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Why does nullsec care so much about what highsec is doing?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#321 - 2012-12-13 13:40:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
That assumes that the hi-sec markets are currently "correct". Given the value of Scordite compared to what are supposed to be the "high end" ores, I would like you to expand on that assumption for us please.

To put it another way, the hi-sec mineral market is vastly over-inflated; it is the 0.0 market that has collapsed.


Markets are always correct.



But game resource/mechanics balances aren't



That's why a week or so ago I posted in another of these endless threads that I'd have restored mineral drops in the drone regions (with a different composition, ie less high compounds) and ofc I got flamed.

That change would help restore low ends in null sec, would kill an important current ISK faucet (expecially since much farmed hi sec missions may also include drones). A possible sweeping BPOs minerals requirements increase would then make sure the new influx of minerals would not reproduce the bad situation that led to the drone minerals removal.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#322 - 2012-12-13 13:41:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
How many TUTORIAL MISSION frigates dying equals the minerals needed to build 1 Titan?


NaN, because rookie ships can't be reprocessed.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#323 - 2012-12-13 13:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
That's why a week or so ago I posted in another of these endless threads that I'd have restored mineral drops in the drone regions (with a different composition, ie less high compounds) and ofc I got flamed.

That change would help restore low ends in null sec, would kill an important current ISK faucet (expecially since much farmed hi sec missions may also include drones). A possible sweeping BPOs minerals requirements increase would then make sure the new influx of minerals would not reproduce the bad situation that led to the drone minerals removal.


They should have probably made adjustments to drone compounds rather than removing the drops outright - a balance between cheap titans and 200 ISK/m3 scordite, as it were

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#324 - 2012-12-13 13:46:18 UTC
Roosevelt Coltrane wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Roosevelt Coltrane wrote:
Truth:

Most people don't care.

Most people think E-uni is a good idea, even if they would never be a member

Most people think mining is fine, even if they find it mind numbingly boring

Most people think running missions is fine, even if they find it lacking challenge, dull and repetitive

Maybe they will come and harass you... but its all in fun

But some people have low self esteem and look to a video game for their self worth

You can identify them because they will put down the way another chooses to play

Hisec putting down null.... null hating hisec. Both have low self esteem. Truth.


Sorry, that's just not true, you fell of the rails just as soon as you went to that "because they will put down the way another chooses to play" stuff. I honest to God don't know where this stuff comes from, are people actually sending you EVE mails or convo'ing you and saying "the way you play is wrong, you should play like me"?



Seriously? Have you not read this thread?

Or maybe i just hit too close to home Blink


Yea, you could say i read this whole thread, and all I see is a bunch of Hig hsec people hiding behind that insane "you just don't want me to play my way" crap.

Who in their right mine actually believes there is some evil dude sitting at a computer saying "your clicking of buttons is inadequate compared to mine, you must pay"?

More evidence of high sec thinking, basically "if people are PLAYING AN MMO like it has other people in it (rather than playing it like it's a single player game with an added chat box) well, they must really care about how I play, and me as a person, because look at that dude trying to shoot me in a game where damn near every ship has guns".......

It's just silly and you people should stop being silly.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#325 - 2012-12-13 13:55:25 UTC
Andski wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The conveniently forgotten consequence of making null sec safe is that prices tank down to hi sec levels, it's how it works everywhere including in real life. The fact that null sec is made safe with players effort appears to be completely ignored by the markets, which only look at results not at politics or "should be".


Thank you for an irrelevant commentary on the state of nullsec, but none of what you said is true. Nullsec mining is no safer than it ever was, unless you consider the flash in the local window a significant increase in safety (compared to changes preventing software from BACON from working)


At the time of the perma Hulkageddon, a number of large botters moved to nullsec. I even have a couple (of their Orca alts) in my contact list, I met them in The Forge but now they are in null.
Since they are still there, it means it's not so impossible to bot big time.


Andski wrote:

What we /did/ lose was a huge faucet of nocxium, zydrine and most low-end minerals. There has been no significant increase in mining to compensate for the loss of drone compounds until the mining barge changes, which has only had a minor effect on low-end mineral prices (because of the fact that everyone is AFK mining ice which doesn't require anywhere near the effort of mining ore)

If what you say is true, then hedbergite and hemorphite, which can be found in some of the safest parts of nullsec, would also be worthless - they're not, however, and they're higher in isk/m3 than almost anything else.


Zydrine is in no shortage, explain that.
The low end minerals shortage is due both to "I go ice because it's more AFK" you described but also to a real shortage.
In the last weeks I wanted to quickly do some mining (I adapt to whatever is the current ISK maker), I had to move to those super forsaken Concord systems to find some belts that would be still intact 3-4 hours past down time, and even then, only in station-less systems. All the rest was completely ravaged, despite CCP returned respawning roids on a daily basis.

That's a further argument to my suggestion to partly undo the drone regions nerf.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#326 - 2012-12-13 15:02:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Yea, you could say i read this whole thread, and all I see is a bunch of Hig hsec people hiding behind that insane "you just don't want me to play my way" crap.

Who in their right mine actually believes there is some evil dude sitting at a computer saying "your clicking of buttons is inadequate compared to mine, you must pay"?

More evidence of high sec thinking, basically "if people are PLAYING AN MMO like it has other people in it (rather than playing it like it's a single player game with an added chat box) well, they must really care about how I play, and me as a person, because look at that dude trying to shoot me in a game where damn near every ship has guns".......

It's just silly and you people should stop being silly.

I personally know a person who won't play any MMO ever because the thought that there is a live person on the other end of the pixels that they are competing with is just too much to take.

You might think it's silly, but for them it's real.

I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who can tolerate the competition but don't enjoy it the same way you or I might, are you saying that they shouldn't have a place in the game?

To be successful, EvE needs to be appealing to enough players to pay the bills, and due to spaceships being less appealing to most people than humanoid avatars that's going to mean leaving a space for the competition-averse who also happen to like spaceships.

WiS, properly done, could allow for a more aggressive stance overall. Dust 514 certainly does, but only on that front of the game.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#327 - 2012-12-13 15:10:10 UTC
Quote:
I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who can tolerate the competition but don't enjoy it the same way you or I might, are you saying that they shouldn't have a place in the game?


I would say they shouldn't. Eve is a multiplayer competitive game, F those people.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#328 - 2012-12-13 15:14:59 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Yea, you could say i read this whole thread, and all I see is a bunch of Hig hsec people hiding behind that insane "you just don't want me to play my way" crap.

Who in their right mine actually believes there is some evil dude sitting at a computer saying "your clicking of buttons is inadequate compared to mine, you must pay"?

More evidence of high sec thinking, basically "if people are PLAYING AN MMO like it has other people in it (rather than playing it like it's a single player game with an added chat box) well, they must really care about how I play, and me as a person, because look at that dude trying to shoot me in a game where damn near every ship has guns".......

It's just silly and you people should stop being silly.

I personally know a person who won't play any MMO ever because the thought that there is a live person on the other end of the pixels that they are competing with is just too much to take.

You might think it's silly, but for them it's real.

I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who can tolerate the competition but don't enjoy it the same way you or I might, are you saying that they shouldn't have a place in the game?

To be successful, EvE needs to be appealing to enough players to pay the bills, and due to spaceships being less appealing to most people than humanoid avatars that's going to mean leaving a space for the competition-averse who also happen to like spaceships.

WiS, properly done, could allow for a more aggressive stance overall. Dust 514 certainly does, but only on that front of the game.


They have a place in the game in exactly the same way that people who hate contact sports have a place in a rugby match. They can be in the audience, They can coach, or be match officials or commentate or run a concession stand.

But if they think they can turn a game which is about a direct contest of strength and endurance into a non-contact sport, then they can get out.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#329 - 2012-12-13 15:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Malcanis wrote:


They have a place in the game in exactly the same way that people who hate contact sports have a place in a rugby match. They can be in the audience, They can coach, or be match officials or commentate or run a concession stand.

But if they think they can turn a game which is about a direct contest of strength and endurance into a non-contact sport, then they can get out.


considering that ccp seems to be swinging IN that direction, revamping mob AI, better mining ships etc (I remember when those changes came in and the suicide gankers' tears over the death of their profession), etc, looks like they dont in fact have to. They just have to wait their turn for the attention.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#330 - 2012-12-13 15:28:57 UTC
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#331 - 2012-12-13 15:30:19 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.


this too. Unless you buy into what the devs said how everything in the game is pvp, then yeah market strength ftw

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Shylari Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#332 - 2012-12-13 15:39:18 UTC
Posting in a Mining Needs Re-Balancing thread.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#333 - 2012-12-13 15:41:49 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.



I can think of game analogues for all those positions.

EVE is specifically designed so that the stronger party wins. But there are many kinds of strengths, just as there are different roles within a rugby team. A Fly-half is rarely a musclebound weightlifter.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#334 - 2012-12-13 15:42:26 UTC
Danks wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure there are a lot of other people out there who can tolerate the competition but don't enjoy it the same way you or I might, are you saying that they shouldn't have a place in the game?


I would say they shouldn't. Eve is a multiplayer competitive game, F those people.


Good luck playing alone with your alts and your principles.

Btw when did he said that those guys weren't 'competitive' it's just that some people dont care about the pewpewboom way of being competitive. I know it's quite hard to imagine for the average null-sec player (sarcasm implied), but some people may have fun with the risk of, say, living in non-hisec space, or even just putting a target or their backs by afk mining, while not continually dropping ships on anybody that happens to enter sigth just because lol.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2012-12-13 15:50:52 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Btw when did he said that those guys weren't 'competitive' it's just that some people dont care about the pewpewboom way of being competitive.


There's an ocean of difference between "I don't care about PVP" and "I want the game changed because I don't like PVP". The former is whatever, the latter is the one that really does need to re-evaluate why they play Eve. Changing the game for the latter is dangerous and stupid.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#336 - 2012-12-13 15:51:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.



I can think of game analogues for all those positions.

EVE is specifically designed so that the stronger party wins. But there are many kinds of strengths, just as there are different roles within a rugby team. A Fly-half is rarely a musclebound weightlifter.

Your talking past my argument.

Even the audience in EvE needs to be part of the game.

Frankly, unlike rugby, EvE isn't one game at all.

You can't play "resource harvesting" by the same rules as "sovereignty PvP" or "market domination", yet these are all necessary parts of EvE for it to be the rich and engaging game that it is.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2012-12-13 16:10:37 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Btw when did he said that those guys weren't 'competitive' it's just that some people dont care about the pewpewboom way of being competitive.


There's an ocean of difference between "I don't care about PVP" and "I want the game changed because I don't like PVP". The former is whatever, the latter is the one that really does need to re-evaluate why they play Eve. Changing the game for the latter is dangerous and stupid.


That was my point. Somebody talks about "not playing the game the way you want" and the other guy goes "competitive or gtfo". Maybe he wasnt making a competitive=pvp, but by the way it looks I would be surprised.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#338 - 2012-12-13 16:15:43 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.



I can think of game analogues for all those positions.

EVE is specifically designed so that the stronger party wins. But there are many kinds of strengths, just as there are different roles within a rugby team. A Fly-half is rarely a musclebound weightlifter.

Your talking past my argument.

Even the audience in EvE needs to be part of the game.

Frankly, unlike rugby, EvE isn't one game at all.

You can't play "resource harvesting" by the same rules as "sovereignty PvP" or "market domination", yet these are all necessary parts of EvE for it to be the rich and engaging game that it is.


You can, however, make all those things 100% competitive, and you can make them open to people leveraging their preferred form of competition against yours.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#339 - 2012-12-13 16:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: AstraPardus
Nevermind, it's too complicated.
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#340 - 2012-12-13 16:28:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
EvE has to contain the places for the coach, match officials, concession stand, and audience all as part of the *same game* for your analogy to even be relevant, and as soon as it does you can see that your argument is pointless.

EvE is also designed so that raw strength isn't the only way to win, so the other part of your argument falls over as well since someone can "win EvE" by running the most profitable concession stand without ever taking to the field.



I can think of game analogues for all those positions.

EVE is specifically designed so that the stronger party wins. But there are many kinds of strengths, just as there are different roles within a rugby team. A Fly-half is rarely a musclebound weightlifter.

Your talking past my argument.

Even the audience in EvE needs to be part of the game.

Frankly, unlike rugby, EvE isn't one game at all.

You can't play "resource harvesting" by the same rules as "sovereignty PvP" or "market domination", yet these are all necessary parts of EvE for it to be the rich and engaging game that it is.


You can, however, make all those things 100% competitive, and you can make them open to people leveraging their preferred form of competition against yours.

Which EvE does (to the extent that it's actually possible). But you can't just set up a cola bottling line in the middle of a rugby pitch and expect either the bottlers or the rugby players to be happy about it.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs