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making it where scams are not one sided
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irish84
The Bannermen
The Initiative.
#1 - 2012-12-14 07:28:46 UTC
My idea is that instead of the GM just saying to the people who get scammed or mistakenly buy something they shouldnt have, they should implement a way to find out who scammed you. I dont just mean the one account that did it but have a way to find out known associates, where they transfer the isk too from that account, other accounts the player may have, and so on. Of course making it to where privacy is still upheld in the real life side of things, but there has to be a way to where the people who got scammed can get pay back. Whether it cost isk to have a agent investigator find the information or police, there must be a way to balance the issue out. Right now it is completely one sided and frustrating to the people who get scammed, regardless of how stupid they may seem by falling for it. anyways please add some constructive ideas and hopefully ccp will see this.
Kitt JT
True North.
#2 - 2012-12-14 08:17:49 UTC
How much did you lose?
M Lamia
All Web Investigations
#3 - 2012-12-14 09:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: M Lamia
You know the character that did it, you know what corp he's in, deal with it.

Wanting to know the alt accounts/characters of players is a disgustingly idiotic idea.

Why not invest the time you spent making this thread into educating yourself so you don't fall for scams like a dumbdumb next time
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#4 - 2012-12-14 09:45:18 UTC
M Lamia wrote:
Wanting to know the alt accounts/characters of players is a disgustingly idiotic idea.


I don't think wanting that is disgusting at all. Having a GM (or in-game mechanic) just out right tell you that just because you want it, now THAT is disgusting.

On the other hand if you can use in-game information sources and good old spying/social engineering to fish out that information, good for you.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#5 - 2012-12-14 11:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Aptenodytes
Whatever tools you implement, there will be ways around it. For example lets say Alt A scams Guy B out of 700 mil and Guy C out of 600 mil. He knows that using your proposed tools, if he transferred 1.3 bil to Main D, then Guy A and Guy B could go to their agent (or whatever) and find him. So what does he do to get around that? He buys a Machariel, and station trades it to Main D, who sells it.

So now I hear you say that you want your agent to be able to track station trades too. Well then Alt A flies to a safe spot, ejects in space, Main D boards it, and sells it.

So now I hear you say that you want your agent to be able to track ship ejects and who boards them. Well instead of buying a Machariel, Main D lists 1 unit of trit for 1.3 bil and Alt A buys it.

Alternatively Alt A simply uses a middle man to mule the money. You can trace money transfers from Alt A to Alt E because Alt A scammed you, but you can't trace them from Alt E to Main D.

Get the point? No matter what tools you put in to trace assets, there will always be ways around it. Also who is to say what is and is not a scam, to enable these features? If it is to be an automated process then there needs to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere. Is paying 200% over the odds for something a scam? Sometimes I pay 200% over the odds if I need something quickly. And how do you define a margin trading scam, a contract scam, etc? If it requires manual intervention then it's an even worse idea, waste of GM's valuable time who should be helping out people who are genuinely in trouble.
Riker Atros
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-12-14 11:09:16 UTC
M Lamia wrote:
You know the character that did it, you know what corp he's in, deal with it.

Wanting to know the alt accounts/characters of players is a disgustingly idiotic idea.

Why not invest the time you spent making this thread into educating yourself so you don't fall for scams like a dumbdumb next time



you know, cus people don't ever make an lt just for scamming, who would be in an npc corp, or a bs made corp., the bounty system for that is nonesence,

I can only say that scammers would be the ones who would not agree with this, as you want to hide behind your pretty little alts


not saying YOU are a scammer, but you were disgustingly APALLED at the idea.

BUT that's what eve api is for, BUT they need to have made their api key with Account set as all characters, and you would need to get the api from them somehow, so good luck with that lol

but you can do some research into it, and still beable to get that info out of them or from other means, that is after all what my background check service is for lol

but that's in another thread, not really trying to sell you anything lol
Aptenodytes
Reckless Abandon
#7 - 2012-12-14 11:13:25 UTC
Riker Atros wrote:
I can only say that scammers would be the ones who would not agree with this, as you want to hide behind your pretty little alts


Do you know how stupid that sounds? It's like saying anyone who doesn't agree with a mandatory national DNA, fingerprint and retina scan database, is a criminal.
M Lamia
All Web Investigations
#8 - 2012-12-14 11:47:32 UTC
Riker Atros wrote:
M Lamia wrote:
You know the character that did it, you know what corp he's in, deal with it.

Wanting to know the alt accounts/characters of players is a disgustingly idiotic idea.

Why not invest the time you spent making this thread into educating yourself so you don't fall for scams like a dumbdumb next time



you know, cus people don't ever make an lt just for scamming, who would be in an npc corp, or a bs made corp., the bounty system for that is nonesence,

I can only say that scammers would be the ones who would not agree with this, as you want to hide behind your pretty little alts


not saying YOU are a scammer, but you were disgustingly APALLED at the idea.

BUT that's what eve api is for, BUT they need to have made their api key with Account set as all characters, and you would need to get the api from them somehow, so good luck with that lol

but you can do some research into it, and still beable to get that info out of them or from other means, that is after all what my background check service is for lol

but that's in another thread, not really trying to sell you anything lol


The API is not for you to be able to look up other accounts/characters of players who abused you. And as the guy further up stated, theres a million easy ways around these ideas that couldn't be fixed or tracked realistically
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#9 - 2012-12-14 12:10:29 UTC
By very definition, scams have to be two-sided.
You beat the scammer by not falling for his obvious and easily avoidable tricks.

Any system that lets you track how characters are connected will be abused to hell and back. No thanks.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#10 - 2012-12-14 12:37:24 UTC
The problem really comes up to ALTS because the consequences are close to zero.
No reputation loss for the player that matters - because few people know who is really behind.
And alts don't have to login every day so they can in reality escape the world if they dont want to be online.

But hey - this is Eve so wake up and smell the scams... Just be intelligent enough to avoid them ;-)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#11 - 2012-12-14 17:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Tippia wrote:
By very definition, scams have to be two-sided.
You beat the scammer by not falling for his obvious and easily avoidable tricks.

Any system that lets you track how characters are connected will be abused to hell and back. No thanks.


I'm torn:

On one hand, creating an ingame system that lets you track the flow of isk between characters I think opens up an entirely new and unique opportunity for ingame espionage, retribution, and the like...

On the other hand, ensuring it isn't overpowered and obnoxiously abuse-able also seem rather difficult.

Imagine if we had Financial Analyst Agents (like Locator Agents), that you pay them a fee, give a character, corporation, or Alliance name, and they provide you with the top 5 isk transfers that the entity performed in the last week or two. Included are who, when, and how much...

You could also have Market Analysis Agents, that, pay them a fee, give a character, corp, or Alliance Name, and they provide you with the top 5 market transactions (buy orders, sell orders, and contracts) that entity controls in the last week or two. Included are contract / item details and where.

Example: I run a Financial Analysis on the Goon's Moon Holding Corp:

It tells me 2b was transferred from the Corp Wallet to the Mitanni on date xx-yy-zzzz
It tells me 1.5b was transferred to the Corp Wallet from "Tech Selling Corp" on xx-yy-zzzz.

etc...

Example: I run a Market Analysis Agent on "Tech Selling Corp"
It tells me "Tech Selling Corp" accepted a contract for Tech moon goo from "Goon's Moon Holding Corp" at Station XX-YYY for 5b isk. And links the finished contract.
It tells me "tech Selling Corp" is has a 50b isk sell order for xxxxxx units of Technitium at Jita IV - IV.
It tells me "tech Selling corp" has a 20b isk buy order for xxxxx units of "Exotic Dancers" at Dodixie III-II.

Top orders are determined by isk movement... So a contract without isk traded is off the radar... and you can hide large transfers by breaking it into smaller transfers.

This allows you to investigate a company, and perhaps determine their delivery schedule, activities, etc... It allows you to seek retribution for perceived wrongs, and I'm really trying to see how this would be bad for the game...
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-12-14 17:53:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Tippia wrote:
By very definition, scams have to be two-sided.
You beat the scammer by not falling for his obvious and easily avoidable tricks.

Any system that lets you track how characters are connected will be abused to hell and back. No thanks.


I'm torn:

On one hand, creating an ingame system that lets you track the flow of isk between characters I think opens up an entirely new and unique opportunity for ingame espionage, retribution, and the like...

On the other hand, ensuring it isn't overpowered and obnoxiously abuse-able also seem rather difficult.

Imagine if we had Financial Analyst Agents (like Locator Agents), that you pay them a fee, give a character, corporation, or Alliance name, and they provide you with the top 5 isk transfers that the entity performed in the last week or two. Included are who, when, and how much...

You could also have Market Analysis Agents, that, pay them a fee, give a character, corp, or Alliance Name, and they provide you with the top 5 market transactions (buy orders, sell orders, and contracts) that entity controls in the last week or two. Included are contract / item details and where.

Example: I run a Financial Analysis on the Goon's Moon Holding Corp:

It tells me 2b was transferred from the Corp Wallet to the Mitanni on date xx-yy-zzzz
It tells me 1.5b was transferred to the Corp Wallet from "Tech Selling Corp" on xx-yy-zzzz.

etc...

Example: I run a Market Analysis Agent on "Tech Selling Corp"
It tells me "Tech Selling Corp" accepted a contract for Tech moon goo from "Goon's Moon Holding Corp" at Station XX-YYY for 5b isk. And links the finished contract.
It tells me "tech Selling Corp" is has a 50b isk sell order for xxxxxx units of Technitium at Jita IV - IV.
It tells me "tech Selling corp" has a 20b isk buy order for xxxxx units of "Exotic Dancers" at Dodixie III-II.

Top orders are determined by isk movement... So a contract without isk traded is off the radar... and you can hide large transfers by breaking it into smaller transfers.

This allows you to investigate a company, and perhaps determine their delivery schedule, activities, etc... It allows you to seek retribution for perceived wrongs, and I'm really trying to see how this would be bad for the game...

Yeah a way to track isk would be kinda cool and possibly a good game addition (for the reasons you stated, not the OP's), but you did not address the ideas mentioned earlier in the thread: like buying a ship, ejecting in space, and then boarding it with an alt, etc. (or using bounties to launder isk, blah blah)

Seems like anybody who really had a good reason to hide their identity would just use methods like that.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#13 - 2012-12-14 18:14:39 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Tippia wrote:
By very definition, scams have to be two-sided.
You beat the scammer by not falling for his obvious and easily avoidable tricks.

Any system that lets you track how characters are connected will be abused to hell and back. No thanks.


I'm torn:

On one hand, creating an ingame system that lets you track the flow of isk between characters I think opens up an entirely new and unique opportunity for ingame espionage, retribution, and the like...

On the other hand, ensuring it isn't overpowered and obnoxiously abuse-able also seem rather difficult.

Imagine if we had Financial Analyst Agents (like Locator Agents), that you pay them a fee, give a character, corporation, or Alliance name, and they provide you with the top 5 isk transfers that the entity performed in the last week or two. Included are who, when, and how much...

You could also have Market Analysis Agents, that, pay them a fee, give a character, corp, or Alliance Name, and they provide you with the top 5 market transactions (buy orders, sell orders, and contracts) that entity controls in the last week or two. Included are contract / item details and where.

Example: I run a Financial Analysis on the Goon's Moon Holding Corp:

It tells me 2b was transferred from the Corp Wallet to the Mitanni on date xx-yy-zzzz
It tells me 1.5b was transferred to the Corp Wallet from "Tech Selling Corp" on xx-yy-zzzz.

etc...

Example: I run a Market Analysis Agent on "Tech Selling Corp"
It tells me "Tech Selling Corp" accepted a contract for Tech moon goo from "Goon's Moon Holding Corp" at Station XX-YYY for 5b isk. And links the finished contract.
It tells me "tech Selling Corp" is has a 50b isk sell order for xxxxxx units of Technitium at Jita IV - IV.
It tells me "tech Selling corp" has a 20b isk buy order for xxxxx units of "Exotic Dancers" at Dodixie III-II.

Top orders are determined by isk movement... So a contract without isk traded is off the radar... and you can hide large transfers by breaking it into smaller transfers.

This allows you to investigate a company, and perhaps determine their delivery schedule, activities, etc... It allows you to seek retribution for perceived wrongs, and I'm really trying to see how this would be bad for the game...

Yeah a way to track isk would be kinda cool and possibly a good game addition (for the reasons you stated, not the OP's), but you did not address the ideas mentioned earlier in the thread: like buying a ship, ejecting in space, and then boarding it with an alt, etc. (or using bounties to launder isk, blah blah)

Seems like anybody who really had a good reason to hide their identity would just use methods like that.


There are several ways to launder isk.... and I don't want to remove or stop that.... The tools I suggested wouldn't guarantee you the ability to find out where assets travel, and I certainly don't support a foolproof method to do so.

Perhaps I should refine my idea and post it in a new thread....