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Not sure if this is the correct place for this question

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1 - 2012-12-08 22:39:15 UTC
The CSM summit ran out of time before I could ask this question:

Given that high sec, supposedly, is still part of the Eve universe, who on the CSM plans on representing the mission runners who have been devastated by the AI changes this week? This is really important as this is just phase 1 of CCP's planned changes to the AI, as CCP plans on closing the loophole in the AI that currently allows for the use of drones, albeit extremely carefully..

From listening the CSM summit, it seems clear this request will fall on deaf ears, and the CSM is encouraging the removal of high sec as an income generation tool.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2 - 2012-12-09 23:46:37 UTC
Moving this from Assembly Hall to Jita Park Speakers Corner.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
#3 - 2012-12-10 02:04:58 UTC
It would almost would work, removing high sec as an income generation tool. Its just that too many players out of hi sec already have too much cash. Be too hard to catch up to them.

Otherwise it would kind of work.
Frying Doom
#4 - 2012-12-10 08:53:47 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM summit ran out of time before I could ask this question:

Given that high sec, supposedly, is still part of the Eve universe, who on the CSM plans on representing the mission runners who have been devastated by the AI changes this week? This is really important as this is just phase 1 of CCP's planned changes to the AI, as CCP plans on closing the loophole in the AI that currently allows for the use of drones, albeit extremely carefully..

From listening the CSM summit, it seems clear this request will fall on deaf ears, and the CSM is encouraging the removal of high sec as an income generation tool.

You might be lucky and someone might bring it up.

But as there is no Mission running representative on the CSM per say so they may not.

Best bet tell all your corp and friends to vote for a high sec representative in the next election, they that way you are covered for this. Otherwise it will just remain a Null sec lobby group with a couple of rouge members that get things done for the rest of EvE.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Kira Vanachura
Green Visstick High
#5 - 2012-12-10 10:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kira Vanachura
Frying Doom wrote:
Best bet tell all your corp and friends to vote for a high sec representative in the next election, they that way you are covered for this. Otherwise it will just remain a Null sec lobby group with a couple of rouge members that get things done for the rest of EvE.

Last election I voted for the Eve-Uni guy. I thought he might do something for the newer players who mostly live in hisec doing their tutorial missions etc. Apparantly he's too busy doing other stuff as I haven't noticed anything from him.
Frying Doom
#6 - 2012-12-10 10:11:37 UTC
Kira Vanachura wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Best bet tell all your corp and friends to vote for a high sec representative in the next election, they that way you are covered for this. Otherwise it will just remain a Null sec lobby group with a couple of rouge members that get things done for the rest of EvE.

Last election I voted for the Eve-Uni guy. I thought he might do something for the newer players who mostly live in hisec doing their tutorial missions etc. Apparantly he's too busy doing other stuff as I haven't noticed anything from him.

According to an article I read he apparently talks within E-Uni a lot, but as to his views on anything I have no idea, rarely heard a peep out of him here. Well actually there are a few that fit into that category, talk else where but not here.

So there views are obviously not for the general EvE populous

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-12-10 10:16:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Kelduum and Issler are your highsec reps, hit them up. If they ignore you or give you answers that are not satisfactory, pass that info on here so other mission runners can find out and act accordingly. You may or may not have voted for them, but they're repping your style of gameplay, hold them to that.

This forum is basically ignored by almost all of the CSM (and even the ones who do venture in here more than once every few months aren't exactly regular fixtures). Eve-mail them and see what you get, and then share the results here, whether they answer you or not.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Frying Doom
#8 - 2012-12-10 11:59:52 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Kelduum and Issler are your highsec reps, hit them up. If they ignore you or give you answers that are not satisfactory, pass that info on here so other mission runners can find out and act accordingly. You may or may not have voted for them, but they're repping your style of gameplay, hold them to that.

This forum is basically ignored by almost all of the CSM (and even the ones who do venture in here more than once every few months aren't exactly regular fixtures). Eve-mail them and see what you get, and then share the results here, whether they answer you or not.

Being that none of the reps campaigned on mission running, Hit them all up and post the results here.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-12-10 12:16:27 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Being that none of the reps campaigned on mission running, Hit them all up and post the results here.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62163&find=unread

Issler campaigned on High Sec PvE among other things.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#10 - 2012-12-10 16:18:23 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
According to an article I read he apparently talks within E-Uni a lot, but as to his views on anything I have no idea . . .

So there views are obviously not for the general EvE populous
You could just... you know. Ask?


raskonalkov wrote:
It would almost would work, removing high sec as an income generation tool. Its just that too many players out of hi sec already have too much cash.
That and the fact that a fairly large proportion of Null players have HiSec mission alts, not that they would admit it in public.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM summit ran out of time...
That wasn't the CSM Summit, it was the "Pre-Summit Town Hall" - the summit is Wednesday through Friday, and most of the CSM is currently on their way there right now.


Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given that high sec, supposedly, is still part of the Eve universe, who on the CSM plans on representing the mission runners who have been devastated by the AI changes this week?

This is really important as this is just phase 1 of CCP's planned changes to the AI, as CCP plans on closing the loophole in the AI that currently allows for the use of drones, albeit extremely carefully..


Where do you hear these things? What "loophole" in the AI? They changed the previous (mess that could hardly be called) AI to use a variant of the Sleeper/Sansha AI which targets stuff about the same size, meaning smaller ships shoot smaller things, and they act much less dumb, switching targets occasionally.

CCP are aware that drones are overly disliked by the AI at present and needs tweaking, and I will be prodding them to fix it as soon as they can.

Now, if you're just worried that you can't multibox AFK L4s in a Domi any more while you go watch TV, then too bad.


Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
From listening the CSM summit, it seems clear this request will fall on deaf ears, and the CSM is encouraging the removal of high sec as an income generation tool.


Dins, seriously, :tinfoil:.

Income generation in HiSec is not being removed. HiSec missions are not being removed. HiSec is not being removed.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#11 - 2012-12-10 17:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Where do you hear these things? What "loophole" in the AI?


The longstanding bug in the AI that wormholers have exploited for some time now:

1) launch drones;

2) wait till drones get aggro;

3) recall drones;

4) launch drones.

Now, the drones will not get aggro'd by the sleepers (in that spawn) at least until they re-evaluate their targets a few minutes later. This behavior has been copied to the mission AI. CCP has called it out as a bug and said that they intend to fix it.

OP's concern is that once that bug is fixed, drones will become very large and very expensive ammunition. I'd say that it's less of a problem for, e.g., the AFK RR sentry Dominix, and more of a problem for a turret BS with a single (or even double) flight of light drones for anti-frigate support. The question is, is this a problem that can be fitted around, or not?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#12 - 2012-12-10 20:23:19 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Given that high sec, supposedly, is still part of the Eve universe, who on the CSM plans on representing the mission runners who have been devastated by the AI changes this week?

This is really important as this is just phase 1 of CCP's planned changes to the AI, as CCP plans on closing the loophole in the AI that currently allows for the use of drones, albeit extremely carefully..


Where do you hear these things? What "loophole" in the AI? They changed the previous (mess that could hardly be called) AI to use a variant of the Sleeper/Sansha AI which targets stuff about the same size, meaning smaller ships shoot smaller things, and they act much less dumb, switching targets occasionally.

CCP are aware that drones are overly disliked by the AI at present and needs tweaking, and I will be prodding them to fix it as soon as they can.

Now, if you're just worried that you can't multibox AFK L4s in a Domi any more while you go watch TV, then too bad.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
From listening the CSM summit, it seems clear this request will fall on deaf ears, and the CSM is encouraging the removal of high sec as an income generation tool.


Dins, seriously, :tinfoil:.

Income generation in HiSec is not being removed. HiSec missions are not being removed. HiSec is not being removed.


errrr.....Kelduum...before you accuse me of Tin Foil Hattery, you want to get your facts straight before castigating me.

Below is the link to CCP Fox Four's statement about the AI defect you say is not there, and we are all just whiners.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421

I will even bolded the part about the loophole you says does not exist:

CCP Fox Four wrote:


Hey guys, I have been a bit silent here and for that I apologize. An update on where we stand with the AI changes:


As it stands we are still going ahead with pushing the change to TQ.
While the change did not make it to the current version on Buckingham I have lowered the drone hate of the AI some more.
While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution.
After Retribution we will be making a change to the AI so that they only consider damage being dealt to them as something to increase a targets threat. That way when you warp in to kill someone running an anomaly shooting the player does not make the NPC hate you.
Also after Retribution, and on the same topic as the previous point, we will be making it so that unless you do something like shoot the NPC or repair a player the NPC won't take your signature radius into account when evaluating targets. Even with the above change without this one frigates would still switch targets.


That statement of a defect and loophole was published over a month ago.
So it appears to be one of two things happening here:

1. You are too busy to keep up with your appointed CSM duties, or you don't care about your constituents and continue to echo the fallacy about AFK mission running put forth by the null sec zealots. BTW, the same Dev Fox Four went on in the same thread about how she has a Domi fit that she could AFK in using the new AI.

2. You NEVER were interested in the high sec constituency, and simply used your position of a 2000 pilot corp to get you elected to the CSM for personal gain. And please don't counter with "I did not gain from my position on the CSM". You already mentioned in another post what that was. I still have contacts in the UNI.

What is truly sad about this is the people who will get hurt the most by this are the noobs, the group that Eve UNI welcomes.
Why don't you ask around how many of your older players are able to take newer players into L4's now for grinding LP, and experience. And since you are still pre-dominantly a high sec organization, the majority of your players rely on missions for income.

BTW, full disclosure:

Kelduum and I have known each other for years, and he once accused me of theft (I was completely exhonerated) of a UNI based group called D6. Funnily enough, every member of D6 laughed at that, but were not laughing when Kelduum impounded 75 billion of cash and items we had built up in living in a wormhole for over a year, then disbanding the group. I had viewing access of the UNI wallets, and complete access to the D6 division within the UNI wallet. We had as much ISK in that wallet as the other 6 combined. Kelduum and his intel guy Kyrlin did not like that too much.
Frying Doom
#13 - 2012-12-10 20:58:52 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Being that none of the reps campaigned on mission running, Hit them all up and post the results here.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62163&find=unread

Issler campaigned on High Sec PvE among other things.

Sorry Snow Axe, I did not see mission running in there, and saying PvE because she ran for hi-sec mining is about as relevant as a null candidate who wants to fix ratting in Null or sleepers in a wormhole.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Frying Doom
#14 - 2012-12-10 21:02:51 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
According to an article I read he apparently talks within E-Uni a lot, but as to his views on anything I have no idea . . .

So there views are obviously not for the general EvE populous
You could just... you know. Ask?

Yes I could ask or alternatively you could communicate on the EvE Online Forums more than well lets face it I only ever hear you to post a snide comment.

I am sure you have communicated wonderfully within EvE-Uni, but unfortunately not enough out to the general populous, hell I could not even say what your view was on anything.

So here is an easy question for you.

How do you feel about the direction CCP is planning for the future of EvE?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-12-10 21:16:19 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Sorry Snow Axe, I did not see mission running in there, and saying PvE because she ran for hi-sec mining is about as relevant as a null candidate who wants to fix ratting in Null or sleepers in a wormhole.


If you're seriously going to say that High Sec PvE doesn't cover mission running at all...wait, you're Frying Doom and I posted something that proved one of your "repeat until people accept it as true" lies wrong. Of course you're going to say they're different. Oh well, thankfully people who can read can see that Issler pretty clearly reps herself as someone who will represent mission running. You don't get to deny that just because she's bad at it.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Frying Doom
#16 - 2012-12-10 21:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sorry Snow Axe, I did not see mission running in there, and saying PvE because she ran for hi-sec mining is about as relevant as a null candidate who wants to fix ratting in Null or sleepers in a wormhole.


If you're seriously going to say that High Sec PvE doesn't cover mission running at all...wait, you're Frying Doom and I posted something that proved one of your "repeat until people accept it as true" lies wrong. Of course you're going to say they're different. Oh well, thankfully people who can read can see that Issler pretty clearly reps herself as someone who will represent mission running. You don't get to deny that just because she's bad at it.

Actually my bad, I am still waking up and missed hi-sec PvE on that list.

I suppose that is also the fact that during the CSM 7 election I don't remember mission running ever coming up, it might have but I can say I don't remember it.

Well either way around I suppose this means the mission runners need to get off their collective buts and vote.

Edit: Seriously I don't know how I missed that. Might be due to my natural dislike of missions. I would rather go ratting in a 1.0 system than mission running, it's that bad.

Also personally I was more interested in the mining fixes than mission running, must say I love my 128h ehp skiff.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-12-10 21:37:20 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Well either way around I suppose this means the mission runners need to get off their collective buts and vote.


Oh absolutely. When I say that someone campaigned on a thing, I wasn't at all trying to suggest they had good ideas or that they'd be good for it, just that they claimed it was a thing they were going to represent. Hence getting people to actually hit them up for information and then passing that information on, so the rest of the game can see whether or not they are what they claim.

A good example of that is Kelduum not knowing about the launch drones-get aggro-recall drones thing (and being kind of a **** about not knowing). I don't even mission or rat (anymore) and I knew that. It's a good message to mission runners or other PvE favoring people not to vote for him since his knowledge on the subject has clearly fallen short of the mark.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#18 - 2012-12-10 21:41:37 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The CSM summit ran out of time before I could ask this question:

Given that high sec, supposedly, is still part of the Eve universe, who on the CSM plans on representing the mission runners who have been devastated by the AI changes this week? This is really important as this is just phase 1 of CCP's planned changes to the AI, as CCP plans on closing the loophole in the AI that currently allows for the use of drones, albeit extremely carefully..

From listening the CSM summit, it seems clear this request will fall on deaf ears, and the CSM is encouraging the removal of high sec as an income generation tool.


I'm a mission runner and these changes haven't "devastated" me. In fact with the missile changes, I've increased my DPS a hell of a lot.

But then I suppose I took the trouble to inform myself of what was happening and made an effort to prepare for it, so I'm not really representative of the demographic you're talking about.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2012-12-10 21:43:10 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Sorry Snow Axe, I did not see mission running in there, and saying PvE because she ran for hi-sec mining is about as relevant as a null candidate who wants to fix ratting in Null or sleepers in a wormhole.


If you're seriously going to say that High Sec PvE doesn't cover mission running at all...wait, you're Frying Doom and I posted something that proved one of your "repeat until people accept it as true" lies wrong. Of course you're going to say they're different. Oh well, thankfully people who can read can see that Issler pretty clearly reps herself as someone who will represent mission running. You don't get to deny that just because she's bad at it.


My favourite one of those is how all the last 6 expansions have been focused on 0.0 and nefing hi-sec.

Frying Doom will be POTUS one day, you mark my words.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#20 - 2012-12-10 22:00:39 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Kelduum and I have known each other for years, and he once accused me of theft (I was completely exhonerated) of a UNI based group called D6. Funnily enough, every member of D6 laughed at that, but were not laughing when Kelduum impounded 75 billion of cash and items we had built up in living in a wormhole for over a year, then disbanding the group.

Dins, as you should know, seeing as you were there at the time, that items were disappearing in the group with no record of who had taken what.

Said assets were therefore moved out of the reach of the D6 members for a couple of days to prevent anyone from trying to make off with them all until you could decide amongst yourselves who was going to take ownership, which the group did, and they were then handed over.


Now...

The post you linked was "Posted: 2012.11.09 13:39", so over a month ago now, well before Retribution launch. Lots of things can change then.

"While we consider the fact that the AI will only shoot your first flight of drones (this is based on specific criteria such as sig radius) and not a second wave to be a defect, we are not publishing the fix with Retribution."

So, its not supposed to happen like that. They will be fixing it at some point in the future. But not immediately, and based on CCPs record when it comes to fixes, it may be a while until this happens. (Unless you're posting from the future, in which case can you send me the minutes from the CSM Summit, which would save me typing them up next week. Also lottery numbers.)

Just how is this "CCP plans on closing the loophole in the AI that currently allows for the use of drones"? Unless you don't realise you can recall your drones any more? You can still use them, they will still do damage, and once they put the fix in which works as they want it to, rats will re-evaluate damage dealers, including drones, but not in a way that obliterates them instantly. That said, its good that you know exactly what CCP are planning to do and how it will affect things before they probably even started working on it.

And I still have no idea where you get: "...the CSM is encouraging the removal of high sec as an income generation tool" from.


Frying Doom wrote:
How do you feel about the direction CCP is planning for the future of EvE?

I haven't yet seen anything posted publicly about the future of EVE I can comment on, barring the recent interviews with Jon Lander, which are fairly content-free for the typical EVE player, beyond "This is just the first step in making it so you don't need a degree in playing Eve Online to be able to play Eve Online", which I'm all for, as long as it doesn't actually change any of the established mechanics and add any kind of "easy mode" to EVE.

As for why I don't post here? It's mainly :angryinternetmen: and content-free ranting. See the OP for reference.
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