Missions & Complexes

the ewar is nothing new, it is why i moved out of gallente space and into minmatar space.

seemingly the only big change lately in ewar was TD, and they toned that down.

I only have 7m sp into ship skills (my other 3m are into mining and industry), so I know how the low sp pilot fairs :D

All MMO's are content games. EVE being a sand box makes no difference. Missions ARE content. If this is not a content game then should we remove all the content it has? Hell no. Just because EVE does not force you to play any of the content to progress, does not mean the game does not have content you can play to progress. They are just not mandatory in EVE. But the content does exist, and does follow a logical progression.

Who said anything about missions being doable with too low skills to fly the ship? I guess it depends on what you consider entry level skills to be. If entry level for battleships is being able to fit a ship with full T2 gear than what is the point of even having T1 gear. But if entry level is being able to fit full T1 gear with decent support skills, then why should you be forced to fit T2 before you can fly it? A T1 battleship fit with full T1 gear used to be able to complete level 4 missions. It was not easy, any you had a high chance of losing your ship. But it was possible. With the current changes a T1 ship with full T1 gear has near zero chance of surviving not matter how good your skills are. I consider that broken content. Sure veterans with pimp fit ships can still do it fairly easy, but for the players at the skill level the content was designed for it is broken.

Part of skill progression is getting into a ship and having the skills to fly it effectively. 8-10 million skill points is plenty to fly an entry level battleship. provided you have not wasted half you skill points on skills you do not need. Before this change a newer player with acceptable battleship skills could run level 4 missions. They had a high risk of losing their ship, but given patience and time could complete them. At this point they could probably make more isk running level 3 missions, but if they want to learn to fly battleships they have to start somewhere. Telling them to wait until they have near perfect skills is the wrong answer.

Level 4 missions are the entry level content for battleships. there is no lower level easier content to run with battleships. level 3 missions are designed for smaller ships with better tracking. They are not meant for battleships size hulls. Getting more skills to use better equipment and complete the missions faster and safer is logical progression. But you should not have to have near perfect skills and a pimp fit battleship before you can even try to fly one. It takes time to learn to fly a battleship properly, and you start out at an entry level with decent skills not perfect skills. The support skills trained for battlecruisers to fly level 3 missions are the same skills needed for battleships. The only extra skills you should need are large weapons, and the needed skills for the hull. The needed support skills you should already have. If you find level 3 missions easy, you should be ready to try level 4 missions.

In fact before the change it was possible to run level 4 missions in a Battlecruiser. it just took really long. logical progression was to move from a well skilled battlecruiser to a entry level battleship which was only slightly better than the battlecruiser. Then continue to progress getting better and faster with the battleship.

However with these changes an entry level battleship can not complete level 4 missions anymore. Even with perfect skills, fit a teir 1 battleship with teir 1 equipment and see how you do. You do not start out in battleships flying a pimp fit mach, you start out in an entry level ship. But if there is no content playable at entry level what is the point in having entry level equipment?

Yes you need decent skills, you need the support skills for either missiles, guns, and/or drones, but you already have those from running level 3 missions if you followed even a remotely logical progression. When your skills get to the point that level 4 missions are to easy, or boring, then it is time to move on,not make the missions harder. there is plenty of higher level content in the game for the veterans to play. level 4 missions were very hard for newer players before. But they were at least doable. Now a newer player with an entry level battleship has almost zero chance to succeed in level 4 missions. This is not about making level 4 missions easy for newer players. It is about making them possible. They were possible before, but not now with the changes.

There are many PLEXes and exploration sites in high sec that are harder to complete than most level 4 missions. If you want more challenging content, play those, and leave the level 4 missions for players who do not have the skills for anything else.

And FUN!

The first time I lost a battleship in a L4 is when I really fell in love with this game!
Playing a certain other MMO, where death by the bucketloads was just a hassle and quite expected, the feeling of loss of such a beautiful ship (Dominix) was... one of the best horrible experiences a game gave me.

And then managing to do the same hard mission with a somewhat different fit, somewhat more skills, but still below what others consider "entry level"?
Priceless!

This would be very good for the game. Both for new players and veterans alike. But then if it was changed as you propose, you would have veteran mission runners running level 5 missions in their pimp fit machs and complaining they are to easy.

After all if they actually run the content they should be they might loose their shiny ship.

Guess we have different ideas on what's decent.
Unless decent = relevant skill at V-ish, but then I'd call it near-perfect and not decent.

Most relevant support skills at IV, T2 medium drones with extra range from EWDI, Core Fitting, and T2 tank skills at V with T1 rigs, choosing armor tank (more SP needed), both T2 MWD and AB as option, AWU at III:
~6.7M SP
Racial BS and Large Gun at V:
~9.5M
Sure, it still has room for improvement, but it's already at a fairly good shape for racial navy battleships.

Throw in some social skills at IV, and either large gun cap cost or for minnie gunnery falloff V, and we are still only at the 10M mark.

I think I started them at 1.5M SP in a passive shield myrm, but it turned out I lack dps.
Got back with a Domi at ~2M SP?
Medium arti and T1 sentries, T1 tank.

Was... not... fast...
Even worse, needed to warp out a few times
But I could do it.
And it was awesome.
And then I got the mission The Assault (Serp ofc)
And my ship became a shiny cloud.
I had no regrets.
It was educational.
I made sure my drones don't accidentally shoot triggers by turning OFF the aggression.
No, I wasn't AFKing, just didn't constantly give orders for my drones, and the tagged the trigger with one cycle, that got me full room agro and second wave.

Next horror story was me foolishly turning aggression back on in Blockade due to having my sensors dampened below 15km while rats were still out at over 50.
...
Yupp, trigger shot, damped down to 9km, and too much dps for me to handle.
Finished it solo, was... so isk inefficient that I cannot tell you.

And I still liked the challenge.
Going back to L3s for the better isk would have killed me with boredom.
(Not to mention since I had good drone skills but crap gunnery, and Myrm not having any turret bonus, i was better off in a domi even there than any BC).

Sorry for the rant.

being able to undock a battleship is not the same as having a complete battleship to take into missions (or pvp combat!)

incomplete-skilled players couldn't possibly look at the 20% of a ship's potential (they are achieving) and then wonder why they're not getting a more survivable ship... could they?

maybe. I guess there was some learning I had to do with drakes way back when. that a ship is not a "mount" that has the same attributes as the next player's "mount."

Im a returning player. Figured id give EVE one more shot.



Ive farmed every lvl 4 BEFORE the AI changes with under 6 mil SP (still under 6 mil on re-sub). I farmed lvl 4s semi-successfully till i had the cash for a faction BS with faction hardeners/ammo. At that point (about 4.5 mil SP at the time) i was farming lvl 4s after a couple months work.



On my return, Instead of diving into lvl 4's i decided to brush up on lvl 3s in a harbinger (t2 fit except for rigs). I ran some missions no problem then i got GU blockade. I could NOT complete GU blockade on my own (Lvl 3) in a t2 fit harbinger. I was forced to warp out and bring in a left over apoc (not my faction apoc).


Insta aggro, drones exploding and all that.



This experience is forcing me to shy away from even attempting a lvl 4. Lvl 4's that i farmed with relative ease before. It just doesnt feel like a fiscally sound decision to even attempt one.



But in general, the economy still seems to base pricing on the ISK/hour that a lvl 4 provides. NOT a lvl 3. Currently taking t2 drones to a lvl 3 is like cutting your profits by 1/3rd.



This is like shutting a door in the face of new players and telling them to wait in line to have fun.



This needs to be fixed.

It's not like they "can't" be done. But you're right that the cost / benefit has gone down the toilet for drone boats, on account of the drone shrinkage every time out. Mobile drones go for 500 - 900K each, and sentries are 1.2 - 1.5m atm. If you lose 2 - 5 mobile drones or one sentry, that's like gunboats having a turret shot off and having to buy a new one every couple of missions. Even if you don't lose them, you still have to pay to repair them every time, where a missile or gun boat can come back with 0 repair cost as long as things don't go completely sideways. The drone losses basically eat all of the mission reward and some of the bounties now, leaving you with the salvage value, if you're lucky. The consumables for gun and missile boats are ammo and cap boosters (if you use them), both of which are dirt cheap in T1 form and work fine with your T2 weapons. The consumable for drone boats is now T2 drones. It's basically like making gunboats come back with 80-90% damage on half their weapons or a couple of guns gone every other time out.