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Faction Warfare: Moving Forward.....

First post First post
Author
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#221 - 2011-10-21 19:22:35 UTC
Cal Gin wrote:
My problem with allowing alliances into FW has nothing to do with the uber blobs (we all know thats what it would become) my problem is with the income aspect of it. FW remains one of the best ways to make isk in this game short of being a tycoon. Caldari already has a problem with corps that are there solely for farming missions (including a number of well known alt corps for the bigger alliances). This can easily be seen by the price of Navy Scorps and Scorpians in recent months... Once news about the impending fix to FW was released Navy scorp prices dove 20 to 30 mil and scorpian prices jumped 10 mil, there where even a few times in Jita where there seriously was not a single scorpian for sale... I say if you really wanna fix FW create a mechanic that would kick out the carbears... On paper Caldari milita out numers the other militas by 2k members... in practice we are probably one of the smallest of the militias...

Allowing more people into FW would kill the market far more than it already has esp[ecially since the ships that FW provides are hardly ever used in combat (navy scorps and ravens) in fact the only faction ships seen regularly in FW are the faction frigates, their needs to be a new ship that can be priced just right so that its expensive enough to make isk but low enough that you dont kill your KB every time you loose one, i think Faction BC's would really fill that void since most of our fleets are BC fleets anyways.


P.S. sorry if what i said has already been said.... too many pages to read everything :)


An increase in the population that can supply faction items such as navy scorps, domis, etc will infact drop prices further. Implementing more items (such as the customs office BPCs, other faction ships) available to spend the LP on will help alleviate this though. I was really hoping for that "iterative cruiser balance" to fix a lot of the navy faction cruisers (the lower teired ones in particular) which would make them appealing, giving them more value.
Wa'roun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2011-10-21 19:35:54 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys
One thing we might be able to do very easily is remove the faction NPCs, letting you freely travel in other factions space. How would you guys feel about that change? I've always found it a bit sad that we've isolated FW in low-sec when it could be done on a much larger scale.


I'm not in favor of such a change. Currently Highsec is relativly safe when you are in fw. Removing faction police would also remove a safe haven that new fw pilots need when they don't want to pvp or need to replace some losses.


+1
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#223 - 2011-10-21 19:54:32 UTC
Super Chair wrote:
Cal Gin wrote:
My problem with allowing alliances into FW has nothing to do with the uber blobs (we all know thats what it would become) my problem is with the income aspect of it. FW remains one of the best ways to make isk in this game short of being a tycoon. Caldari already has a problem with corps that are there solely for farming missions (including a number of well known alt corps for the bigger alliances). This can easily be seen by the price of Navy Scorps and Scorpians in recent months... Once news about the impending fix to FW was released Navy scorp prices dove 20 to 30 mil and scorpian prices jumped 10 mil, there where even a few times in Jita where there seriously was not a single scorpian for sale... I say if you really wanna fix FW create a mechanic that would kick out the carbears... On paper Caldari milita out numers the other militas by 2k members... in practice we are probably one of the smallest of the militias...

Allowing more people into FW would kill the market far more than it already has esp[ecially since the ships that FW provides are hardly ever used in combat (navy scorps and ravens) in fact the only faction ships seen regularly in FW are the faction frigates, their needs to be a new ship that can be priced just right so that its expensive enough to make isk but low enough that you dont kill your KB every time you loose one, i think Faction BC's would really fill that void since most of our fleets are BC fleets anyways.


P.S. sorry if what i said has already been said.... too many pages to read everything :)


An increase in the population that can supply faction items such as navy scorps, domis, etc will infact drop prices further. Implementing more items (such as the customs office BPCs, other faction ships) available to spend the LP on will help alleviate this though. I was really hoping for that "iterative cruiser balance" to fix a lot of the navy faction cruisers (the lower teired ones in particular) which would make them appealing, giving them more value.



Yep other than the stabber the cruisers really have no place. For pve there are better ships, such as the pirate ships. For pvp they are too expensive for what they add. I'm not exactly sure how to make them more appealing but they definitely need some sort of boost. Maybe more speed. Other lp items could be balanced a bit so they have some sort of role.


I don't have a problem with pvpers running the missions and buying stuff to get blown up in fw. I just don't like it when people join fw *only* for the missions. IMO that is the problem and the solution should be tailored to that problem. I think they should just say something like you can only do 40 missions until you get a certain number of vp for pvp kills.

Making missions so you have to join a fleet to run them is not tailored to the problem.

Making them more challenging so they can't easilly be done by an alt is also a good idea. I think that is more of a problem for the caldari and Minmatar militias because they have the easiest missions to run.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Shalee Lianne
Banana-Republic.
Collateral Murder.
#224 - 2011-10-21 20:18:21 UTC
I keep seeing how CVA and other alliances should be allowed into Militia because they are already supporters of it.

Since when?

I have been in militia my entire EVE time flying with Amarr and I've heard of CVA helping once. As far as I can tell, they don't really care about militia, they have their own problems. I know in a roleplay sense they do care, but that is just words, it means little out on the war front.

The militia is supposed to act like a loose alliance anyhow, so I personally don't see the reason to allow alliances to join.

Alliances have different goals than militia corps do, and I really don't want to see those huge alliances coming out to farm kills and missions then leaving at a whim.

Just my two cents.

Also, I think it is a great idea to get rid of the NPC militia corps. There are countless new players who end up joining the militias that way without having a clue to what it is about. They see a shiny button and press it, tada they are in an insta war and haven't an inkling of what is going on.

At that point, they are asking in militia channel and they are most likely not getting the warmest of welcomes because most of the vet FWers are thinking they are spies. They aren't getting help, they aren't getting picked up for fleets, they aren't learning anything really but how to troll.



http://amarrian.blogspot.com/  ~ Roleplay blog. http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#225 - 2011-10-21 21:16:15 UTC
Shalee Lianne wrote:

I have been in militia my entire EVE time flying with Amarr and I've heard of CVA helping once. As far as I can tell, they don't really care about militia, they have their own problems. I know in a roleplay sense they do care, but that is just words, it means little out on the war front.


Agreed, indeed. We have the exact same issue with UK and EM. We are approached by them with requests for mutual blues, and its a difficult thing to agree to (though most minnie FW corps do) because they dont spend time in our warzone, even though we'll roam out through 0.0 looking for action.

The result is basically that the alliances gain protection from us shooting them in nullsec, but we receive nothing in return. And no corp that takes its pew pew seriously enjoys arbitrarily shortening its target list, even for roleplay reasons.

Here's my speculation on the reason why. In 0.0, standings are irrelevant, you can shoot whoever and nothing changes. But when CVA comes to lowsec, and starts firing on Minnie Militia, they are treated as criminals by CONCORD, and eventually they wouldn't be able to hang out in their own faction's highsec space.

If that were the case, I'd never come to our warzone to help our militia "friends" either. I think CVA and UK/EM would love to assist the militia in principle, but the mechanics make this impossible to sustain for any period of time.

Perhaps a representative from those Alliances could chime in here if they're reading list, I don't mean to insult them or pass judgement, this is merely my speculation based on what I've seen play out as well.


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#226 - 2011-10-21 21:26:08 UTC
Shalee Lianne wrote:
The militia is supposed to act like a loose alliance anyhow, so I personally don't see the reason to allow alliances to join....




I think this is a good point. And yeah it seems pandemic legion cares more about faction war than cva if actions speak louder than words.

But wouldn't it be hard for them to start shooting minmatar militia in low sec and killing their sec status with their anti-piracy policy? I'm not sure what their rules are. But it may be that they can't really do much to help because they are not allowed to. Under the current mechanics most of the third parties that war dec fw corps are seen more like leeches than help. Its not really their fault though. They may want to join in but now they can only war dec single corps.

As far as the npc corp I think it serves a purpose. Rather than trying to keep track of a hundred small no name corps it makes sense to group everyone that is new, or in between corps, into the npc corp.


On the other hand, people who are brand new to low sec probably shoud have a corp that they can ask questions of.

Perhaps the militia should act more like an alliance and make a faq about low sec, and faction war mechanics, as well as some other things about joining fw. It could be a decent web page with some youtube videos imbedded. That way whenever someone new shows up in militia chat instead of trying to explain stuff over the chat channel (which is frustrating) we could give a link to this web page. I imagine many corps have this already in the form of many forum posts.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#227 - 2011-10-21 21:44:22 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Perhaps the militia should act more like an alliance and make a faq about low sec, and faction war mechanics, as well as some other things about joining fw. It could be a decent web page with some youtube videos imbedded. That way whenever someone new shows up in militia chat instead of trying to explain stuff over the chat channel (which is frustrating) we could give a link to this web page. I imagine many corps have this already in the form of many forum posts.


We have to have something for the new people to do besides learn PvP by being tossed in with Veteran pilots and learning by monkey-see-monkey-do. New players should have a role to play besides tackle and cannon / troll fodder, even if its just having some working plexes that they can run in small gangs of cheap ships, even if the veterans are doing their own thing in the larger plexes.

That's how it used to be - younger corps taking on smaller plexes in frigs/cruisers, older corps taking the lead on larger plexes in BS fleets with tech 2 ship support. There was a variety of things to participate it, and new pilots felt relevant. Thats how it was when I started - but the plexing got old real fast, and it wasn't long before hardly anyone in militias participated anymore, because half of FW pilots moved to nullsec out of boredom, and the remaining group graduated into advanced enough ships that small plexes were not worth the bother.

I hate to write a giant media site promoting FW in its current state. There isn't much to say other than there's some great pilots, who have a static war, and run missions, but there isn't any GOALS to work for or strategic objectives. The only advice I can give to newbies I can give right here - grab some rifters and ruptures, get kills on your own somehow, someway, for long enough till a corp like ours is satisfied you're not a spai and lets you in. Than, the only thing to do is hop in fleets, make mistakes, take correction well, and slowly learn the ropes as you get better. But dont expect much except the same kind of roaming much like the pirate corps do. For a lot of us the PvP is fun enough, but for others its not enough to feel like you're accomplishing anything.

But if FW is indeed "fixed" and theres some new rewards and objectives, than hell yes, there will be a host of people willing to contribute to promoting the **** out of it.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#228 - 2011-10-21 21:58:39 UTC
Attn CCP: Treating pirate faction ships as T2 ships for plex entrance requirements will do more for FW than anything else you implement because it will make T1 frigs and T1 cruisers (the ships newer players fly) viable in minor and medium plexes. Help ease the transition of younger players into FW!
Shalee Lianne
Banana-Republic.
Collateral Murder.
#229 - 2011-10-21 22:05:13 UTC
You're right Hans. When I first started I felt relevant in my little punisher out running the small plexes back in the day.
http://amarrian.blogspot.com/  ~ Roleplay blog. http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/ ~ Faction War blog.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#230 - 2011-10-21 22:08:57 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Attn CCP: Treating pirate faction ships as T2 ships for plex entrance requirements will do more for FW than anything else you implement because it will make T1 frigs and T1 cruisers (the ships newer players fly) viable in minor and medium plexes. Help ease the transition of younger players into FW!


Good call bubba!!

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#231 - 2011-10-21 22:16:40 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Attn CCP: Treating pirate faction ships as T2 ships for plex entrance requirements will do more for FW than anything else you implement because it will make T1 frigs and T1 cruisers (the ships newer players fly) viable in minor and medium plexes. Help ease the transition of younger players into FW!


^ this
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#232 - 2011-10-21 23:32:49 UTC
Wa'roun wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys
One thing we might be able to do very easily is remove the faction NPCs, letting you freely travel in other factions space. How would you guys feel about that change? I've always found it a bit sad that we've isolated FW in low-sec when it could be done on a much larger scale.


I'm not in favor of such a change. Currently Highsec is relativly safe when you are in fw. Removing faction police would also remove a safe haven that new fw pilots need when they don't want to pvp or need to replace some losses.


+1


Safe? Shocked

I say pull the NPCs and all the PvE missions out of factions.

What is so wrong with a PvP only activity?

I'm an American, English is my second language...

Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#233 - 2011-10-22 00:16:53 UTC
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
I think i have a idea with help. From a amarr pilot in local lol. Sabotage :)

If we make the Plex's as mini incursion type things (were u would need a certain amount of pilots per each size)
Make sure the rats are smart like the incursion rats.
U split the LP the same as incisions. So if 2 fleets are in one plex only the most helpful fleet gets reward.


Everyone fights for the plex's
Each side would be alot more active to get the LP
Keep the gates how they are to filter ship types.


EASY FIX
We have something to fight for
Alot of pilots would join and be FORCED to fight for there isk.
Good start
EASY FIX

Soundwave mail me ur ideas

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.

Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#234 - 2011-10-22 00:22:14 UTC
Shalee Lianne wrote:


Also, I think it is a great idea to get rid of the NPC militia corps. There are countless new players who end up joining the militias that way without having a clue to what it is about. They see a shiny button and press it, tada they are in an insta war and haven't an inkling of what is going on.

At that point, they are asking in militia channel and they are most likely not getting the warmest of welcomes because most of the vet FWers are thinking they are spies. They aren't getting help, they aren't getting picked up for fleets, they aren't learning anything really but how to troll.





If we took away the NCP corps we could manage the miltia's allot better.
Also LP farmers would find it hard witch is good.
EASY FIX

Like!

Anyway it dosnt matter what CCP do there will always be whiners. Non of us can agree on anything so we just going to have to hope for the best. And adapt to whatever changes happen.


Also Were are the Faction Battlecrusiers?

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.

FlyingSpoonyBadger
Perkone
Caldari State
#235 - 2011-10-22 00:49:21 UTC
My two cents:

1. Remove NPC corps definately a good idea it allows the militia's to more effectively manage their own militia.

2. Generate many more plexes make them give you LP for running them and just scrub the missions completely.

3. Vastly increase the LP for getting kills and award the LP evenly across the killers/gangs not just to the top damage dealer.

4. Removing the NPC navies.... This has some potential, I like the idea of widening the scope for combat hugely I get tired of roaming the same systems over and over. It gives people the chance to run gangs without capitol or pirate interference and it reduces the strain on the server generating all the NPC response.

5. Give occupancy some meaning again another good idea, station guns maybe free repairs definately. I dont like the idea of gate guns getting involved though. Perhaps some jump bridges into friendly systems? NPC ones that allow system controlling faction to use them maybe with a small charge or perhaps they could just be fuelld by the occupying forces?

6. Putting faction frigates and cruisers into the same bracket as T2 ships of the same size for plexes is a must I reckon.

7. An alert system for when plexes are being conquered is good, but we have to have the ability to turn off the notifications!

8. Like it or not RP is an element of the FW game, some "events" need to be included, e.g. NPC navies forcibly settling systems or clashing in low sec would be good.


Good thread, nice work getting it rolling Hanz.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#236 - 2011-10-22 04:05:16 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


I hate to write a giant media site promoting FW in its current state. ...


I agree. CCP has to iterate on the fw mechanics first. Once they get them down we could do something decent. In the meantime I think we are pretty limitted to just the low sec mechanics.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Leon Razor
Measure Zero
#237 - 2011-10-22 07:41:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Leon Razor
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

Great feedback in this thread. I'm taking a few notes and getting a few ideas.

One thing we might be able to do very easily is remove the faction NPCs, letting you freely travel in other factions space. How would you guys feel about that change? I've always found it a bit sad that we've isolated FW in low-sec when it could be done on a much larger scale.


You could remove / balance faction NPCs based on sec status. So maybe 0.5 has no NPCs but 1.0 has a lot. That way militia will have some hisec places to PvP, and there will still be safe hisec systems.

Edit: If sec status doesn't make sense, systems could be given a separate faction "sec status".
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
#238 - 2011-10-22 08:59:49 UTC
Ok, i have one suggestion and one question/suggestion.

Introduce the pirate factions, and add a few more low sec regions for them to live in. It would be awesome if you couldnt travel from amarr space to caldari space etc without going through some pirate faction's low sec space.

second thing, what the heck is the logic behind letting members of the oposit faction being able to dock in the stations belonging to the ppl they are at war with? it makes no sense at all, and if changed, would actually force more pvp to happenBear

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
#239 - 2011-10-22 19:35:44 UTC
Bump back up

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#240 - 2011-10-23 00:09:19 UTC
Take away NPC corps
Take away NPC Navys
Make plex's worth fighting over. Make them more like mini incursions.

Should all be fairly easy

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.