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How come null is so empty

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Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#281 - 2012-12-15 21:18:37 UTC
I'm not sure... I remember when the first EVE quarterly report came out and they did a breakdown of the different populations in different places as well as pvp behavior and there was some odd numbers in the bunch... something like only 2% of users actively seek out pvp or something.

Actually I remember reading that only 2% of soldiers in combat are responsible for 98% of casualties, so maybe it's just human nature at work.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-12-15 23:49:27 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
Did a 50 jump roam in my caracal and found absolutely 0 people going between gates. Jumped into a busy bottleneck constellation full of ratters and died as expected. Even then though the busiest systems in null have only 60 guys docked and active according to the map. Whats going on? Aren't their people roaming around looking for fights?


Remove local. Problem solved.

The irony about null is their disdain for and abuse of HS. Carebears that they may be, HS dwellers effectively live with no local. What I mean is, local is all but useless as the tool that it is in null. HS dwellers don't station/pos up when someone appears in local. Local is a huge advantage to established corps/alliances against anyone traversing their territories. Remove the advantage and watch the carnage begin. To protect themselves, those that cower, I mean, amass in singular systems would need to spread out. Oh, there'd still be systems where dwellers congregate but, they would need to create more networks of home systems to produce needed intel.

Don't ban me, bro!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#283 - 2012-12-16 01:42:35 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Did a 50 jump roam in my caracal and found absolutely 0 people going between gates. Jumped into a busy bottleneck constellation full of ratters and died as expected. Even then though the busiest systems in null have only 60 guys docked and active according to the map. Whats going on? Aren't their people roaming around looking for fights?


Remove local. Problem solved.

The irony about null is their disdain for and abuse of HS. Carebears that they may be, HS dwellers effectively live with no local. What I mean is, local is all but useless as the tool that it is in null. HS dwellers don't station/pos up when someone appears in local. Local is a huge advantage to established corps/alliances against anyone traversing their territories. Remove the advantage and watch the carnage begin. To protect themselves, those that cower, I mean, amass in singular systems would need to spread out. Oh, there'd still be systems where dwellers congregate but, they would need to create more networks of home systems to produce needed intel.

Are you mad?! Think of the safety of nullbears for gods sake man!!! THE HUMANITY!!!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#284 - 2012-12-16 01:50:53 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Did a 50 jump roam in my caracal and found absolutely 0 people going between gates. Jumped into a busy bottleneck constellation full of ratters and died as expected. Even then though the busiest systems in null have only 60 guys docked and active according to the map. Whats going on? Aren't their people roaming around looking for fights?


Remove local. Problem solved.

The irony about null is their disdain for and abuse of HS. Carebears that they may be, HS dwellers effectively live with no local. What I mean is, local is all but useless as the tool that it is in null. HS dwellers don't station/pos up when someone appears in local. Local is a huge advantage to established corps/alliances against anyone traversing their territories. Remove the advantage and watch the carnage begin. To protect themselves, those that cower, I mean, amass in singular systems would need to spread out. Oh, there'd still be systems where dwellers congregate but, they would need to create more networks of home systems to produce needed intel.


Sure, remove local. Just let us bridge fleets and drop supers and titans into wormholes.

Oh, don't like that idea? Well, it's as dumb as removing local in nullsec.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#285 - 2012-12-16 01:52:26 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Did a 50 jump roam in my caracal and found absolutely 0 people going between gates. Jumped into a busy bottleneck constellation full of ratters and died as expected. Even then though the busiest systems in null have only 60 guys docked and active according to the map. Whats going on? Aren't their people roaming around looking for fights?


Remove local. Problem solved.

The irony about null is their disdain for and abuse of HS. Carebears that they may be, HS dwellers effectively live with no local. What I mean is, local is all but useless as the tool that it is in null. HS dwellers don't station/pos up when someone appears in local. Local is a huge advantage to established corps/alliances against anyone traversing their territories. Remove the advantage and watch the carnage begin. To protect themselves, those that cower, I mean, amass in singular systems would need to spread out. Oh, there'd still be systems where dwellers congregate but, they would need to create more networks of home systems to produce needed intel.

Sure, remove local. Just let us bridge fleets and drop supers and titans into wormholes.

Oh, don't like that idea? Well, it's as dumb as removing local in nullsec.

I'd like no concord in highsec too....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#286 - 2012-12-16 02:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Saul Elsyn wrote:
Actually I remember reading that only 2% of soldiers in combat are responsible for 98% of casualties, so maybe it's just human nature at work.


There's a documentary about this on YouTube. Your percentage is off by abit, from memory is was something around 1 in 10. They went in to detail on how this was a problem in the world wars of last century, where a few soldiers were actually killing the enemy & the rest were loading bullets continously without actually pulling the trigger. Militaries have solved this issue in the last few decades with improved training, bumping the percentage up to somewhere around 78%. It can still be an issue though in modern times & some people are hesitant to take another life, even when theirs is at risk.

On the other end of the spectrum, you have people like this little guy, who fought off around 30 Taliban single-handedly using 400 bullets, a grenade launcher, a bunch of hand-held grenades & his machine-gun tripod.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#287 - 2012-12-16 08:28:36 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
On the other end of the spectrum, you have people like this little guy, who fought off around 30 Taliban single-handedly using 400 bullets, a grenade launcher, a bunch of hand-held grenades & his machine-gun tripod.

"Elite PvP prevails over blobbers"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#288 - 2012-12-16 11:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: psycho freak
eve is a game i play for lulz

everything i do ingame is for my own lulz i dont care about your game play or what you want

so when i log on i i want to kill stuff if i run short of isk i want to make isk as fast as posible to get back to killing stuff

null sec has no apeal what so ever

do i realy want t log on and listen to some jumped up punk on ts bark orders hell no
do i realy care about rules hell no
do i want to blob stuff so allaince leader can get space ritch hell no
do i realy want to live in the back of beyound and be told were i can rat/plex/go for a dump hell no

0.0 is a dump face it the sheep/lemmings can fool them selfs all they want but they are just numbers in a blob

lo-sec best sec

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#289 - 2012-12-16 11:42:15 UTC
Why be in nullsec, with all the danger, consequences and hard work involved when you can just make the some isk afk in highsec carebear haven.

The Tears Must Flow
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2012-12-16 11:46:04 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Why be in nullsec, with all the danger, consequences and hard work involved when you can just make the some isk afk in highsec carebear haven.



if you can make the same isk afk in hisec as your can in running 0.0 missions/plexing8/10+10/10/ farming noms/chaining belt rats

please show me this magic hisec were i can afk this amount of isk

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2012-12-16 12:31:32 UTC
Check http://www.twitch.tv/hydrooo/b/348346881 and go to 3:03:00 .

We want good fights.
Kalamaari
Perkone
Caldari State
#292 - 2012-12-16 13:13:13 UTC
It's because of the giant bats
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#293 - 2012-12-16 16:42:09 UTC
psycho freak wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Why be in nullsec, with all the danger, consequences and hard work involved when you can just make the some isk afk in highsec carebear haven.



if you can make the same isk afk in hisec as your can in running 0.0 missions/plexing8/10+10/10/ farming noms/chaining belt rats

please show me this magic hisec were i can afk this amount of isk


It's called incursions. which you can do 80 to 120 (did 150% in a super shiney fleet doing Vanguards last week, but to be fair that isn't the norm). Those figures DO NOT include the LP condored gives you which you can get 1800-2000 isk per LP for. The only downside is the delay getting into a fleet, but I fly a machariel and never ever have to wait long.

Running missions in NPC null can make you more, but people willbubble camp you into (or out of) a station (which would be moot if you could accept and complete missions outside station, but of course you can't because the same universe with faster than lgiht travel DOESN'T HAVE CELL PHONES).

Plexing 8/10-10/10 plexes gives totally random awards since CCP nerfed them a few years ago. In the Angel 10/10 (for example) you could get 5 OPE boxes that sold for 500 mil to npcs (plex"blue loot" so to speak), so even if the overseer doesn't drop juicy mods/blue prints, you got SOMETHING out of it. No more of that now, it's so random you can't put an isk/hr figure to plexing that makes any sense.

"Farming Noms" is (depending on the ship you use and the race of Rat) about as good or slightly better than high sec incursions isk wise (with rare faction spawns and escalations being bonuses), but overall still inferior when you add incursion LP to the equations.

Chaini9ng Belt rats isn't even worth mentioning and points to a player who either hasn't ever lived in null sec or hasn't been there since 2008.

The one overwhemling thing that makes incursions and to a lesser extent missions better income than anyhting in null sec is the fact that it is extremely difficult to disrupt high sec activities, where as it's really easy to disrupt null sec pve/isk making.

The worst that will happen in high sec is someone pre-loads an incursion site, someone in a logi tries (and usually fails) to withhold reps (they fail because a good FC will demand battleships like my Mach have large reppers and rep drones just in case) or someone will try to suicide gank or some such in a mission. All easily avoidable/mitigatable.

In null sec the only thing a person needs to do to disrupt your isk making is show up, MAYBE launch combat probes if you are in a plex. Sure, you could fit to fight them in the plex, but if its an escalation you're going to get out rather than fight because if you stand and fight you just gave up the location of an escalation that was otherwise uncannable. IE you just handed them your loot.

High Sec people love to cling to the idea that you can make so much isk in null sec as defense against the needed rebalancing of high sec, but they never take the realities of the situation into account. if you buff null sec awards you jsut hurt the game more.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#294 - 2012-12-16 19:04:27 UTC
You all answered the question of why nullsec is so empty compared to highsec a while ago while arguing with me:
System improvements don't scale with the number of players.

There is, therefore, a theoretical maximum number of players that nullsec can support.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Why so many in highsec?
The major play feature (missions) scales with the number of players. There is no theoretical limit to the number of players highsec (or lowsec) can support.

It really has nothing to do with risk vs. reward at that point, unless you consider the risk as "will I be able to play the game when I log in" and the reward as "I got to play the game, and maybe even won for today".

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#295 - 2012-12-16 19:10:23 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
In null sec the only thing a person needs to do to disrupt your isk making is show up, MAYBE launch combat probes if you are in a plex. Sure, you could fit to fight them in the plex, but if its an escalation you're going to get out rather than fight because if you stand and fight you just gave up the location of an escalation that was otherwise uncannable. IE you just handed them your loot.

We need to nerf local, right? That's what everyone was talking about

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#296 - 2012-12-16 23:38:17 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
You all answered the question of why nullsec is so empty compared to highsec a while ago while arguing with me:
System improvements don't scale with the number of players.

There is, therefore, a theoretical maximum number of players that nullsec can support.

It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Why so many in highsec?
The major play feature (missions) scales with the number of players. There is no theoretical limit to the number of players highsec (or lowsec) can support.

It really has nothing to do with risk vs. reward at that point, unless you consider the risk as "will I be able to play the game when I log in" and the reward as "I got to play the game, and maybe even won for today".


No again, that makes it seem like the problem is with null, it isn't.

CCP tried a system where the "theopretical maximum" that null could support was much higher, where you could upgrade any system like any other, and it was a multi-layered disaster for the game even though it was GREAT for the players (like me). I triple boxed the hell out of those anoms and made a fortune.

CCP had to nerf it for the good of the game, then they shadow nerfed it again by upping the isk/ehp of every anom (and it was a nerf, because now each anom takes longer which means fewer escalation/faction spawn chances per da, before you could do a forasken hub in less than 3 minutes, now a REALLY shiney gan of ships takes a minimum of 6 mintues). At least with the old system you could spam the "worthless anoms" and get escalations. That is no longer the case.

what high sec folks don't realize is that null has been nerfed again and again. Some of us simply think it's high sec's turn. The things high sec people have confused for nerfs (like the removale of lvl-5s) were simpyl uninteded bugs to begin with.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#297 - 2012-12-16 23:56:11 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
In null sec the only thing a person needs to do to disrupt your isk making is show up, MAYBE launch combat probes if you are in a plex. Sure, you could fit to fight them in the plex, but if its an escalation you're going to get out rather than fight because if you stand and fight you just gave up the location of an escalation that was otherwise uncannable. IE you just handed them your loot.


"stand and fight" is a stupid tactic because you're going to get dunked

in most of nullsec, even a purifier will make quick work of a paper-thin anom ship unless it has deadspace invulns which suck down so much cap and add so much unnecessary value to your ship that they're simply not worthwhile

but abloobloobloo we need ~~~~CoolnullbearCool~~~~ killmails handed to us on a platter, please make them blind CCP because we suck so badly at PvP

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2012-12-16 23:56:27 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Did a 50 jump roam in my caracal and found absolutely 0 people going between gates. Jumped into a busy bottleneck constellation full of ratters and died as expected. Even then though the busiest systems in null have only 60 guys docked and active according to the map. Whats going on? Aren't their people roaming around looking for fights?


Remove local. Problem solved.

The irony about null is their disdain for and abuse of HS. Carebears that they may be, HS dwellers effectively live with no local. What I mean is, local is all but useless as the tool that it is in null. HS dwellers don't station/pos up when someone appears in local. Local is a huge advantage to established corps/alliances against anyone traversing their territories. Remove the advantage and watch the carnage begin. To protect themselves, those that cower, I mean, amass in singular systems would need to spread out. Oh, there'd still be systems where dwellers congregate but, they would need to create more networks of home systems to produce needed intel.


Sure, remove local. Just let us bridge fleets and drop supers and titans into wormholes.

Oh, don't like that idea? Well, it's as dumb as removing local in nullsec.


Sure, just give us the resources and the ability to build them without sov and we'll be your Huckleberry. Oh, you don't like that idea? Fair fights scare you?

What you're proposing and what I'm proposing are two completely different things. I propose making your space less prone to idle safety. What your proposing is shooting fish in a barrel. Besides, you, sir, can already get into w-space with caps from null. But, it's the rare occurrence that it happens. I've certainly caught more nullsec'ers off guard than have done the opposite.

Don't ban me, bro!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#299 - 2012-12-17 00:01:58 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Sure, just give us the resources and the ability to build them without sov and we'll be your Huckleberry. Oh, you don't like that idea? Fair fights scare you?

What you're proposing and what I'm proposing are two completely different things. I propose making your space less prone to idle safety. What your proposing is shooting fish in a barrel. Besides, you, sir, can already get into w-space with caps from null. But, it's the rare occurrence that it happens. I've certainly caught more nullsec'ers off guard than have done the opposite.


Because nullsec without local doesn't make hunting anom runners the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel? Are you serious?

You understand that unless you're a botter with a fiber connection straight to the cluster, you have basically no chance of escaping when a bomber decloaks, instalocks and tackles you, right? Local doesn't provide any sort of "safety", let alone "idle safety". Any wormhole dweller who thinks that removing local from nullsec would even the playing field in any way whatsoever is misguided because I can't simply set whatever wormhole you live in as a destination and fly there.

Meanwhile, in nullsec, a single dude in system can decloak right next to you, tackle you, light a cyno and bridge whatever quantity of ships he wants. Big difference there.

Until wormhole dwellers are willing to accept unpredictably large hotdrops and supercaps in their little paradise, they are hypocrites for discussing anything regarding local.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2012-12-17 01:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Andski wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Sure, just give us the resources and the ability to build them without sov and we'll be your Huckleberry. Oh, you don't like that idea? Fair fights scare you?

What you're proposing and what I'm proposing are two completely different things. I propose making your space less prone to idle safety. What your proposing is shooting fish in a barrel. Besides, you, sir, can already get into w-space with caps from null. But, it's the rare occurrence that it happens. I've certainly caught more nullsec'ers off guard than have done the opposite.


Because nullsec without local doesn't make hunting anom runners the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel? Are you serious?

You understand that unless you're a botter with a fiber connection straight to the cluster, you have basically no chance of escaping when a bomber decloaks, instalocks and tackles you, right? Local doesn't provide any sort of "safety", let alone "idle safety". Any wormhole dweller who thinks that removing local from nullsec would even the playing field in any way whatsoever is misguided because I can't simply set whatever wormhole you live in as a destination and fly there.

Meanwhile, in nullsec, a single dude in system can decloak right next to you, tackle you, light a cyno and bridge whatever quantity of ships he wants. Big difference there.

Until wormhole dwellers are willing to accept unpredictably large hotdrops and supercaps in their little paradise, they are hypocrites for discussing anything regarding local.



I don't know if you realize this but people in w-space run anoms everyday in those exact conditions. We know our exits. We know where people are coming from. And we know how to develop intel on our surroundings without the need for local. That nullsec cries at the mere thought shows how immensely carebearish you are.

As for setting a destination to a w-space system....you are correct. But then you know where your entrances and exits are with the rare occurence of a wh or two in system. They're clearly marked. Do what we do, put eyes on them. Likewise, your entrances/exits don't randomly change from one hour to the next going from peacefully tranquil systems to nightmarishly dangerous systems filled with more people that you could ever hope to defend against.

Local makes cynoing a necessity in nullsec. In w-space large fleets can move through your system without ever being seen if they're good at what they do and the local inhabitants aren't paying attention. From what I've seen of null, that wouldn't be hard to do except for local.

Give us the ability to build titans and I'd say sure, let your titans in. But if you need that technological superiority to bolster your self-confidence, well then, go cry me a river.

Don't ban me, bro!