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The Damage Control needs to be passive, now more than ever.

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Doddy
Excidium.
#201 - 2012-12-07 14:10:12 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, but turning them off sure does, and since they they're easy enough to ignore until you really need them, it's not like turning them on is a huge chore.

Now this we can agree on. It is not a huge chore at all actually.
Neither is switching security every time you log on.
Nor is opening ships and inventory when you dock.
Or resizing the info window when you open it.
Or having to drag all modules from a wreck to your cargo (pre loot all).
Or activating every ungrouped gun (pre grouping).

All these things, and a lot of others too, are not at all huge chores, agree? It's still a small pain to deal with all these little things.


And these things had no negative game play impact being changed, dc being active does.
Doddy
Excidium.
#202 - 2012-12-07 14:14:15 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Rordan D'Kherr wrote:
Ok, page 10 and I still cannot see the problem.

DC takes too much cap? Activating it is too hard? What's the issue?

The issue is that there is no reason not to have the DC active, it already almost behaves like a passive module, except it has to be activated to circumvent a coding issue, and it's annoying to having to activate it every time you jump between systems.

Edit: In b4 Tippia "you don't have to activate it for every jump". Well no, you also don't HAVE TO activate your guns when fighting, or HAVE TO fit a tank at all. Bad argument.


Okay you are definately trolling, you use weapons and tank to fight, you don't use a dc to jump.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#203 - 2012-12-07 14:18:58 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, but turning them off sure does, and since they they're easy enough to ignore until you really need them, it's not like turning them on is a huge chore.

Now this we can agree on. It is not a huge chore at all actually.
Neither is switching security every time you log on.
Nor is opening ships and inventory when you dock.
Or resizing the info window when you open it.
Or having to drag all modules from a wreck to your cargo (pre loot all).
Or activating every ungrouped gun (pre grouping).

All these things, and a lot of others too, are not at all huge chores, agree? It's still a small pain to deal with all these little things.


And these things had no negative game play impact being changed, dc being active does.

In your opinion..

If DC deactivates because of cap issues, then it being off is the least of your problems. There should be a better reason to keep it active than that.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#204 - 2012-12-07 14:20:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Neither is switching security every time you log on.
Actually, it is, because you know your intent before you even log in and its setting has no impact on people around you -- only you. Unlike the DC, which is situational and which has actual game-mechanical effects.

Quote:
Nor is opening ships and inventory when you dock.
Or resizing the info window when you open it.
For these, the chore is zero, since you can already make their appearance persistent and automatic, so exactly what you're trying to illustrate here is quite beyond me. Opening inventories or info windows are not a chore so therefore we should not have to make an active decision to turn on a critical module?! Huh?

Quote:
Or having to drag all modules from a wreck to your cargo (pre loot all).
The difference here is that it's actually supposed to be a bit of work, so that the nimble-fingered can get the stuff before the competition does. Automation in this regard would be a bad thing.

Quote:
Or activating every ungrouped gun (pre grouping).
And finally, this one was done because it had beneficial consequences for the servers and because it was such a consistent "do everything at once, the same way every time" activity that people had it (legally) macroed -- putting it into the client rather than relying on external software was just a sensible fairness move.

None of these particularly correspond to the (significant) game impact of having the DC as an active module, and the balancing considerations that would have to be taken into account should it be changed.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#205 - 2012-12-07 14:27:00 UTC
Yet again Tippia, this is getting tiring, you do not respond to the issue, but make up a fictional and respond to them and win a fictional argument.

Security, it's two clicks, one more than a dc. - not a huge chore.
Persistence. We could remove it, and all the little things about positioning and resizing windows. They are individually not huge chores.
Loot all. It's not a huge chore, I was not talking about who gets loot first or anything, only the fact that you had to drag all items from one window to another.
I never said anything about server performance, I know why it was done, that was not a case in this argument, yet you chose to make up your own case again, to win a fictional argument. Good job.

Those things are/were not huge chores (respond to the damn argument *for once, please*) but Eve is a better place because we are rid of those small issues.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Doddy
Excidium.
#206 - 2012-12-07 14:31:15 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Tippia wrote:
No, but turning them off sure does, and since they they're easy enough to ignore until you really need them, it's not like turning them on is a huge chore.

Now this we can agree on. It is not a huge chore at all actually.
Neither is switching security every time you log on.
Nor is opening ships and inventory when you dock.
Or resizing the info window when you open it.
Or having to drag all modules from a wreck to your cargo (pre loot all).
Or activating every ungrouped gun (pre grouping).

All these things, and a lot of others too, are not at all huge chores, agree? It's still a small pain to deal with all these little things.


And these things had no negative game play impact being changed, dc being active does.

In your opinion..

If DC deactivates because of cap issues, then it being off is the least of your problems. There should be a better reason to keep it active than that.


I don't think you have ever done any frigate combat have you. Neuts turning off dcs are not very rare in any case. With a 30 sec cycle time vs a 5 sec cycle small neut your dc will have a 1 in 6 chance of being deactivated every cycle once your cap is broken, this is quite common (most pvp is cap instable to start with, especially with smaller ships), happen to be up against a blood frig or the new amarr destroyer then it will be almost guaranteed to be turned off if the pilot staggers his reps. Given that often the dc is the only mod that can be turned off, and that doing so massively decreases the targets ehp that is quite a nerf to cap warfare.

You also pointedly ignore things like the buff to cloaked ships, the buff to afk ships, the already ridiculous power of the dc which clearly doesn't need buffed and so on. Thought you were going to add points on your post? Or is that just ones you choose?
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#207 - 2012-12-07 14:35:32 UTC
Doddy wrote:

I don't think you have ever done any frigate combat have you. Neuts turning off dcs are not very rare in any case. With a 30 sec cycle time vs a 5 sec cycle small neut your dc will have a 1 in 6 chance of being deactivated every cycle once your cap is broken, this is quite common (most pvp is cap instable to start with, especially with smaller ships), happen to be up against a blood frig or the new amarr destroyer then it will be almost guaranteed to be turned off if the pilot staggers his reps. Given that often the dc is the only mod that can be turned off, and that doing so massively decreases the targets ehp that is quite a nerf to cap warfare.

You also pointedly ignore things like the buff to cloaked ships, the buff to afk ships, the already ridiculous power of the dc which clearly doesn't need buffed and so on. Thought you were going to add points on your post? Or is that just ones you choose?

I have, actually, and if my DC shut down from cap issues, my guns, ab/mwd, scram, web, hardeners and or reps were already off, and the DC made no difference to the outcome of the fight in the slightest amount.

Yeah, sorry about that, added buff to cloakers to the list.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#208 - 2012-12-07 14:36:21 UTC
I won't add "buff to afk ships" because an afk ship is afk, and will die, just not as fast, so it's not really an argument for or against.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#209 - 2012-12-07 14:40:04 UTC
If you're worried about the DC extending the time to safely log off, a better fix would be to decrease cycle time of the DC to 5 seconds. Cap cost could be reduced to zero so that it stays cap-neutral and un-neutable much as it is now.

.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#210 - 2012-12-07 14:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Yet again Tippia, this is getting tiring, you do not respond to the issue, but make up a fictional and respond to them and win a fictional argument.
Incorrect, yet again. I respond to the issue by demonstrating the difference between a module (and the effect it has) and various UI tweaks that may or may not have been put into place to deal with completely separate issues.

Quote:
Those things are/were not huge chores (respond to the damn argument *for once, please*) but Eve is a better place because we are rid of those small issues.
...and the DC being active has nothing to do with it being a chore no matter how much you want to paint it as one (after all, this is pretty much your only argument for making it passive).

The game improvements, or lack thereof, with the examples you chose also had nothing to do with removing chores (except for in the window persistence example, where this kind of detail is exactly what good UI design does). Instead, they are all utterly and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand because they all have different purposes and because none of them have anything resembling the game balance considerations of an active module. The safety is a misfeature because it deals with intent; the UI persistence is meant to remove such busywork; looting is the exact opposite and is meant to require a bit of work; gun grouping only accidentally makes shooting easier; none of them have have to do with making your ship perform better or worse. They are all completely separate, unconnected issues.

Making the DC passive does not make EVE a better place even if it removes a (non)chore and no amount of irrelevant dissimiles changes this.

Quote:
I have, actually, and if my DC shut down from cap issues, my guns, ab/mwd, scram, web, hardeners and or reps were already off, and the DC made no difference to the outcome of the fight in the slightest amount.
Then maybe you should look beyond 1v1s (or 1 v Many), where having that DC still online could have made quite a bit of difference. After all, it's a situational thing so you can't generalise from one particular case and assume that it will stay the same in all situations.
Merouk Baas
#211 - 2012-12-07 14:44:37 UTC
I'd go for the DC being passive, shrug. It's one less click every gate.

Smartbombs and trying the MWD-Cloak trick would be cases where you don't have time to turn it on, giving an advantage to the gate camper, but in neither case will you be saved by extra resists alone, so IMO making it passive would save a lot more clicking than ships.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#212 - 2012-12-11 09:31:17 UTC
Bump. Anyone else have any feedback on this?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2012-12-11 09:54:51 UTC
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