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Pending changes to T2 rig production?

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CCP Fear
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2011-10-11 16:18:02 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
The more refined solution is to come up with a system that allows the recycling of ALL salvage into base components. Let's say for example: intact armor plates recycles to 10 titanium bars, armor plates recyles into 5 titanium bars, burned logic circuit recycles into 1 titanium bar and 1 copper bar . These metal bars can be traded as base commodities. Intact armor plates can be re-manufactured, but at a cost of 10 titanium bars and 1 copper bar. It's a closed loop, nothing is wasted - part of the demand can be filled by breaking down the useless salvage. Hopefully you get the idea.

The above will get both the market and production people scrambling as there are probably massive stockpiles of useless salvage lying around in people's hangar. You may not even have to tweak any drops until the market rights itself. Implementing it however, isn't a cakewalk.


I like this one. The balancing of it might be tricky, but it looks (from 30 seconds of looking at it) quite easy to develop, as I don't think it requires any programming. Something i'll mull over for the next few days.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#22 - 2011-10-11 16:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
I like the scrap it down and build it back up idea as anything else and it would tier 2 the industry a bit in alot of places. Most intersting windows I see opening though would be the meta-level module construction where you need some of these extra parts to build it outside the original modules needs, would be a short term pita to work out for all 20k items though.

Now that leaves the other question... how do you get meta-level blueprints?

I have my ideas but that would be OT for this thread. However I would like to barrow elements of the scrap/build idea a bit for the salvager profession Im trying to peice together.

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SamGromoff
Goonbine Honnete Ober Advancer Mercantiles
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2011-10-11 16:51:50 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
But I'm now very turned on by some sort of a "anti-bottleneck" feature for salvage. Alchemizing 4B to 1A or something like that might be an interesting dynamic, but it might also just be a annoying stop gap. Anyway, I'm thinking about it.


Please don't do alchemy, because

Sturmwolke wrote:
The more refined solution is to come up with a system that allows the recycling of ALL salvage into base components. Let's say for example: intact armor plates recycles to 10 titanium bars, armor plates recyles into 5 titanium bars, burned logic circuit recycles into 1 titanium bar and 1 copper bar . These metal bars can be traded as base commodities. Intact armor plates can be re-manufactured, but at a cost of 10 titanium bars and 1 copper bar. It's a closed loop, nothing is wasted - part of the demand can be filled by breaking down the useless salvage. Hopefully you get the idea. It's really a math problem and I'm sure some of the math wizards can build a construct for simulation to ensure nothing gets wasted (or have very minimal waste).


Since the noctis exists, what that will do is make all salvage equally worthless and all rigs equally cheap within weeks. The most expensive t1 salvage is what, 40-50k a unit? Half of it is under 100isk/u. There's nothing you can do to change that without making it massively rarer and this whole exercise just makes things more annoying for no real reason. Moon alchemy works because you have to alchemize r16 goo (not *that* common/worthless on its own) and the process costs significant isk/time to do, which is not and cannot ever be the case for salvage unless you also make salvage alchemy a POS based thing (don't do this, POS suck).

Putting some more interesting things in the loot table is the least effort way of doing it, even at the risk of devaluing some of the items due to the increased drop rates. Perhaps the rigs themselves can drop in finished form once in a blue moon?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2011-10-11 17:19:31 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
I like this one. The balancing of it might be tricky, but it looks (from 30 seconds of looking at it) quite easy to develop, as I don't think it requires any programming. Something i'll mull over for the next few days.


I would run the numbers on how much idle salvage exists in hangars because I think you'll find it's enough to utterly crash the market forever if you do this.

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2011-10-11 17:31:18 UTC
I also agree with SamGromoff that it's likely to merely destroy the value of all salvage, as people convert countless broken trigger mechanisms into intact armor plates even without stockpiles and destroy their value. It could be ameliorated by finely balancing the blueprints and including a fair amount of waste in reprocessing/rebuilding but it'd be a somewhat complex math problem you could easily get wrong.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#26 - 2011-10-11 17:35:45 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Howdy!

Im currently looking into the whole issue of the rigs. Going through the various loot tables and such I've already spotted quite a few problems, errors and so forth which I would like to fix, but I'm stepping lightly as I don't want to just go with guns blazing on this.

But I am interested in any sort of general feedback on what the situation is with T2 rigs from all angles. The salvage (difficulty, is it worth doing, is it too much of a nice?), to Mag. sites (are they worth doing?) , production and invention.

From our standpoint, we would like this to be a bit more commonplace, a bit more profitable for more people and less expensive.

We are also looking at a very short time-frame, so major changes might not happen. But I really like the idea of melting together T1 components into T2, so i'm gonna write it on a post-it and hang it on my monitor. It might be relatively easy to do, but the ratio might be a bit tricky to get right.

Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions are welcome!


How about T3 rigs made from Sleeper guts? Even if the improvements were minor, it'd be nice to have the option to make them. Big smile

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Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#27 - 2011-10-11 19:19:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I also agree with SamGromoff that it's likely to merely destroy the value of all salvage, as people convert countless broken trigger mechanisms into intact armor plates even without stockpiles and destroy their value. It could be ameliorated by finely balancing the blueprints and including a fair amount of waste in reprocessing/rebuilding but it'd be a somewhat complex math problem you could easily get wrong.

That completely depends upon how much base material is gained from each piece of salvage, afterwards the market will stabilize, as we saw recently with datacores as the ghost cores were dumped on the market and agents began to give more cores.


@CCP Fear
In any case please create new skills for making higher grade salvage from lower salvage or materials.


I see several possible scenarios:

1. Salvaged ships drop new base materials. (Heavy Plate, High Power Emitter, Conductive Capacitor, Weapon Mechanism, Combat Processor, Aerospace Thruster , Sensor Node, Reactor Section). Use Blueprints to make either T1 or T2 Rigs.

2. Salvage stays as it is. Converting T1 salvage into T2 salvage by use of Blueprints.

3. Salvaged ships drop simple reactions products, advance materials or construction components depending on how advanced the ship was. Use Blueprints to make either T1 or T2 Rigs. (warning, this may be very dangerous, please ask your economist for feedback).
Vikteren
Gryphon inc.
#28 - 2011-10-11 19:32:58 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Howdy!
We are also looking at a very short time-frame, so major changes might not happen. But I really like the idea of melting together T1 components into T2, so I'm gonna write it on a post-it and hang it on my monitor. It might be relatively easy to do, but the ratio might be a bit tricky to get right.


so I think that this should be the long term solution as getting this wrong can crash t1 salvage and rigs market and not done i haste.

CCP Fear wrote:

I like this one. The balancing of it might be tricky, but it looks (from 30 seconds of looking at it) quite easy to develop, as I don't think it requires any programming. Something i'll mull over for the next few days.


I'm with the guys that worry about destroying all salvage value. It's dangerous and even more difficult to properly balance than melting salvage.

And how come it's easier then melting salvage ? Both can be done by already existing mechanics with comparable effort. Simply use reprocessing for t2->t1 side and blueprints with manufacturing for t1->t2 side (if we can melt from t1 why no make it two direction). And reprocessing waste can be used to make imperfect so that you can't make a cycle without loss of materials. All you have to do is add some blueprints and some reprocessing data.

Another quick solution is increasing drop for bottleneck t2 salvage - but that could mean that it can become not worth the time to do mag sites. Question is what is the dominant source of t2 salvage and how to make it still profitable with increase in drop.

On the matter of bpc drop - as a manufacturer I actually have that such bpc exist at all (the same with t2 bpo - i can't have them so I hate them). I can't compete with rigs made from them in price, and I don't use them as I can't obtain nearly as many as I would need. They are fine if they are in very limited number that they can't influence regular prices of rigs.


Sturmwolke wrote:

With regard to rig invention, it's hell annoying.

It is to say the least.

It would be most helpful to have more runs on t2 bpc from invention - not a base run number of 1 but 10 (like modules) or at least 5. If t2 rigs become more popular due to price drop it will be absolutely necessary so that manufactures can provide enough of them.
There are 2 groups of rigs currently:
a) cheap which are worth making from me -4 bpc. You use 1 run t1 bpc for them but invention takes time (6h medium, 12h large) and you get 1 run t2 bpc - so you can make very limited number of them.
b) popular and expensive rigs - you use decryptors to make cost reasonable and below market price. You use max run t1 bpc so that you can get more runs on bpc to divide bpc cost for more runs but creating such bpc take a LOT of time.
If we (manufactures) will need more rigs to counter more bigger demand on market then this will become major bottelneck (well it already is for me) - time necessary to get bpc. More runs from t2 rigs invention would mean that we are not limited mainly by time. And if t2 rigs would become cheaper than bpc cost would become bigger part of rig price so adding runs to bpc would proportionally reduce that.
And remember that increase in need for invention (if number of runs would not be adjusted) would mean demand for decryptors and same changes on that market.

And last thing - some rigs could be made more popular by adjusting their calibration cost - best example is mentioned before t2 scanning rig that is useless due to it's calibration cost.
BornToDieAnotherDay
Tarazed Technology
#29 - 2011-10-11 19:33:38 UTC
Why bother having different kinds of salvage at all then? If the system isn't destroyed completely by stockpiles (as pointed out by Weaselior), all salvage will simply end up being valued by the number of 'titanium bars' it takes/gives.
Vikteren
Gryphon inc.
#30 - 2011-10-11 19:40:09 UTC
Shin Dari wrote:
@CCP Fear
In any case please create new skills for making higher grade salvage from lower salvage or materials.

nice idea Smile

Shin Dari wrote:

1. Salvaged ships drop new base materials. (Heavy Plate, High Power Emitter, Conductive Capacitor, Weapon Mechanism, Combat Processor, Aerospace Thruster , Sensor Node, Reactor Section). Use Blueprints to make either T1 or T2 Rigs.

2. Salvage stays as it is. Converting T1 salvage into T2 salvage by use of Blueprints.

3. Salvaged ships drop simple reactions products, advance materials or construction components depending on how advanced the ship was. Use Blueprints to make either T1 or T2 Rigs. (warning, this may be very dangerous, please ask your economist for feedback).


@1 it's a major change and could take a lot of time and
CCP Fear wrote:
We are also looking at a very short time-frame, so major changes might not happen.

it's actually creating new salvage mechanics - but maybe it is what's is needed in the long run.
Also:
BornToDieAnotherDay wrote:
all salvage will simply end up being valued by the number of 'titanium bars' it takes/gives.

that. It would be the same - just that bottleneck materials would be the same for t1 and t2 rigs.
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#31 - 2011-10-11 19:40:48 UTC
At first: I would really like to see an expanded Salvage mechanism with more skills. I am an eager Noctis pilot myself, and would like to put even more points into this profession. I am playing this game for 2 month.

And even I have a stockpile of unused salvage, thats just not worth to be sold. The alchemy idea sounds good, additional skills to convert salvage into base materials. But at the same time, if someone like a year old salvager opens his hangars and starts the alchemy, then I fear the only three worthwhile T1 salvage parts (Armour Plates, Alloyed Bars and Tripped Power Circuits) will also lose worth. Converting Salvage into minerals will also not work, because that would hurt mineral prices.

A rebalancing of the available rigs is probably out of the scoop of this patch, but I think this would be the most sensible way of increasing the worth of unused salvage.

Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#32 - 2011-10-11 19:53:05 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
But I'm now very turned on by some sort of a "anti-bottleneck" feature for salvage. Alchemizing 4B to 1A or something like that might be an interesting dynamic, but it might also just be a annoying stop gap. Anyway, I'm thinking about it.


I like the sound of something like this.

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Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#33 - 2011-10-11 19:54:24 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:
The more refined solution is to come up with a system that allows the recycling of ALL salvage into base components. Let's say for example: intact armor plates recycles to 10 titanium bars, armor plates recyles into 5 titanium bars, burned logic circuit recycles into 1 titanium bar and 1 copper bar . These metal bars can be traded as base commodities. Intact armor plates can be re-manufactured, but at a cost of 10 titanium bars and 1 copper bar. It's a closed loop, nothing is wasted - part of the demand can be filled by breaking down the useless salvage. Hopefully you get the idea.

The above will get both the market and production people scrambling as there are probably massive stockpiles of useless salvage lying around in people's hangar. You may not even have to tweak any drops until the market rights itself. Implementing it however, isn't a cakewalk.


I like this one. The balancing of it might be tricky, but it looks (from 30 seconds of looking at it) quite easy to develop, as I don't think it requires any programming. Something i'll mull over for the next few days.


Yes please :)

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Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#34 - 2011-10-11 20:38:26 UTC
Like to reiterate something some said above - please reduce the copy time for max run bpcs. This is a huge issue if you increase supply of T2 salvage by whatever means you choose. Making one rig at a time is not going to get much increased T2 production. Rigs are not ships and should act more as modules. Right now they do not when it comes to bps.

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pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-10-11 21:38:10 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:

From our standpoint, we would like this to be a bit more commonplace, a bit more profitable for more people and less expensive.


More commonplace, more profitable, less expensive: pick two.

Your ideas here need revising. The are two core problems: availability of non-large rig BPCs in nullsec exploration sites, and general profitability of mag/radar sites. The first problem (other sized rig BPCs) is an easy, easy fix. The second problem needs more care. Your solutions so far will not increase the profitability of mag/radar sites. It's supply and demand. Increasing salvage drop rates increases supply. When the patch is first released, people will run the sites and cash in for short term profits, but prices will adjust and soon the sites will not be worth running (again). If you introduce an alchemy mechanism -- converting all basic salvage into trit bars which can then be converted into T2 salvage like intact armor plates or whatever -- you again are increasing supply. This is because people have massive amounts of currently useless salvage in their hangars. So, prices will crater, and then slowly equalize via alchemy reactions. Prices will drop more as people more aggressively scoop up and convert easily accessible T1 salvage. Soon, the sites will not be worth running (again).

Focusing on demand would be nice. Increase usage requirements of salvage, or make it so items such as interfaces or encryptors in radar sites have greater demand in T2 production. Or do both. If you *greatly* increase the demand, prices have no choice but to rise, and maybe more people will actually run the sites instead of passing them up. Heck, tie it in with an isk sink somehow and the economist will be pleased too!

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Gajatu D'Gorah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-10-12 02:37:41 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:

But I am interested in any sort of general feedback on what the situation is with T2 rigs from all angles. The salvage (difficulty, is it worth doing, is it too much of a nice?), to Mag. sites (are they worth doing?) , production and invention.


I live in a WH. mags and radars disappoint me in terms of profitability (i don't do invention or manufacturing). I fully admit that i'm probably not looking at this correctly and/or I am doing it wrong. Still, given the choice between doing 2 "regular" sites and 1 mag/radar, i'll do the 2 sites.
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#37 - 2011-10-12 03:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Xearal
I've found that high sec magnetic sites yield very little in terms of profit, especially compared to the difficulty of scanning them down.

As a total 3 week old newbie, with my little frigate, I was able to make much much more money doing radar sites in high sec than doing magnetic sites, to the point that nowadays i totally ignore magnetic sites.

Maybe an idea would be to introduce some new interesting/usefull rigs which don't have BPO's, but only BPCs, which can only be found doing magnetic sites.( maybe implant BPCs for instance? )

As for the salvage 'alchemy' aside from turning T1 salvage into T2, I don't think turning one kind of salvage into another is a very good idea, while it might spread around the availability of some parts, changing the drop tables would probably be a better idea.

Another good idea would be to have a look at the various tables and compare them for value. Right now, afaik, there's a huge difference between the value of salvage from npcs, Amarr/Sansha/Blood/Angel/Minmatar being 'the best' and serpentis/drones being mediocre, and guristas totally useless to salvage.

Maybe give magnetic sites an 'escalation' kind of thing, with certain (new) sites, where a group of npcs just did THEIR rounds of salvage and flew off, so you can chase them and get their salvage hauler whihc would drop a lot of salvage and/or archeological finds, or a research/salvage station where they process the gunk.

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Sturmwolke
#38 - 2011-10-12 04:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
SamGromoff wrote:
Since the noctis exists, what that will do is make all salvage equally worthless and all rigs equally cheap within weeks. The most expensive t1 salvage is what, 40-50k a unit? Half of it is under 100isk/u.


I'm not sure you understood the general concept entirely. T1 and T2 salvage pricing, currently, are mutually exclusive of each other (let's not get into the if I fit T2, I won't fit T1 nitpicking).
They have different sources and they are utilized differently. This carries forward to their rig pricing (after invention or exploration costs).

By allowing ALL salvage to be broken down into base component parts, you solve a few things :
1) Random bottlenecks, depending on the FoTM
2) Waste (where useless components gets stockpiled ever higher, causing problems down the road)
3) Less frequent balancing acts (as the entire system is dynamicly adaptable, as opposed to static)

Alchemy does the same the same thing, but in a different way.
It is less intuitive as you're playing with recipes rather than simple conversions (at least to me P ... but I'm biased).

Now with all the above said, on the contrary, worthless T1 salvage prices will rise due to the spike in demand (*).
Why? Because now there's a way to monetize worthless salvage, aka more demand.
The only re-manufacturing allowed is : base components -> T2 intact salvage, none other.

(* The L4 skill req plays a major factor imo and if this is dropped to L3, the demand will be massive. Personally, I'm more in favor of leaving it at status quo and let the players sort themselves out. Given enough incentive, they'll go through unimaginable hurdles)

Yes, of course T2 salvage price's gonna dive (**), but that's to be expected - that's why I said CCP may not have to tweak the drops until the market rights itself.

(** It'll more or less flatten across the board if you assume equal conversions. So it depends on how CCP plays with the balancing if you're looking to have some variations. The flattening is good some ways, bad in some others. For the latter, a T2 intact armor salvage obtained in let's say an exploration site, it worth the same as a T2 current pump salvaged from a wreck. So there's really not much of a distinction between different T2 salvage.)
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2011-10-12 07:01:16 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:


(post from page 1)



I've restored your post on the page 1; please let me know if there are any more issues with it. Apologies for the derail. Smile

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire

Sturmwolke
#40 - 2011-10-12 07:36:05 UTC
Thanks <3 ... I was hoping you'd had that feature.