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Highsec "Carebear" representation from the CSM?

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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2012-12-12 06:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Frying Doom wrote:

No what I want to say is that the mineral requirements for

--highsec frigate loss contribution to EVE economy --

Is not insignificant

Yes it is
Frying Doom
#262 - 2012-12-12 06:24:24 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Is not insignificant

Yes it is

Would you like to donate that insignificant number of ships to me as they are obviously of no significance?

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2012-12-12 06:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Frying Doom wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Is not insignificant

Yes it is

Would you like to donate that insignificant number of ships to me as they are obviously of no significance?

Total tritanium needed to build 3,127,159 frigates, using Condor as base (ME1) - 6,876,622,641
Total tritanium needed to build two Erebuses (ME1) - 7,199,833,200

http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15418484
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15417820
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15408634

So that means nullsec this week alone in terms of resource consumption went through an 8 year total of highsec NPC frigate losses, not including anything that died this week smaller then a titan (lol)

Then again, these are the really significant highsec losses according to Frying Doom... who am I to argue?
Frying Doom
#264 - 2012-12-12 06:48:07 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Is not insignificant

Yes it is

Would you like to donate that insignificant number of ships to me as they are obviously of no significance?

Total tritanium needed to build 3,127,159 frigates, using Condor as base (ME1) - 6,876,622,641
Total tritanium needed to build two Erebuses (ME1) - 7,199,833,200

http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15418484
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15417820
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15408634

So that means nullsec this week alone in terms of resource consumption went through an 8 year total of highsec NPC frigate losses.

Then again, these are the really significant highsec losses according to Frying Doom... who am I to argue?

I completely agree with you.

Null sec should not have Hi-sec minerals seeded into Null space as it will just cause a massive expansion in Titan numbers.

Good call on that. You are right that titans are too easy to build with hi-sec minerals and that without having to transport them from hi-sec they would be everywhere in no time.

Oh but you did forget to quote the tritanium usage for the hundreds of thousands of battleships destroyed in Hi-sec.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#265 - 2012-12-12 06:50:41 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

I completely agree with you.

Null sec should not have Hi-sec minerals seeded into Null space as it will just cause a massive expansion in Titan numbers.

Good call on that. You are right that titans are too easy to build with hi-sec minerals and that without having to transport them from hi-sec they would be everywhere in no time.

Oh but you did forget to quote the tritanium usage for the hundreds of thousands of battleships destroyed in Hi-sec.

When in doubt, scream logical fallacies, that always works.
Frying Doom
#266 - 2012-12-12 06:56:41 UTC
KrakizBad wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I completely agree with you.

Null sec should not have Hi-sec minerals seeded into Null space as it will just cause a massive expansion in Titan numbers.

Good call on that. You are right that titans are too easy to build with hi-sec minerals and that without having to transport them from hi-sec they would be everywhere in no time.

Oh but you did forget to quote the tritanium usage for the hundreds of thousands of battleships destroyed in Hi-sec.

When in doubt, scream logical fallacies, that always works.

Except he just showed in his words "an insignificant amount of tritanium" to make a titan.

Sounds like the best reason I have ever heard to keep hi-sec minerals out of Null.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2012-12-12 06:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Frying Doom wrote:

I completely agree with you.

Null sec should not have Hi-sec minerals seeded into Null space as it will just cause a massive expansion in Titan numbers.

Good call on that. You are right that titans are too easy to build with hi-sec minerals and that without having to transport them from hi-sec they would be everywhere in no time.
I'm glad I've won you over Doom. Now, the best way of doing what you prescribe is to limit highsec's manufacturing capacity to a level where it can replenish its own needs while not able to handle all regions' industrial needs - in this case, mineral compression for building titans. I detailed this on the previous page, which you now retroactively happily agree with.

Quote:
Oh but you did forget to quote the tritanium usage for the hundreds of thousands of battleships destroyed in Hi-sec

You're right. Since I consider battleships 'serious losses'. Even though that total was actually all battleships lost to NPCs everywhere and not just highsec, I'll add it to the total because I feel generous.


PVP Losses by Secstatus
High Sec - 1,974,022
Null Sec - 7,061,988

.....

Adjusted Losses by Secstatus
High Sec - 2,235,930
Null Sec - 7,061,988


there
Frying Doom
#268 - 2012-12-12 07:11:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

I completely agree with you.

Null sec should not have Hi-sec minerals seeded into Null space as it will just cause a massive expansion in Titan numbers.

Good call on that. You are right that titans are too easy to build with hi-sec minerals and that without having to transport them from hi-sec they would be everywhere in no time.
I'm glad I've won you over Doom. Now, the best way of doing what you prescribe is to limit highsec's manufacturing capacity to a level where it can replenish its own needs while not able to handle all regions' industrial needs - in this case, mineral compression for building titans. I detailed this on the previous page, which you now retroactively happily agree with.

Quote:
Oh but you did forget to quote the tritanium usage for the hundreds of thousands of battleships destroyed in Hi-sec

You're right. Since I consider battleships 'serious losses'. Even though that total was actually all battleships lost to NPCs everywhere and not just highsec, I'll add it to the total because I feel generous.


PVP Losses by Secstatus
High Sec - 1,974,022
Null Sec - 7,061,988

.....

Adjusted Losses by Secstatus
High Sec - 2,235,930
Null Sec - 7,061,988


there

Funny how frigate losses where mostly in high sec but the same PVE losses for battleships you say are everywhere lol

But I will agree with you sort of on hi-sec manufacturing. I personally feel all NPC facilities should stink in comparison to one put up and paid for by players.

I still think it would be a mistake to seed to many hi-sec minerals in Null, but manufacturing, research, refining and the rest should all perform better in a player built facility but on that I do think refineries should be anchorable in hi-sec if the corp has the standing. So they pay for the right to get 100% refine. Not just oh look its an NPC facility that I don't pay for so I can get 25% better than the best player built has to offer.

The fact that Null is high secs biggest customer is also the reason to limit the availability of Hi-sec minerals in Null, you remove Hi-secs biggest market it will just collapse.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Amarra Mandalin
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#269 - 2012-12-12 07:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Maybe you can show me I am missing something
High Sec lost 6,317,926 ships to PVE
Null Lost 568,353 ships to PVE

Between the 2 areas as well as Lo-sec and Wormholes, a total of 1,738,142 Frigates were killed.
so you took out a the complete NPC kills of Hi sec being 6,317,926 ships and Nulls 568,353 kills to show that Null losses more ships
Incorrect. My point was to say Null loses more resources (in the form of goods and ships). 17 out of the top 20 ships killed by NPCs were frigates, noobships and destroyers; a trend that does not follow with PVP losses, which start with the Hurricane (not a frigate). If you want to claim that battlecruisers do not consume more or an equal amount of resources as frigates, feel free.

Quote:
So facts are facts but saying a frigate is the most a hi-sec dweller will risk is kind of crap as most PvE is lvl 3s and 4s done in Hi-sec and you cant do them in a frigate.
The two statements are not mutually exclusive: Once a highsec player has gained the ability to do lvl3 missions, he has passed the biggest source of highsec NPC lossmails - level 2 missions.

Or, as Diagoras himself says about the source of NPC kills: "And what do NPCs manage to destroy? Well, from the looks of things, the tutorials are killing quite a few players:"

Quote:
So no Null is an import user of minerals but not the be all and end all of the game in any respect.
The majority of everything produced in EVE is ultimately consumed by way of nullsec players shooting other nullsec players. According to you and Dinsdale's metric of including NPC kills, the truest risk in highsec is apparently found within the highsec tutorials.


Do you have a breakdown of where these frigs where killed, such as LV 3-4 mission hubs? I presume a good number of these losses are ninja looters and "scouts" and not missioners. How many Indy, Faction ships and T3s are killed in High vs. Null? I don't doubt Null has more, -- with perhaps the exception of Indy -- but do doubt that High sec numbers are insignificant.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#270 - 2012-12-12 07:14:04 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
You are right that titans are too easy to build with hi-sec minerals and that without having to transport them from hi-sec they would be everywhere in no time


Because no one likes to kill CSAA's

.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#271 - 2012-12-12 07:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Now, the best way of doing what you prescribe is to limit highsec's manufacturing capacity to a level where it can replenish its own needs while not able to handle all regions' industrial needs - in this case, mineral compression for building titans.


Nullsec should never be in the position of being able to replace titans easily.

Mineral compression should be removed from the game, while boosting player-driven industry is important it can be boosted through means other than magically making 1000m3 of tritanium take up only 40m3.

Player-driven industry needs better refining facilities to start with. it would be really nice if POS refineries could be adjusted even before any "POS dead horse project" gets underway. Reduce the refining/reprocessing time to minutes instead of hours, increase the capacity, allow output and input from corporate hangars, allow mixed loads, allow reprocessing of modules and ships, etc.

Then modify the NPC refineries to work the same way: cycle times for your load, so refineries become another assembly line just like research labs, assembly lines, invention labs, etc. You queue your refining or reprocessing job up with everyone else. Then the NPCs start charging more when their refinery utilisation remains high for an extended period.

Then (with the POS dead horse project) open up POS facilities to the public and allow usage fees to be billed to the character's wallet instead of their corporation's wallet.

These are small changes that will make a huge difference to the industrial landscape, without hardwiring the galaxy to only allow T1 in hisec, T2 in null, etc.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#272 - 2012-12-12 07:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Frying Doom wrote:
Quote:

there

Funny how frigate losses where mostly in high sec but the same PVE losses for battleships you say are everywhere lol

But I will agree with you sort of on hi-sec manufacturing. I personally feel all NPC facilities should stink in comparison to one put up and paid for by players.

I still think it would be a mistake to seed to many hi-sec minerals in Null, but manufacturing, research, refining and the rest should all perform better in a player built facility but on that I do think refineries should be anchorable in hi-sec if the corp has the standing. So they pay for the right to get 100% refine. Not just oh look its an NPC facility that I don't pay for so I can get 25% better than the best player built has to offer.

The fact that Null is high secs biggest customer is also the reason to limit the availability of Hi-sec minerals in Null, you remove Hi-secs biggest market it will just collapse.

I suppose it really depends on what your vision of nullsec is - if it 's a game where big groups clash in titanic battles for space dominance, 0.0 needs to wean itself off of simply shifting its industrial requirements onto highsec alts, and industrialists desperately need incentives to wean itself off of highsec's extremely convenient and often times superior mining/manufacturing resources and take part in these big conflicts directly, instead of at opposing ends of a long impersonal resource supply chain. And part of that localizing of industry requires making mining basic, essential ingredients for construction like low-end minerals and ice enticing to do in nullsec over high, otherwise the whole endeavor is pointless.

If your vision of 0.0 is a game where you sneak off alone or in a small team to the distant hinterlands in search of the big payoff, the rarest of ore, the best officer module, then venture back past pirates and danger to sell your wares in Jita with a story to tell, then by all means the lack of low-ends in 0.0 should continue. Nerfing intel, weakening gatecamps, would all help in achieving these dangerous convoys. The problem with this however is that the scenario I just described hasn't truly existed in nullsec for years and years. If it ever did exist, it didn't survive long past the introduction of alliances in 2004. Which was a response to informal alliances that already existed between ancient nullsec corporations anyway. CCP since 2004 has abandoned this old vision of nullsec and instead introduced 'wormhole space back int 2010, which came closer towards this vision then nullsec ever did.

The problem is that while CCP has decided to move on to wormholes to carry out its old vision of a dangerous area full of small groups looking for big payoffs in mostly empty space, they never bothered to transition nullsec out of that original paradigm (and all the restrictions and limitations on growth) towards the nullsec reality of player-generated sovereign empires clashing for space and resources: Most 0.0 space and resources aren't worth the effort of taking, limits on player-built infrastructure prevent true empires from being built. At present nullsec empires are more extremely sophisticated armed mining camps, aggressively controlling a coveted resource.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#273 - 2012-12-12 08:53:27 UTC
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
"put level 5 missions back in highsec " - Nope. The whole point of them is to drive people out of high sec.


Encourage them to leave the "safety" of high sec, you mean. "Driving people out" doesn't work, they cry a river, then switch to a less profitable activity. It doesn't help that low and null sec are perceived as "instant death unless you have half the Goon fleet keeping you safe".

Problem is, most high sec dwellers won't even consider null sec simply because they don't want to get involved with large coalitions and their indentured servitude, either because their corps aren't big enough or because they prefer to play solo. They look for areas of space where they can live under the radar - for instance, Wormhole space.

In a way, Nicolo above is right - driving people out of high sec won't help the null sec. In order to do that, you need to reinvigorate and rebuild low and null to a point where tactics, strategy, goals and not the size of your blob and the amount of your defenses matter. Until then, null will remain a playground for large coalitions, whether high sec content produces decent isk or not.
Frying Doom
#274 - 2012-12-12 08:55:36 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Quote:

there

Funny how frigate losses where mostly in high sec but the same PVE losses for battleships you say are everywhere lol

But I will agree with you sort of on hi-sec manufacturing. I personally feel all NPC facilities should stink in comparison to one put up and paid for by players.

I still think it would be a mistake to seed to many hi-sec minerals in Null, but manufacturing, research, refining and the rest should all perform better in a player built facility but on that I do think refineries should be anchorable in hi-sec if the corp has the standing. So they pay for the right to get 100% refine. Not just oh look its an NPC facility that I don't pay for so I can get 25% better than the best player built has to offer.

The fact that Null is high secs biggest customer is also the reason to limit the availability of Hi-sec minerals in Null, you remove Hi-secs biggest market it will just collapse.

I suppose it really depends on what your vision of nullsec is - if it 's a game where big groups clash in titanic battles for space dominance, 0.0 needs to wean itself off of simply shifting its industrial requirements onto highsec alts, and industrialists desperately need incentives to wean itself off of highsec's extremely convenient and often times superior mining/manufacturing resources and take part in these big conflicts directly, instead of at opposing ends of a long impersonal resource supply chain. And part of that localizing of industry requires making mining basic, essential ingredients for construction like low-end minerals and ice enticing to do in nullsec over high, otherwise the whole endeavor is pointless.

If your vision of 0.0 is a game where you sneak off alone or in a small team to the distant hinterlands in search of the big payoff, the rarest of ore, the best officer module, then venture back past pirates and danger to sell your wares in Jita with a story to tell, then by all means the lack of low-ends in 0.0 should continue. Nerfing intel, weakening gatecamps, would all help in achieving these dangerous convoys. The problem with this however is that the scenario I just described hasn't truly existed in nullsec for years and years. If it ever did exist, it didn't survive long past the introduction of alliances in 2004. Which was a response to informal alliances that already existed between ancient nullsec corporations anyway. CCP since 2004 has abandoned this old vision of nullsec and instead introduced 'wormhole space back int 2010, which came closer towards this vision then nullsec ever did.

The problem is that while CCP has decided to move on to wormholes to carry out its old vision of a dangerous area full of small groups looking for big payoffs in mostly empty space, they never bothered to transition nullsec out of that original paradigm (and all the restrictions and limitations on growth) towards the nullsec reality of player-generated sovereign empires clashing for space and resources: Most 0.0 space and resources aren't worth the effort of taking, limits on player-built infrastructure prevent true empires from being built. At present nullsec empires are more extremely sophisticated armed mining camps, aggressively controlling a coveted resource.

While I do think that there is room to transition Null sec into a realm of alliances of more self sufficient little empires but for this to happen and the transition to be meaningful.


  • Power projection needs to be nerfed
  • Jump drives need to be nerfed to make Null more its own empires than just a part of Hi-sec
  • Titan bridges frankly need to be scrapped
  • Sov needs to be based on usage rather than isk
  • Top down financing needs to be removed completely
  • Moon mining needs to to an active revenue generator


This will allow multiple smaller alliances get a foot hold as well as stopping people being suddenly obliterated by hundreds of ships bridging in.

Also with the jump drive nerf it will make people more focused on their own empires rather than running to hi-sec for everything.

Sov based on usage for keeping it and upgrading it means there will not just be massive piles of empty space.

As to balancing this is the hardest part, as Null is not the most dangerous space so it must be a risk vs reward above hi and lo secs but below what solo and teams get in WHs. getting that balance will be the hardest thing or we will just be back at square one.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
AndromacheDarkstar
Integrated Insterstellar Holdings
#275 - 2012-12-12 10:47:54 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Its not really fair that those of use that choose to take advantage of all the game has to offer have to work considerably harder to achieve the same level of reward.


And that is precisely what high sec players are saying about null.
We high sec players have to work much much harder for the same rewards lavished on null sec, even if you factor in this new term of 2012 "risk/rewards", created by null sec propagandists to work with the other popular term "rebalance high sec".

Modern politics works the same way.
If a lie is repeated long enough, and widespread enough, then the more gullible actually start to believe it.
Fox News operates this way.

And once the lie is believed, then anything can be justified as a solution to that lie.

I may hate people like goons and their acolytes with every fibre of my being, but that does not mean I don't respect my enemy.
Your ability to grasp use deception as a tool is unparalleled in this game.

Your group organises propaganda to an art form.

And you will ultimately dominate not just null sec, but finally, all of high sec as well, once you have completely destroyed any potential of making a living in high sec.




Thats just completey stupid. You dont work harder at all. Maybe it takes you longer to earn the isk but its defiantely not harder. High sec carebears are the factory workers of eve, the unskilled labourers the only difference being in the real world labourers actually do hard work where as you click mouse, dont ever ever confuse clicking a mouse with hard work. If only you had some abition you could move up the ranks, put a white collar on and engage your brain. The reward for engaging your brain would be more isk for less time but with a greater amount of work and risk, thats the closest you can get to "hard work" in eve, engaging your brain and having to be more proactive thinking about your surroundings and what you are doing.

This is not polotics, its not spin its fact. Risk reward is common sense and you sir are spouting drivel from every pore. For this game to keep going high sec needs to wither away to a fraction fo its current size with a much reduced chance to earn isk. You running around hi sec making isk never getting your ship blown up and barely talking to anyone does nothing for the game.
AndromacheDarkstar
Integrated Insterstellar Holdings
#276 - 2012-12-12 11:07:26 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
And to be honest who really gives a **** if you choose to unsubscribe..


CCP does.







Im not too sure if CCP care if people who pay with plex unsubscribe or not.
Frying Doom
#277 - 2012-12-12 11:23:17 UTC
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
And to be honest who really gives a **** if you choose to unsubscribe..


CCP does.







Im not too sure if CCP care if people who pay with plex unsubscribe or not.

A plex is actually more valuable to CCP monetarily than a monthly subscription, while the person using the plex did not pay for it their isk did.

And without that isk there would be no plex.

So Yes I think CCP would care.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#278 - 2012-12-12 11:26:04 UTC
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Its not really fair that those of use that choose to take advantage of all the game has to offer have to work considerably harder to achieve the same level of reward.


And that is precisely what high sec players are saying about null.
We high sec players have to work much much harder for the same rewards lavished on null sec, even if you factor in this new term of 2012 "risk/rewards", created by null sec propagandists to work with the other popular term "rebalance high sec".

Modern politics works the same way.
If a lie is repeated long enough, and widespread enough, then the more gullible actually start to believe it.
Fox News operates this way.

And once the lie is believed, then anything can be justified as a solution to that lie.

I may hate people like goons and their acolytes with every fibre of my being, but that does not mean I don't respect my enemy.
Your ability to grasp use deception as a tool is unparalleled in this game.

Your group organises propaganda to an art form.

And you will ultimately dominate not just null sec, but finally, all of high sec as well, once you have completely destroyed any potential of making a living in high sec.




Thats just completey stupid. You dont work harder at all. Maybe it takes you longer to earn the isk but its defiantely not harder. High sec carebears are the factory workers of eve, the unskilled labourers the only difference being in the real world labourers actually do hard work where as you click mouse, dont ever ever confuse clicking a mouse with hard work. If only you had some abition you could move up the ranks, put a white collar on and engage your brain. The reward for engaging your brain would be more isk for less time but with a greater amount of work and risk, thats the closest you can get to "hard work" in eve, engaging your brain and having to be more proactive thinking about your surroundings and what you are doing.

This is not polotics, its not spin its fact. Risk reward is common sense and you sir are spouting drivel from every pore. For this game to keep going high sec needs to wither away to a fraction fo its current size with a much reduced chance to earn isk. You running around hi sec making isk never getting your ship blown up and barely talking to anyone does nothing for the game.


Problem there is with bridges, titan bridges, huge seas of blue and an almost instant connection with hi-sec markets the risk vs reward is all screwed up for Null as well, at the moment it is not lawless outlaw space or even player empire space it is like the suburbs.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Amarra Mandalin
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#279 - 2012-12-12 14:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
[quote=Dinsdale Pirannha][quote=Natsett Amuinn]

For this game to keep going high sec needs to wither away to a fraction fo its current size with a much reduced chance to earn isk. You running around hi sec making isk never getting your ship blown up and barely talking to anyone does nothing for the game.



Since no one wants to address some of the on-topic facts/questions proposed by myself and others (like Vaerah) who asked for a straight answer, I'll say this. It is quite amusing the interest people have in making people social -- I've seen it repeated in this thread and elsewhere. Do people sincerely care? It's highly doubtful. Even on the forum that is evident as most people talk at or through one and other. Dare I say the claim is insincere.

It's not like everyone who joins Eve is a social butterfly nor is most any dialog I've seen particularly elevated or interesting -- other than on TS with a few people I know and some RL stuff corpies have talked about. That is, other than game-related politics and mechanics.

Introverts (and people in sociodemographic minorities) do have a right to exist and prosper regardless, be it in RL or an MMO -- it's really no one's business (if you want to "interact," or blow them up, fine). If it is not a financially viable model, to have a few quiet spirits, then I suppose CCP could change the game to partytime Eve/forced group activities even more.

Oh, and I run all over every sec system and try not to get blown up. My bad.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#280 - 2012-12-12 14:06:36 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
AndromacheDarkstar wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Its not really fair that those of use that choose to take advantage of all the game has to offer have to work considerably harder to achieve the same level of reward.


And that is precisely what high sec players are saying about null.
We high sec players have to work much much harder for the same rewards lavished on null sec, even if you factor in this new term of 2012 "risk/rewards", created by null sec propagandists to work with the other popular term "rebalance high sec".

Modern politics works the same way.
If a lie is repeated long enough, and widespread enough, then the more gullible actually start to believe it.
Fox News operates this way.

And once the lie is believed, then anything can be justified as a solution to that lie.

I may hate people like goons and their acolytes with every fibre of my being, but that does not mean I don't respect my enemy.
Your ability to grasp use deception as a tool is unparalleled in this game.

Your group organises propaganda to an art form.

And you will ultimately dominate not just null sec, but finally, all of high sec as well, once you have completely destroyed any potential of making a living in high sec.




Thats just completey stupid. You dont work harder at all. Maybe it takes you longer to earn the isk but its defiantely not harder. High sec carebears are the factory workers of eve, the unskilled labourers the only difference being in the real world labourers actually do hard work where as you click mouse, dont ever ever confuse clicking a mouse with hard work. If only you had some abition you could move up the ranks, put a white collar on and engage your brain. The reward for engaging your brain would be more isk for less time but with a greater amount of work and risk, thats the closest you can get to "hard work" in eve, engaging your brain and having to be more proactive thinking about your surroundings and what you are doing.

This is not polotics, its not spin its fact. Risk reward is common sense and you sir are spouting drivel from every pore. For this game to keep going high sec needs to wither away to a fraction fo its current size with a much reduced chance to earn isk. You running around hi sec making isk never getting your ship blown up and barely talking to anyone does nothing for the game.


Problem there is with bridges, titan bridges, huge seas of blue and an almost instant connection with hi-sec markets the risk vs reward is all screwed up for Null as well, at the moment it is not lawless outlaw space or even player empire space it is like the suburbs.


So actually 0.0 is an industrialists' wonderland and the thousands of players who operate there are just too dumb to realise it.

Welp, I guess that winds this thread up, thanks for your help & insight Mr Doom.


OK GUYS LETS GET THOSE BPOS TO PERIOD BASIS

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016