15:00:14 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
It boils down to this: At some point, you have a certain amount of minerals sitting in your station. You could sell those for XXX ISK. You could also manufacture something from it and sell that for YYY ISK. If XXX is more than YYY, you are doing it wrong.

Some guy is moving from thread to thread here, claiming that you are doing everythin right as long as your wallet moves up. He's wrong. If you mine minerals that could be sold for 50mill, but then manufacture something that only sells for 40mill, you are losing money on your manufacturing, even if your wallet just increased by 40mill. In that case, the only sensible thing to do is producing something different that sells for more than the minerals would or just sell the minerals.


THIS ^^

Beckie, i think u described it exactly as it is
(if only my english was better)

kisses / fly strange

leo
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-12-18 15:07:16 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Kiger Wulf wrote:

I've taken Economics, so I completely understand the idea of opportunity cost. I understand why I need to value my TIME. However, I still don't understand why people are so against calling minerals "free." If they don't cost me anything, then, yes I could be shorting myself the price of just selling the minerals, but I also am doing what I want, which is to manufacture products to sell on the market. The minerals, then, are free, in that they don't have an ISK cost attached to them when I mine myself.


You claim to have taken economics and don't get this?

Maybe this is a problem with the anti MIMAF crowd. The issue here is that you are considering the minerals you mine to be free, in terms of what you had to pay. In that aspect yes those minerals were "free" (you did not spend any direct isk to get them). This is excluding your time opportunity cost.

As an aside the time opportunity cost in a game is subject to a lot of pitfalls as well. EVE isn't a job, so to say you missed an opportunity by mining instead of X is hard to gauge if you are playing EVE to have fun rather than just isk/hr.

Anyhow back on topic. The problem the MIMAF crowd has, including you is that you are in fact saying the minerals you mine have no VALUE. And this is patently false. They may be "free" in terms of you not having to spend isk to get them, but they have an innate VALUE, which is based on what you could sell them for on the market. This VALUE should be a part of your cost calculations, regardless of how you acquired those minerals.

And to the anti MIMAF crowd, maybe you should talk more about mineral value than "free". I know its a minor distinction, but it may help explain the difference to people better.



Like i said, way too complicated thinking for a thing that is really really simple.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#20 - 2012-12-18 16:51:35 UTC
Interesting thread, you got the spirit to play the game and do something your way. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as you realize you might be losing isk from manufacturing.

You could be earning more just selling the minerals!
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