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Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

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Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-12-11 14:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Silath Slyver Silverpine
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Changes to high sec impact null.

Some of you need to stop being so ignorant as to think that CCP can just change things in high sec and it only effect high sec. High sec doesn't exist on it's own server, indipendant of every other area of the game world. It's all EVE, and it's all on TQ.

Seems a lot of you can't get your heads around this, or willfully ignore that very simple concept.


You keep saying this, without providing any proof or examples.

Thankfully some people earlier have proposed some theories that seem valid (For example, that null simply doesn't have the manufacturing capability to keep up with itself, and that the average null player is reliant on highsec profits to support themself.)
I've replied multiple times that I fully understand that EVE is a single shard MMO. I just think that the impact of highsec market activity is negligible on nullsec operations, due to the ability of null alliances to rake in so much ISK as to make highsec prices almost meaningless, and their ability to manufacture their own goods.

Feel free to throw around the accusation that we're all "Just being ignorant!", but if you refuse to validate your claims I'm just going to start ignoring them.

So far it seems like the issue really boils down to players doing two things
1) Demanding that the game be the way they want it to be, regardless of anyone else.
2) Misdirecting their anger/frustration at, and wrongly attributing problems to, other players instead of towards CCP.

Not sure there's much else to be said, but I suppose I'll continue to watch this in case anything interesting pops up. Thank you to those who provided thought-out and intelligent replies.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-12-11 14:39:06 UTC
Without high sec EVE would still be EVE. Without null sec (or low!) it would be WoW in space.


There's a few answers:

Materials and Industry - Null sec is affected by what people do in high sec with materials and industry.

Markets - Leading from that point is markets, the market is player driven so high sec affects that.

ISK - Income in null is meant to reward for the risk pay off but sadly high sec pays out pretty well too with no risk (there is no risk in high sec unless you're an AFK autopilot/miner). Guys in null who fight for space resent that and the fact that many null sec residents have high sec alts to make ISK reinforces this point of view.

High sec care bears don't get it - Allot of guys in null say that high sec guys just don't get EVE. They don't get the player driven economy or the fact EVE is about the meta game, violence, greifing and the fact you can be the bad guy and its within the rules which no other MMO allows you to do. I think its the fact that running endless level 4 missions isn't what EVE is about and anyone who does that is missing out. They look down on high sec because of that.

To be honest I'm a null sec resident but former high sec carebear and go by some of those points. I don't look down on high sec dwellers but I do think you're missing out on what this game is actually about. It's not about the endless grinding of level 4's, high sec incursions or cosmos missions (although they're about the only fun PVE content) but the fights in null sec which transcend the game itself. The risk, the danger, the evil or want to be evil ego manic overlords etc.
Seven Noctis
#43 - 2012-12-11 14:39:29 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I actually dislike those people too, just as much as I dislike nullsec players who demand that everything be their way. Two sides of the same coin, really. As a matter of principle I'm against any opinion in the line of 'We should be completely invulnerable in highsec.'

I think 'on average' is throwing it too far, though. To be fair, I think saying that 'on average' nullsec players have an absurd hatred for everyone else is a falsehood as well.
But you make an interesting point, in that it's sort of the same mentality that drives the hatred on both sides; that is, "This game should be the way I want it, and everybody else can go to hell!"

Which is quite saddening.


And the answer to this problem is a true sandbox. Game where players create the rules around them and not the game mechanics. Game where if you want a safer environment, you organize a group of people and make it so. And if you have different ideas, you are free to act on them too.

The issue is, the typical hi-sec player is anti-sandbox. They want their play style enforced through game mechanics rather than their own effort and don't give a damn about how it will affect any other play style. The typical "hardcore" player is pro-sandbox. They want the game to have as few limitations as possible so that everyone can actually play how they want without too many restrictions forced on them.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-12-11 14:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Changes to high sec impact null.

Some of you need to stop being so ignorant as to think that CCP can just change things in high sec and it only effect high sec. High sec doesn't exist on it's own server, indipendant of every other area of the game world. It's all EVE, and it's all on TQ.

Seems a lot of you can't get your heads around this, or willfully ignore that very simple concept.


You keep saying this, without providing any proof or examples.

Thankfully some people earlier have proposed some theories that seem valid (For example, that null simply doesn't have the manufacturing capability to keep up with itself, and that the average null player is reliant on highsec profits to support themself.)
I've replied multiple times that I fully understand that EVE is a single shard MMO. I just think that the impact of highsec market activity is negligible on nullsec operations, due to the ability of null alliances to rake in so much ISK as to make highsec prices almost meaningless, and their ability to manufacture their own goods.

Feel free to throw around the accusation that we're all "Just being ignorant!", but if you refuse to validate your claims I'm just going to start ignoring them.

So far it seems like the issue really boils down to players doing two things
1) Demanding that the game be the way they want it to be, regardless of anyone else.
2) Misdirecting their anger/frustrating, and wrongly attributing problems, to other players, instead of towards CCP.

Not sure there's much else to be said, but I suppose I'll continue to watch this in case anything interesting pops up. Thank you to those who provided thought-out and intelligent replies.

The proof of example is the ******* game you play!

And you obviously didn't get it.

Making changes to high sec, for the sake of "high sec" impact every other area of the game, just like making changes to null can have impact on high sec.

Changes must be considered as a WHOLE, not in part. If you make a change in one area you HAVE TO consider the impact in another, and it goes BOTH WAYS.


You're being willfully ignorant.


Edit: I love the way you end with a statement of implication that yours was the final word.
Narsasitic much?
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-12-11 14:46:22 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
OP, can I suggest you have a read of The Big Lie I think the reasons for the entrenched dogma (whichever side of the fence you lay claim to) can be found here.



That actually seems to sum up the situation perfectly, reading the rest of it now. I'm quite impressed. Thank you for posting that link!
Harland White
Adventurer's Guild
#46 - 2012-12-11 14:47:52 UTC
The game is perfectly fine the way it is. Null sec zealots and their CCP and CSM allies (who are 99% null sec zealots themselves) simply want a huge influx of new players to move into null so they can line their killboards more. That's ALL it boils down to. They want to nerf high-sec into oblivion to force a big portion of the newer playerbase into null, so they can get a shitload of new, free killmails.

Prove me wrong. Seriously.

By their fruit you will recognize them.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#47 - 2012-12-11 14:48:52 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.


First, let me thank you for at least attempting an intelligent and decent response. It is appreciated.

Now the 'However . . .'
So simply because we enjoy playing the game in a different manner than you, we should not play it at all? If my post was 'bad logic', I can't imagine how one might begin to describe yours.
Personally, I've never asked that CCP make highsec safer. I enjoy the fact I can be and sometimes am blown up in highsec, it's one of the reasons I play EVE.
As far as risk/reward being off, I agree, but this applies to nullsec as well in some cases. I don't really consider that a particularly valid argument.

In the end, your post reminds me of a sort of gradeschool mentality.
Kid quietly sitting in the corner of the playground, alone, minding his own business. A group of kids sees him and wonders why he's not participating. "Man, what a loser!" one of the kids in the group declares, prompting them to go and harass the loner.
He wasn't affecting them in any way, shape, or form; but his preference for being alone to being in a group is cause enough for him to be singled out and harassed.
Judging from your post, the two scenarios seem eerily familiar.


Your analogy is extremely flawed because your understanding of EVE is flawed.

Let me correct it for you.
Kid is sitting in the middle of the football pitch with the football in his hands
A group of kids who want to play football see him and wonder what he's up to
They ask him if he wants to join them for a game of football
He screams "NO LEAVE ME ALONE"
Then they get annoyed because they wanted to use the ball and pitch to play a game, they even wanted him to join them, but not only did he not want to join, he refuses to move or give up the ball.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-12-11 14:48:55 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Kinis Deren wrote:
OP, can I suggest you have a read of The Big Lie I think the reasons for the entrenched dogma (whichever side of the fence you lay claim to) can be found here.



That actually seems to sum up the situation perfectly, reading the rest of it now. I'm quite impressed. Thank you for posting that link!

No demand of proof of example? WTF.

It's a longer version of what I posted, and you chose to refute.

Amazing.
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#49 - 2012-12-11 14:52:42 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
I'm quite honestly curious. The passion (for lack of a kinder word) shown by those who live primarily in nullsec towards those who live primarily in highsec is rather mind boggling. I'll leave lowsec players out of it for the most part, since they generally seem more interested in improving their own lot, and less interested in degrading someone elses.

I can't see any way in which high sec activity affects null happenings in any significant way. At most, the profits of activities in highsec affect market prices, which can affect nullsec players. If anything, though, nullsec players should see this as a boon, if it keeps material, module, and ship prices down. Although even then, from what I understand, larger nullsec corps and alliances manufacture many of their own materials anyway.

And considering that highsec dwellers make up quite a bit of the EVE player base, getting them to leave the game doesn't seem like a brilliant idea, since a loss of paying customers would hurt CCP, which in turn hurts EVE - including nullsec.
So, I'm at a loss. Do nullsec players feel that highsec players are taking dev time and effort away from null/lowsec and putting it towards highsec? I'll grant you that may be true to a certain extent, although blaming players for wanting their AO to be buffed seems not only silly, but hypocritical.

It's fairly obvious that many (Though certainly not all) nullsec players enjoy trolling and generally pissing off highsec players. I get that, even if I don't share the same mindset. In a world in which you are largely powerless, it's nice to feel powerful in a game. (It's ok to admit it, we're all in the same boat when it comes to real life. There's nothing inherently wrong with it; you're not hurting anyone IRL.) The fact that someone mining alone in some random belt can cause such a strong emotion as hate in a totally random and unrelated stranger is . . . well . . . bizarre, to say the least.

So is that it, then? Surely there must be a better reason for what I can only describe as 'unwarranted hate' than the aspect of trolling. I often hear talk of how "Carebears are destroying EVE!", however there is never an accompanying validating statement. I also hear a lot of talk about how highsec players should be forced into playing in low/nullsec conditions, however this fails to consider that many EVE players would simply quit the game if this were attempted, again, harming CCP and subsequently EVE.
Considering that most new players (Not alts or re-subs) start out as highsec players, then gravitate towards PvP or stay as highsec players, the statement that "Carebears are destroying EVE!" seems patently false. I suppose if your ideal version of EVE is one in which only those who live in nullsec exist, then this is true. Such a version, however, does not seem very sustainable.

(TL;DR) In short: please explain to me how the actions of those in highsec negatively affects nullsec players, since the two are largely separate worlds, with the exception of markets and allocation of dev time? If the actions of highsec players don't in fact affect nullsec, then please explain why many nullsec players feels such strong emotions towards highsec players?


This is an example of the bad logic coming out of high sec people, and the main reason why many of us dislike them. It amounts to another "why won;t you leave us alone" post.

You want to be left alone, log off.

Most of those "high sec people" are "single player game people in a multiplayer game" solo types that don't care about anything (like voting for the csm lol), even though the whole game is one complex organism with lots of moving parts. EVERYTHING everyone does just about affects everyone else, and people who have ventured out from under CONCORD's skirts know this.

So no, we won't leave you alone, CCP won't trammel-shard the servers to keep you away from us, you have more than enough tools like safeties and CONCORD to keep you "safe" in a game with no safety. And Yes, we will continue to point out to CCP and all that the risk/reward balances of the game are off, and that being able to sit in the most protected space and (as an individual shotin red Xs) still make as much isk as you could in the most dangerous space is wrong.

This is a prime example of a player who is butt hurt because the game is not getting played the way they want. Players like this want to be able to take their billion skill point pilot and come to hi-sec and impose their will on you and your 10 million skill point pilot and they want you to not be able to do nothing but cry about it. They resent the fact that they can’t do this in hi-sec free of penalty.

They have ruined their own space null/low with their own crappy tactics of gate camping and blobbing and fear of engaging in pvp because of the hot/cold drop of the incoming fleet. They can no longer impose their will on other players in low/null so now they have sought the last bastion of refuge in Eve….Hi-sec.

The safer Hi-sec becomes the less ability they have to impose their dominance of hi-sec players so they continue to loath and demonize what they refer to as carebares. The more control you have the less they have over you.

So they come to the forums and fight their fight not caring if they ruin the game for others because they have already ran the full course of the game. They are on their last chance to impose their schoolyard bully tactics on the only one they can, the only ones that don’t have the ability to fight back or have the skill points or ships to fight back….the carebare the scourge of Eve the ruination of the game the ones that must be destroyed.

This is them, this is their Eve
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#50 - 2012-12-11 14:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Metal Icarus
because nullsec sucks. Its like a second job. everything from camping, mining, anom scanning, camping, sitting on a titan pos takes hours and hours. They want more people to come down and help them with the work. (camping uttered twice for emphasis on gate camping)

in highsec, if I need to walk away and choke the chicken, I can.

I used to be a soldier, I faught for people, lost ships for people, got tired of working and dying for nothing.... Sov is not worth time it takes to fight for it. Oh sure you can upgrade the system, but in order to be set up, it requries logistics. To get all set up and everything in place, POSes, POCOs, Infastructure hubs, TCUs.... What return do you get?

Oh sure there are super coalitions that say "OH WE SO FUN! WE PAY YOU, WE BUY YOU SHIPS!!!! RAT IN OUR SPACE, WE ARE BLUE WITH HALF OF NULL!!!" Thats great... for them. Everybody else that just want a slice of the pie in null is forced to join a coalition or be pushed out with overwhelming asymetric force.

I tired Null, I was ok with it, but it takes to much time to have fun.

NPC null may be fun, but I never put effort into living in an npc null station.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#51 - 2012-12-11 14:54:17 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Changes to high sec impact null.

Some of you need to stop being so ignorant as to think that CCP can just change things in high sec and it only effect high sec. High sec doesn't exist on it's own server, indipendant of every other area of the game world. It's all EVE, and it's all on TQ.

Seems a lot of you can't get your heads around this, or willfully ignore that very simple concept.


You keep saying this, without providing any proof or examples.

Thankfully some people earlier have proposed some theories that seem valid (For example, that null simply doesn't have the manufacturing capability to keep up with itself, and that the average null player is reliant on highsec profits to support themself.)
I've replied multiple times that I fully understand that EVE is a single shard MMO. I just think that the impact of highsec market activity is negligible on nullsec operations, due to the ability of null alliances to rake in so much ISK as to make highsec prices almost meaningless, and their ability to manufacture their own goods.

Feel free to throw around the accusation that we're all "Just being ignorant!", but if you refuse to validate your claims I'm just going to start ignoring them.

So far it seems like the issue really boils down to players doing two things
1) Demanding that the game be the way they want it to be, regardless of anyone else.
2) Misdirecting their anger/frustrating, and wrongly attributing problems, to other players, instead of towards CCP.

Not sure there's much else to be said, but I suppose I'll continue to watch this in case anything interesting pops up. Thank you to those who provided thought-out and intelligent replies.

The proof of example is the ******* game you play!

And you obviously didn't get it.

Making changes to high sec, for the sake of "high sec" impact every other area of the game, just like making changes to null can have impact on high sec.

Changes must be considered as a WHOLE, not in part. If you make a change in one area you HAVE TO consider the impact in another, and it goes BOTH WAYS.


You're being willfully ignorant.


Edit: I love the way you end with a statement of implication that yours was the final word.
Narsasitic much?


i've noticed the same things you have.

It's a Charade really, one we see all the time. People pretend to ask the "innocent question" as if they have no opinion when they really do, then go on to reject everything everyone else says.....because they have already formed an opinion BEFORE posting. It's really irritating.

To the OP and people like her, why ask a question you already think you have the answer to? The conclusions you come to
("ie misdirected anger" and "they want me to play their way") are simply self-serving dodges. No one cares why or how you play and there is nothing to be angry at CCP for, they simply set the background, the PLAYERS make the game.

It's not high sec I dislike, nor all high sec players. I dislike "the High Sec mentality", which looks very much like the welfare/entitlement queen mentality I deal with everyday in real life.
Silath Slyver Silverpine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-12-11 14:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Silath Slyver Silverpine
Eh, screw it. No point feeding the trolls.

At least I discovered something from this; that the problem really is more in our mentalities, and our handling of the various issues, than from any patent or logical cause.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#53 - 2012-12-11 14:59:02 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:

This is a prime example of a player who is butt hurt because the game is not getting played the way they want. Players like this want to be able to take their billion skill point pilot and come to hi-sec and impose their will on you and your 10 million skill point pilot and they want you to not be able to do nothing but cry about it. They resent the fact that they can’t do this in hi-sec free of penalty.

They have ruined their own space null/low with their own crappy tactics of gate camping and blobbing and fear of engaging in pvp because of the hot/cold drop of the incoming fleet. They can no longer impose their will on other players in low/null so now they have sought the last bastion of refuge in Eve….Hi-sec.

The safer Hi-sec becomes the less ability they have to impose their dominance of hi-sec players so they continue to loath and demonize what they refer to as carebares. The more control you have the less they have over you.

So they come to the forums and fight their fight not caring if they ruin the game for others because they have already ran the full course of the game. They are on their last chance to impose their schoolyard bully tactics on the only one they can, the only ones that don’t have the ability to fight back or have the skill points or ships to fight back….the carebare the scourge of Eve the ruination of the game the ones that must be destroyed.

This is them, this is their Eve


So much fail. Why people need to hide behind such easily disporvable BS is amazing to me still.

Ther eis nothing wrong with null, I play there (and in high) every night. But people like you need to believe that the only reason we screw around with high sec is because "we ruin our null sec".

it's not true, people screw with high sec because you cry so much, and the people griefing you like tears. End of story.

No one is trying to control what you do, this is just paranoia. most people don't care what you do, but you cling to that idea because it gives you some kind of sense of self importance. It's simply not true.

The mangle the firelfy quote, we ar enot the bad guys, you are not the plucky Hi-Sec hero fighting for freedom against bullies, and nothing is what it seems.

And that is not incense....*EXPLOSION*
Seven Noctis
#54 - 2012-12-11 15:00:47 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
This is a prime example of a player [. . .]


I have a feeling you don't like competitive multi-player games. Guess what, EVE is meant to be a competitive multi-player game.
Randolph Rothstein
whatever corp.
#55 - 2012-12-11 15:01:35 UTC
to sum up

nullsec carebears want eve to be LOL

highsec carebears want eve to be WoW

what did i win? Blink
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-12-11 15:01:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
Eh, screw it. No point feeding the trolls.

At least I discovered something from this; that the problem really is more in our mentalities, and our handling of the various issues, than from any patent or logical cause.


You didn't get the point of it.

People crying about changes to one area of the game, tend to ignore the potential impact of that change on other areas of the game. They tend to not care because it's "their playstyle" they're only interested in, as apposed to actually considering the game as a whole, were null needs high sec and high sec needs null.

The essense of the article you read.



And I'm perfectly aware that when put up against real logic and intelligence, it's much easier to just through out "troll" as if it makes you right.

It's not my fault you didn't get it.
I used the word narsistic early. It's spot on here.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#57 - 2012-12-11 15:04:07 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
This is a prime example of a player who is butt hurt because the game is not getting played the way they want. Players like this want to be able to take their billion skill point pilot and come to hi-sec and impose their will on you and your 10 million skill point pilot and they want you to not be able to do nothing but cry about it. They resent the fact that they can’t do this in hi-sec free of penalty.

They have ruined their own space null/low with their own crappy tactics of gate camping and blobbing and fear of engaging in pvp because of the hot/cold drop of the incoming fleet. They can no longer impose their will on other players in low/null so now they have sought the last bastion of refuge in Eve….Hi-sec.

The safer Hi-sec becomes the less ability they have to impose their dominance of hi-sec players so they continue to loath and demonize what they refer to as carebares. The more control you have the less they have over you.

So they come to the forums and fight their fight not caring if they ruin the game for others because they have already ran the full course of the game. They are on their last chance to impose their schoolyard bully tactics on the only one they can, the only ones that don’t have the ability to fight back or have the skill points or ships to fight back….the carebare the scourge of Eve the ruination of the game the ones that must be destroyed.

This is them, this is their Eve


This is a prime example of a player who doesn't understand the nature of EVE online, and of a player who apparently lacks basic reading comprehension skills, based on his rambling and complete misinterpretation of what Jenn said
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-12-11 15:05:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

i've noticed the same things you have.

It's a Charade really, one we see all the time. People pretend to ask the "innocent question" as if they have no opinion when they really do, then go on to reject everything everyone else says.....because they have already formed an opinion BEFORE posting. It's really irritating.

To the OP and people like her, why ask a question you already think you have the answer to? The conclusions you come to
("ie misdirected anger" and "they want me to play their way") are simply self-serving dodges. No one cares why or how you play and there is nothing to be angry at CCP for, they simply set the background, the PLAYERS make the game.

It's not high sec I dislike, nor all high sec players. I dislike "the High Sec mentality", which looks very much like the welfare/entitlement queen mentality I deal with everyday in real life.

That is as perfect a summary of the OP's post and follow up responces as you can get.

I'll just ask a question as if I care about others opinions, and then tell anyone that disagrees with me their wrong and obviously trolling.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#59 - 2012-12-11 15:06:27 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
because nullsec sucks. Its like a second job. everything from camping, mining, anom scanning, camping, sitting on a titan pos takes hours and hours. They want more people to come down and help them with the work. (camping uttered twice for emphasis on gate camping)

in highsec, if I need to walk away and choke the chicken, I can.

I used to be a soldier, I faught for people, lost ships for people, got tired of working and dying for nothing.... Sov is not worth time it takes to fight for it. Oh sure you can upgrade the system, but in order to be set up, it requries logistics. To get all set up and everything in place, POSes, POCOs, Infastructure hubs, TCUs.... What return do you get?

Oh sure there are super coalitions that say "OH WE SO FUN! WE PAY YOU, WE BUY YOU SHIPS!!!! RAT IN OUR SPACE, WE ARE BLUE WITH HALF OF NULL!!!" Thats great... for them. Everybody else that just want a slice of the pie in null is forced to join a coalition or be pushed out with overwhelming asymetric force.

I tired Null, I was ok with it, but it takes to much time to have fun.

NPC null may be fun, but I never put effort into living in an npc null station.


EVe may be the wrong game for you, as EFFORT is the second name of the game (the real 1st name is CONFLICT). Thing is, the effort is only in the set up, not the operation.

I too can walk away from the anoms i'm running in null sec to Strangle the Flightless Avian if i choose to, it's called a safe spot and a cloak.

I live one carrier jump from empire if I want to go there, it's jump in carrier, undock, light cyno on alt, jump. Not even that much effort. When i want isk and don't feel like starting up my incursion toon and waiting for a fleet, I undock ship, scan for 10 seconds, warp to anom and profit lol.

If you don't like null, that's fine, but realize that you may have simply done null life wrong if it was so tedius to you, It's not to me, even though I lost a Rattlesnake a few nights ago to a roaming gang. Such is life.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-12-11 15:06:34 UTC
Silath Slyver Silverpine wrote:
If this is the case, wouldn't it be more logical to be angry at CCP, than at highsec players? I don't think we highsec players would complain if nullsec got a boost to manufacturing capability. I know I could not care less if that happened, personally. Nonetheless thanks for the response, I'll give those links a glance.

It's not necessarily the dichotomy between null/highsec in practical terms that bothers me, but the player-directed anger that stems from it.

Yeah, we're annoyed at CCP for allowing these issues to build up to the point where newer players believe that's just the way it is and should always be. Its a natural conclusion to draw that 'the designers must have meant it to be this way, what are these guys complaining about' rather than that CCP have allowed an imbalance to build up for over half a decade. But when those same newer players start to invent ulterior motives to dismiss our legitimate concerns (you'll see a several of these in this very thread) and loudly proclaim that there's no imbalance and that the status quo should be preserved, spouting well rehearsed talking points about Griefing Bully Nullbear Control-Freak Whiners, they become part of the problem too.

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I've also often heard of nullsec players having an alt or four in highsec to make money, which is a reason I find it strange they often cry for highsec nerfs. Again though, as I said above, it seems like an issue of misdirected hate. I don't necessarily deny that there are significant problems with EVE balance (though exactly what, I'm not well versed enough to say in depth).

Many of us use highsec alts to generate income, yes (I don't). It has become a necessary evil under the current system since nullsec ratting systems can only really support 2 or 3 characters at a time compared to the infinitely scaling highsec missions and ice belts, but in the long run it greatly damages the health of 0.0 life. You'll see multiple threads here and elsewhere complaining that 0.0 is dead and empty and that roaming gankers can't find anyone to kill except a massive blob, and it's largely because everyone is running a highsec alt under CONCORD's protection and only logs into their 0.0 character for some sort of alliance fleet op. There's simply no incentive for the typical player to leave highsec and see what the more player-controlled side of the game has to offer, and that's harmful to the future of a game which relies largely on player-created content for much of its marketing.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.