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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2012-12-14 22:37:34 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

That said, I feel I have given an argument that justifies the "evolutionary selectionism" approach - namely that it demonstrably works and has done so for hundreds, thousands, most likely even millions and billions of years stretching back into the evolutionary history of our species.


On which criterias does it work according to you, if I may ask ?

And are you refering to a case of "If it is not broken, do not fix it ?"
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#62 - 2012-12-15 01:38:51 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
There are certainly universals in human behaviour and ideals, no question of the fact. Loyalty to kin, distinction of social groups, individual subjective bias; these are in every human culture. I don't think anyone rejects these things.


Except, the Caldari do not see it as fellow humans, only fellow Caldari, which alludes to the original post. That in itself is a great tragedy. They're not the only perpretrators of that, granted, but such a backwards mindset must be weeded out.


What, precisely, do we owe to those who are nothing to us - save for those reciprocal arrangements of basic decency that are common to any civilisation worthy of the name? Honestly, Inhonores, we have had this fight before. You have the right to run your Federation any way that you care to do so. We won't stand in your way, except to point out that your right to swing your fist without consequence ends at our noses.

All we expect, in return, is that you extend to us the same courtesy. This is the State. We follow the Caldari Way here. Anyone who wishes to not follow The Way is free to leave the State. Those disconnected from Society who are that way by no fault of their own deserve our support, in fact I'll be contacting Hakatain-haan to get information on the charities he uses for that purpose. Those who have chosen to deviate from norms have done so in full cognizance of the consequences for doing so - to them I simply say that it isn't too late to come back. It's never too late to come back, unless your actions place you beyond the pale.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-12-15 02:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Lyn Farel wrote:
Stitcher wrote:

That said, I feel I have given an argument that justifies the "evolutionary selectionism" approach - namely that it demonstrably works and has done so for hundreds, thousands, most likely even millions and billions of years stretching back into the evolutionary history of our species.


On which criterias does it work according to you, if I may ask ?

And are you refering to a case of "If it is not broken, do not fix it ?"


Well, from our humble origins as a cloudy broth of interesting chemicals somewhere on an obscure backwater in a distant, nondescript part of the universe, it got us to where we are today; conquerors of death, astride the heavens, warring betwixt the stars, as gods are we et cetera and so forth.

It's kind of hard to argue with those results, really.

Also, Tuulinen-haan, while I know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, that really is unnerving.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#64 - 2012-12-15 03:06:27 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Stitcher wrote:

That said, I feel I have given an argument that justifies the "evolutionary selectionism" approach - namely that it demonstrably works and has done so for hundreds, thousands, most likely even millions and billions of years stretching back into the evolutionary history of our species.


On which criterias does it work according to you, if I may ask ?

And are you refering to a case of "If it is not broken, do not fix it ?"


Well, from our humble origins as a cloudy broth of interesting chemicals somewhere on an obscure backwater in a distant, nondescript part of the universe, it got us to where we are today; conquerors of death, astride the heavens, warring betwixt the stars, as gods are we et cetera and so forth.

It's kind of hard to argue with those results, really.

Also, Tuulinen-haan, while I know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, that really is unnerving.


Oh Ancestors... Did this image update already? You really weren't meant to see this, it was a condition for fulfilling a wager.

Apparently I won.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#65 - 2012-12-15 03:39:42 UTC
Could I get a picture of the two of you standing together? :)
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-12-15 04:40:53 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
There are certainly universals in human behaviour and ideals, no question of the fact. Loyalty to kin, distinction of social groups, individual subjective bias; these are in every human culture. I don't think anyone rejects these things.


Except, the Caldari do not see it as fellow humans, only fellow Caldari, which alludes to the original post. That in itself is a great tragedy. They're not the only perpretrators of that, granted, but such a backwards mindset must be weeded out.

Unfortunately, simply not all of humans are fellow.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2012-12-15 16:50:54 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
We won't stand in your way, except to point out that your right to swing your fist without consequence ends at our noses.


Was the illegal invasion of Caldari Prime part of that as well ?

Stitcher wrote:

Well, from our humble origins as a cloudy broth of interesting chemicals somewhere on an obscure backwater in a distant, nondescript part of the universe, it got us to where we are today; conquerors of death, astride the heavens, warring betwixt the stars, as gods are we et cetera and so forth.

It's kind of hard to argue with those results, really.


That was only a question of curiosity, the intention was not to argue the results of where the species stands as of now.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#68 - 2012-12-15 17:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Diana Kim wrote:
Unfortunately, simply not all of humans are fellow.

Some day Diana, you may find your pod damaged and shipwrecked on a remote yet fertile planet, with only a Gallente or Minmatar of whatever gender you prefer as company. You will also find your comms equipment broken beyond repair.

On that day Diana, you will embrace your inner bonobo.

You could get lucky and have it be me. If so, I hope to discover that I am a lucky bastard as well. As we vigorously ignore dehydration enraptured in primal reproductive activity.Blink

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-12-15 19:44:56 UTC
It's times like these that I wish my digestive system hadn't seen days of disuse, so that I could hurl.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#70 - 2012-12-15 20:53:46 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
We won't stand in your way, except to point out that your right to swing your fist without consequence ends at our noses.


Was the illegal invasion of Caldari Prime part of that as well ?


Really? You'll accuse us of illegally invading our own homeworld, ignoring the fact that you illegally blockaded, bombarded and then seized it in the first place?

Amazing.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#71 - 2012-12-16 00:53:53 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


Really? You'll accuse us of illegally invading our own homeworld, ignoring the fact that you illegally blockaded, bombarded and then seized it in the first place?

Amazing.


I accuse the Caldari State of illegal war activities under CONCORD laws, as CONCORD signatories. Unlike the Elders and the Thukker forces - who never signed the treaty - the Caldari State directly violated that agreement.

Also, I am definitly no part of the people who blockaded, bombarded, and seized the Caldari homeworld...
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#72 - 2012-12-16 04:23:28 UTC
My apologies Miss Farel, I'm just not used to someone without an agenda having so forceful an opinion on the matter.

I'll simply say that Shakor was involved with the breach of Amarr space by the Thukkers and the Elders - there's been no effort to bring HIM to justice for breaking CONCORD laws. Also the remains of the retreating Elder fleet somehow managed to pass without let or hindrance through Republic space.

In addition, the Caldari have never been shy about telling the Federation that the issue of Homeworld was not resolved.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-12-16 12:17:25 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


I accuse the Caldari State of illegal war activities under CONCORD laws, as CONCORD signatories. Unlike the Elders and the Thukker forces - who never signed the treaty - the Caldari State directly violated that agreement.

Also, I am definitly no part of the people who blockaded, bombarded, and seized the Caldari homeworld...

Do tell me, where was CONCORD when State diplomats tried to convince Federal diplomats to return the planet? Why CONCORD didn't act against thieves, who managed to steal the whole planet? This is a question of national security and national pride. Treaties are made to realize national interests. But when they can't handle this purpose, they are discarded.

What happened was a major reminder to CONCORD to actually start doing its job. And I hope CONCORD has learned the lesson.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#74 - 2012-12-16 14:50:12 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
My apologies Miss Farel, I'm just not used to someone without an agenda having so forceful an opinion on the matter.

I'll simply say that Shakor was involved with the breach of Amarr space by the Thukkers and the Elders - there's been no effort to bring HIM to justice for breaking CONCORD laws. Also the remains of the retreating Elder fleet somehow managed to pass without let or hindrance through Republic space.

In addition, the Caldari have never been shy about telling the Federation that the issue of Homeworld was not resolved.


Was I forceful ? My apologies then, it was not really intended. But usually I tend to put a much higher priority on interstellar entities like CONCORD than the nations below, which may explain why.

But other than that, it is a matter of trust, mostly. If the State can so easily break the vows it took by signing the Yulai convention, what does it make them to the eyes of the rest of the cluster, the gallente excepted ? How is that seen by the Amarr Empire itself when the CONCORD foundation was initiated and leaded by Heideran ?

That is not exactly the most clever political move in terms of image and relations.

Diana Kim wrote:

Do tell me, where was CONCORD when State diplomats tried to convince Federal diplomats to return the planet? Why CONCORD didn't act against thieves, who managed to steal the whole planet? This is a question of national security and national pride. Treaties are made to realize national interests. But when they can't handle this purpose, they are discarded.

What happened was a major reminder to CONCORD to actually start doing its job. And I hope CONCORD has learned the lesson.


CONCORD are no Caldari puppets.

Also, I think that your opinion on the matter illustrates quite well what I said above.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2012-12-22 01:23:22 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
How is that seen by the Amarr Empire itself when the CONCORD foundation was initiated and leaded by Heideran ?


As far as I'm aware CONCORD was initiated by Aidonis Elabon.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#76 - 2012-12-22 03:34:47 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

But other than that, it is a matter of trust, mostly. If the State can so easily break the vows it took by signing the Yulai convention, what does it make them to the eyes of the rest of the cluster, the gallente excepted ? How is that seen by the Amarr Empire itself when the CONCORD foundation was initiated and leaded by Heideran ?

That is not exactly the most clever political move in terms of image and relations.


You're assuming that the State cares more about how the other nations see it than it does about having Homeworld back. It doesn't. We don't.

I'll accept that there might be PR fallout but, on the face of it, don't you see that expecting anything else was foolish?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2012-12-22 10:49:26 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
How is that seen by the Amarr Empire itself when the CONCORD foundation was initiated and leaded by Heideran ?


As far as I'm aware CONCORD was initiated by Aidonis Elabon.


Technically yes.

My apologies since I shoujld have included him since both of them worked together for it to happen, but I thought better not to : Aidonis had nothing to do with my question.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

But other than that, it is a matter of trust, mostly. If the State can so easily break the vows it took by signing the Yulai convention, what does it make them to the eyes of the rest of the cluster, the gallente excepted ? How is that seen by the Amarr Empire itself when the CONCORD foundation was initiated and leaded by Heideran ?

That is not exactly the most clever political move in terms of image and relations.


You're assuming that the State cares more about how the other nations see it than it does about having Homeworld back. It doesn't. We don't.

I'll accept that there might be PR fallout but, on the face of it, don't you see that expecting anything else was foolish?


I am not assuming it does. It is just unfortunate, and it makes it dangerous. When then I hear a lot of Caldari complaining about the Amarr Reclaiming threat, I can't help but find that a little hypocritical.

Please do not take it as an attack on your person, you may not complain that way about the Amarr, but a lot do. Probably a trend in the capsuleer community though.