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How come null is so empty

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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2012-12-17 02:11:06 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't know if you realize this but people in w-space run anoms everyday in those exact conditions. We know our exits. We know where people are coming from. And we know how to develop intel on our surroundings without the need for local. That nullsec cries at the mere thought shows how immensely carebearish you are. .


It's not about you knowing your own entrances and exits, it's about the rest of the game knowing your entrances and exits because they never change. Anyone who decides they want to daytrip into say, Deklein, can just fire up dotlan and find out not only how to get there (any number of ways), but even where and when any anom running goes on at any point of the day.

The only thing nullsec and wormholes have in common is that anyone can shoot you. Outside of that they might as well be different games.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#302 - 2012-12-17 02:26:09 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Anyone who decides they want to daytrip into say, Deklein, can just fire up dotlan and find out not only how to get there (any number of ways), but even where and when any anom running goes on at any point of the day.

Set destination to VFK.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#303 - 2012-12-17 03:14:06 UTC
null is empty cause the ppl in it are here on the forums qqing how we need to nerf high sec

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2012-12-17 04:38:13 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't know if you realize this but people in w-space run anoms everyday in those exact conditions. We know our exits. We know where people are coming from. And we know how to develop intel on our surroundings without the need for local. That nullsec cries at the mere thought shows how immensely carebearish you are. .


It's not about you knowing your own entrances and exits, it's about the rest of the game knowing your entrances and exits because they never change. Anyone who decides they want to daytrip into say, Deklein, can just fire up dotlan and find out not only how to get there (any number of ways), but even where and when any anom running goes on at any point of the day.

The only thing nullsec and wormholes have in common is that anyone can shoot you. Outside of that they might as well be different games.



Your failure of imagination is disturbing. Our enemies do indeed have methods to find our current location. They're called cloaky probers. And they'll telegraph your position daily. They get in your system and it's almost impossible to get them out. Of course, you with your local will know they're there, when they leave, when they come. So please, give me yet another failed argument as to why no local won't work in null, ya whinebear.

Don't ban me, bro!
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2012-12-17 04:53:03 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't know if you realize this but people in w-space run anoms everyday in those exact conditions. We know our exits. We know where people are coming from. And we know how to develop intel on our surroundings without the need for local. That nullsec cries at the mere thought shows how immensely carebearish you are. .


It's not about you knowing your own entrances and exits, it's about the rest of the game knowing your entrances and exits because they never change. Anyone who decides they want to daytrip into say, Deklein, can just fire up dotlan and find out not only how to get there (any number of ways), but even where and when any anom running goes on at any point of the day.

The only thing nullsec and wormholes have in common is that anyone can shoot you. Outside of that they might as well be different games.



Your failure of imagination is disturbing. Our enemies do indeed have methods to find our current location. They're called cloaky probers. And they'll telegraph your position daily. They get in your system and it's almost impossible to get them out. Of course, you with your local will know they're there, when they leave, when they come. So please, give me yet another failed argument as to why no local won't work in null, ya whinebear.



Are you seriously comparing a dedicated character, in a probing ship, probing down the available exits on a daily basis, and relaying the findings to other players, as being equal to opening the in-game map, checking for NPC kills, and "set destination"?
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2012-12-17 04:55:55 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Your failure of imagination is disturbing. Our enemies do indeed have methods to find our current location. They're called cloaky probers. And they'll telegraph your position daily. They get in your system and it's almost impossible to get them out. Of course, you with your local will know they're there, when they leave, when they come. So please, give me yet another failed argument as to why no local won't work in null, ya whinebear.


Yeah, I'm going to waste more time arguing with someone who's literally tried to equate people manually probing out wormhole entrances with someone taking a 30 second look at a website that pulls regular API updates for regions and systems with multiple unchanging entrance and exit points.

Better just leave it at this and you can just say "lol fukken ____bear noob htfu qq more" again. We'll call it a shortcut to the same destination.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#307 - 2012-12-17 05:20:56 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't know if you realize this but people in w-space run anoms everyday in those exact conditions. We know our exits. We know where people are coming from. And we know how to develop intel on our surroundings without the need for local. That nullsec cries at the mere thought shows how immensely carebearish you are. .


It's not about you knowing your own entrances and exits, it's about the rest of the game knowing your entrances and exits because they never change. Anyone who decides they want to daytrip into say, Deklein, can just fire up dotlan and find out not only how to get there (any number of ways), but even where and when any anom running goes on at any point of the day.

The only thing nullsec and wormholes have in common is that anyone can shoot you. Outside of that they might as well be different games.



Well said. I wonder why some wormhole people can be so obtuse as to not understand the affect of Gates on null sec, a problem they don't have.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#308 - 2012-12-17 05:32:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
I don't know if you realize this but people in w-space run anoms everyday in those exact conditions. We know our exits. We know where people are coming from. And we know how to develop intel on our surroundings without the need for local. That nullsec cries at the mere thought shows how immensely carebearish you are. .

It's not about you knowing your own entrances and exits, it's about the rest of the game knowing your entrances and exits because they never change. Anyone who decides they want to daytrip into say, Deklein, can just fire up dotlan and find out not only how to get there (any number of ways), but even where and when any anom running goes on at any point of the day.

The only thing nullsec and wormholes have in common is that anyone can shoot you. Outside of that they might as well be different games.

Well said. I wonder why some wormhole people can be so obtuse as to not understand the affect of Gates on null sec, a problem they don't have.

Because they're ~elite~ and we're ~skillless noobs~.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#309 - 2012-12-17 05:33:24 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Your failure of imagination is disturbing. Our enemies do indeed have methods to find our current location. They're called cloaky probers. And they'll telegraph your position daily. They get in your system and it's almost impossible to get them out. Of course, you with your local will know they're there, when they leave, when they come. So please, give me yet another failed argument as to why no local won't work in null, ya whinebear.


Yeah, I'm going to waste more time arguing with someone who's literally tried to equate people manually probing out wormhole entrances with someone taking a 30 second look at a website that pulls regular API updates for regions and systems with multiple unchanging entrance and exit points.

Better just leave it at this and you can just say "lol fukken ____bear noob htfu qq more" again. We'll call it a shortcut to the same destination.

lol fukken whbear htfu qq more

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#310 - 2012-12-17 13:40:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
You all answered the question of why nullsec is so empty compared to highsec a while ago while arguing with me:
System improvements don't scale with the number of players.

There is, therefore, a theoretical maximum number of players that nullsec can support.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Why so many in highsec?
The major play feature (missions) scales with the number of players. There is no theoretical limit to the number of players highsec (or lowsec) can support.

It really has nothing to do with risk vs. reward at that point, unless you consider the risk as "will I be able to play the game when I log in" and the reward as "I got to play the game, and maybe even won for today".


No again, that makes it seem like the problem is with null, it isn't.

CCP tried a system where the "theopretical maximum" that null could support was much higher, where you could upgrade any system like any other, and it was a multi-layered disaster for the game even though it was GREAT for the players (like me). I triple boxed the hell out of those anoms and made a fortune.

CCP had to nerf it for the good of the game, then they shadow nerfed it again by upping the isk/ehp of every anom (and it was a nerf, because now each anom takes longer which means fewer escalation/faction spawn chances per da, before you could do a forasken hub in less than 3 minutes, now a REALLY shiney gan of ships takes a minimum of 6 mintues). At least with the old system you could spam the "worthless anoms" and get escalations. That is no longer the case.

what high sec folks don't realize is that null has been nerfed again and again. Some of us simply think it's high sec's turn. The things high sec people have confused for nerfs (like the removale of lvl-5s) were simpyl uninteded bugs to begin with.

What I'm saying is that the fundamental mechanic of highsec is scalable. Besides, highsec has been nerfed multiple times also. Capital ships can't be flown there anymore, in case you missed the memo, and L5 missions were all moved out of highsec.

It is *impossible* to nerf highsec the way people want to because it has to have a scalable mechanic to accommodate players that can't or won't play in nullsec.

Contrariwise, I now realize that nullsec *can't* have a scalable mechanic like highsec has, or it ceases to be a war zone on the scale it is now. This means that by design not everyone can play in nullsec.

Nullsec needs to be "empty" so the few bits that are worth something get fought over.

I must say, now that I understand the problem space better I am quite impressed with CCP's design prowess. They might mess things up sometimes, but on the whole they have indeed designed the game that they claim to have.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#311 - 2012-12-17 14:06:36 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
[quote=Jenn aSide]
What I'm saying is that the fundamental mechanic of highsec is scalable. Besides, highsec has been nerfed multiple times also. Capital ships can't be flown there anymore, in case you missed the memo, and L5 missions were all moved out of highsec.


Can you read English, especially the part where i said the removal of lvl 5s wasn't a nerf, but a bugfix? How did I miss the memo when I mentioned it before you did?

I question your intelligence.
Baron Revis
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#312 - 2012-12-17 14:52:53 UTC
Dominion killed null sec along with CCP's lack of action over RMT/botters which meant everyone has multiple supers.

Gonna be hard to put the genie back in that bottle
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#313 - 2012-12-17 14:59:16 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Buzzy Warstl wrote:

What I'm saying is that the fundamental mechanic of highsec is scalable. Besides, highsec has been nerfed multiple times also. Capital ships can't be flown there anymore, in case you missed the memo, and L5 missions were all moved out of highsec.


Can you read English, especially the part where i said the removal of lvl 5s wasn't a nerf, but a bugfix? How did I miss the memo when I mentioned it before you did?

I question your intelligence.

The difference between a bugfix and a nerf is in the eye of the beholder.

The removal of drone compounds and T1 module drops were bugfixes by the same standard.

The adjustment of the anomalies was a bugfix by the same standard.

If your vision were any narrower I'd wonder if you could see at all.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Pretty GuyYeah
#314 - 2012-12-17 15:02:10 UTC
Null is empty because those who conquer it do it for one reason, and one reason alone: to appear as a huge epeen on a territory map.


If they would actually take on the role of an empire builder and create some content which they were intentend to do, it wouldn't be so empty.

But no.. better nerf hisec!111!11!

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.
Rancor Kane
Geuzen Inc
#315 - 2012-12-17 15:22:33 UTC
Although EVE isn't real life, It might be good to look at real life as in how and why people take risks to move out of their habbitat to unknown coasts.


the two most common reaspons are usualy:

1) To get away from laws and rules the country of origion makes the imigrant feel un apreaciated.
2) To get resourses not available to the homeland.


Point one is reasonably well acomplished in EVE.

Point 2 is where the pain lies.

You don't realy need to leave Highsec, to get everything you need.

and the Difference in Pure Blind and Derelik is the name, resourses are more or less the same. and if there is a difference between 0.0 regions it's ussualy the rats.

And those do sell for high prices, back in the homeland, where the Hic-sec mission runners use them in their chrismas tree ships.

The problem is it's only the faction and ded space modules that really have that.

You want 0.0 and low-sec to get an impulse, revamp the industry, ore's and minarals.

make the asteroids more single minarlel only, devide them over the regions, and make it so that no 3 adjourning regions can provide everything you need.

Infrastructure should be better in highsec, so yeah production should be easier there, also more taxed.

0.0 should be the outpost of adventurers, that can make it with mining and or PI that could be done in a way that isn't alowed in Empire space (maybe due to envioralmental trouble or the like).

there are a several ways that could make 0.0 and low more atractive to move in to.

The only but I have, that I dislike the people yelling higher risk should be higher reward, if that was true it woudn't be a risk.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#316 - 2012-12-17 15:53:01 UTC
Rancor Kane wrote:
Although EVE isn't real life, It might be good to look at real life as in how and why people take risks to move out of their habbitat to unknown coasts.


the two most common reaspons are usualy:

1) To get away from laws and rules the country of origion makes the imigrant feel un apreaciated.
2) To get resourses not available to the homeland.


Point one is reasonably well acomplished in EVE.

Point 2 is where the pain lies.

You don't realy need to leave Highsec, to get everything you need.

and the Difference in Pure Blind and Derelik is the name, resourses are more or less the same. and if there is a difference between 0.0 regions it's ussualy the rats.

And those do sell for high prices, back in the homeland, where the Hic-sec mission runners use them in their chrismas tree ships.

The problem is it's only the faction and ded space modules that really have that.


Yeah, it's not like null sec has zydrine, megacyte, morphite or moon materials, those are readily available in hi sec, I am bathing in Technetium water and using Dysprosium soap right now! Roll

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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2012-12-17 16:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:


Are you seriously comparing a dedicated character, in a probing ship, probing down the available exits on a daily basis, and relaying the findings to other players, as being equal to opening the in-game map, checking for NPC kills, and "set destination"?




Yes, there's nothing like any # of sites that pull api data to give people in w-space intel. Gosh, I just, you know.....that's a really good idea. Someone needs to get working on that....oh wait....they have.

Yeah, I'm not seeing the difference since anyone can set "destination" to the system your wh opens to. Probing a system can take as little as 40s to find a hole leading to k-space. One only need to be familiar with their probing skills & signal strengths. A good prober knows this. As for a dedicated prober, yeah, takes about 5 days to train a decent one. My other two alts on this account are *laugh* dedicated.

Cloaky probers are almost impossible to kill even with a fleet on your entrance, bubbled, drones out and orbiting. But, since you guys have local I doubt you get to see many skilled cloaky pilots.

As for the others that replied, I never said we were elite. You guys just haven't provided an argument yet that isn't full of holes.

Don't ban me, bro!
Rancor Kane
Geuzen Inc
#318 - 2012-12-18 07:44:59 UTC
Vaerah VahrokhaYeah, it's not like null sec has zydrine, megacyte, morphite or moon materials, those are readily available in hi sec, I am bathing in Technetium water and using Dysprosium soap right now! [:roll: wrote:



rather easy to get any where in 0.0, every region has it, and there uses are to speciic.


techmoons is true but again, doesn't realy matter in what region you are in, they are all the same. By scattering the recourses more you'll make the field more dynamic.

If the resources where more spread the big alliances needed to watch eachother more, out of an economic thread.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#319 - 2012-12-18 09:18:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Rancor Kane wrote:
Although EVE isn't real life, It might be good to look at real life as in how and why people take risks to move out of their habbitat to unknown coasts.


the two most common reaspons are usualy:

1) To get away from laws and rules the country of origion makes the imigrant feel un apreaciated.
2) To get resourses not available to the homeland.


Point one is reasonably well acomplished in EVE.

Point 2 is where the pain lies.

You don't realy need to leave Highsec, to get everything you need.

and the Difference in Pure Blind and Derelik is the name, resourses are more or less the same. and if there is a difference between 0.0 regions it's ussualy the rats.

And those do sell for high prices, back in the homeland, where the Hic-sec mission runners use them in their chrismas tree ships.

The problem is it's only the faction and ded space modules that really have that.


Yeah, it's not like null sec has zydrine, megacyte, morphite or moon materials, those are readily available in hi sec, I am bathing in Technetium water and using Dysprosium soap right now! Roll


It's not like a very large proportion of nullsec has none of these things.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#320 - 2012-12-18 09:26:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Malcanis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Rancor Kane wrote:
Although EVE isn't real life, It might be good to look at real life as in how and why people take risks to move out of their habbitat to unknown coasts.


the two most common reaspons are usualy:

1) To get away from laws and rules the country of origion makes the imigrant feel un apreaciated.
2) To get resourses not available to the homeland.


Point one is reasonably well acomplished in EVE.

Point 2 is where the pain lies.

You don't realy need to leave Highsec, to get everything you need.

and the Difference in Pure Blind and Derelik is the name, resourses are more or less the same. and if there is a difference between 0.0 regions it's ussualy the rats.

And those do sell for high prices, back in the homeland, where the Hic-sec mission runners use them in their chrismas tree ships.

The problem is it's only the faction and ded space modules that really have that.


Yeah, it's not like null sec has zydrine, megacyte, morphite or moon materials, those are readily available in hi sec, I am bathing in Technetium water and using Dysprosium soap right now! Roll


It's not like a very large proportion of nullsec has none of these things.


That's a non sequitur to someone claiming "You don't realy need to leave Highsec, to get everything you need."

Words have a meaning, I did not say anywhere "in every corner of null sec", but just "in null sec" as in the whole place.

Which is a reply to to a "whole place" hi sec materials availability statement that is false.


I.e. by going in a proper location in null sec I *can* get the stuff I listed, while there's no proper hi sec location where you can get the same. There's some rare grav anom but they are formed by non ABC and thus mining scordite ends up yielding more and with no probing effort.

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