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Buy the ability to fix your sec status in game?

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CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2012-12-05 15:33:24 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah. The idea behind adding alternative venues to repairing status is that the current way just isn't good enough. Instead of having a single venue and crossing our fingers that it's good enough, I'd prefer to have ways of doing this and letting players choose which way suits them.

The goal isn't that people shouldn't take responsibility, it's given people the option to redeem themselves in a manner that's not grinding missions forever.
So are you planning to at least put time limits on the solution, like the 3 months for "redeeming" yourself with the pirate factions? Or only being able to go back this way from -5.0?

Going negative sec. isn't something that just happens, like someone busting their NPC standings via derived hits.

People are more than aware of what they are doing, and the people who do it are more than capable of dealing with the consequence.

I really hope you do see the design paradox in giving people a penalty for an activity, and then allowing them to nullify that penlty using the goods gained by performing the activity that got them penalized in the first place.

You have a rule against recycling negative sec alts for a reason, before you allow people to just throw ISK at it, instead of biomassing, take some time and reconsider why you have security penalties in the first place.

If they can go away by spending ISK, why even have them in the first place? Crimewatch went along way in making sure people can pew pew in lots of places with minimal sec hits. I see no reason to inconvenience people at all with sec penalties, if they can just buy their way out. Not even an ISK sink since tags are player traded - just remove the penalty all together.

Or, limit sec gain to low-sec and discourage people from going too low in the first place and promote the myriad of "legal" fighting that crimewatch just brought them. Don't promote lowsec gate camping by removing the consequences. It's the least likely form of PvP to get people interested, the opposite is probably more true.



Yeah, this is definitely something where we need to balance this extremely carefully. There are two extremes really; Someone who used to be a pirate and wants to try new things. We need to give players like that tools, so we don't pidgeonhole our gameplay into "congrats, you have to do this for the rest of your life". On the other end of the spectrum, this cannot be the new default way for suicide gankers to recycle characters. Absolutely a delicate balance.
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#22 - 2012-12-05 16:27:47 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah, this is definitely something where we need to balance this extremely carefully. There are two extremes really; Someone who used to be a pirate and wants to try new things. We need to give players like that tools, so we don't pidgeonhole our gameplay into "congrats, you have to do this for the rest of your life". On the other end of the spectrum, this cannot be the new default way for suicide gankers to recycle characters. Absolutely a delicate balance.
That's reassuring.

I agree people need a not "unfun" way of getting out of whatever playstyle they've digged themself into. Running missions is fine for people who busted their standings by running missions in the first place.

In that regard, negative sec is gained by attacking players that are not legal targets. The suggestion about attacking legal targets to regain sec is the most interesting I've seen, but sadly open to all the alt exploits that other mechanics that involve people shooting each other are, and in the end, all boil down to being able to jump through a hoop or two and throw ISK at the problem.

I do believe that lowsec should be the place where you regain sec status. Having people actively do something else than sit on gates in lowsec, between -10 and -5, could create some interesting opportunities. but it would need to be NPC objectives I'm afraid. At least it would happen in the place where people with this problem are used to operating and not in the "safety" of a 0.0 system somewhere.
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#23 - 2012-12-05 17:59:03 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah, this is definitely something where we need to balance this extremely carefully. There are two extremes really; Someone who used to be a pirate and wants to try new things. We need to give players like that tools, so we don't pidgeonhole our gameplay into "congrats, you have to do this for the rest of your life". On the other end of the spectrum, this cannot be the new default way for suicide gankers to recycle characters. Absolutely a delicate balance.


Acknowleding the difficult balance issue of modifying the way sec status is gained, I really really hope you consider disassociating the grind for sec from PvE activity. There have been more than a few suggestions on it, but when you pursue a change to this mechanic please make it so that the 'counter' to a certain type of PvP activity isn't a PvE activity. Maybe it is hunting other negative sec people, maybe it is related to the whole system you introduced for bounties, maybe it will be something else you can brainstorm but for the love of all things good please don't make it rat related!
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-12-05 19:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
This is a perfectly fine idea. +1 I approve.

The only logical complaint against it I see here seems to be "You should have to face the consequences of your actions."

...But having to pay a lot of money IS a consequence. One that for some people, is much more fun / less painful than grinding horrible missions that they hate all day long. Why should we force people to do something they hate? Give people an option about how to pay for their crimes, and the crimes will still be discouraged, but everybody can have more fun.

Hell, even in real life, police are usually reasonable enough to give you an option between paying money (bail / fines) and doing time, for small crimes. And they don't even HAVE "fun" as a variable to consider.

Quote:

I really hope you do see the design paradox in giving people a penalty for an activity, and then allowing them to nullify that penlty using the goods gained by performing the activity that got them penalized in the first place.

If you spend all the money you got from pirating to make yourself not an outlaw anymore, then you just wasted all your time. It's already obvious that the price would have to be very steep (to approach the equivalent of grinding for the average person), and that it would inevitably have to be tweaked to the point where piracy is kept at reasonable levels, making this not a very great argument.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#25 - 2012-12-05 19:43:02 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah, this is definitely something where we need to balance this extremely carefully. There are two extremes really; Someone who used to be a pirate and wants to try new things. We need to give players like that tools, so we don't pidgeonhole our gameplay into "congrats, you have to do this for the rest of your life". On the other end of the spectrum, this cannot be the new default way for suicide gankers to recycle characters. Absolutely a delicate balance.
As a -10 pirate, I have real concerns about being able to buy your way out of a low security status. I in fact do not agree with it, as there are already options available.

But as it seems you are going with this anyway, please, please, please, make it as time consuming as null sec ratting your way up is now.
Also please don't allow the tags to be transferable in any way. The person wanting to change, should have to do the work not simply buy the tags.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-12-05 22:17:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah, this is definitely something where we need to balance this extremely carefully. There are two extremes really; Someone who used to be a pirate and wants to try new things. We need to give players like that tools, so we don't pidgeonhole our gameplay into "congrats, you have to do this for the rest of your life". On the other end of the spectrum, this cannot be the new default way for suicide gankers to recycle characters. Absolutely a delicate balance.
As a -10 pirate, I have real concerns about being able to buy your way out of a low security status. I in fact do not agree with it, as there are already options available.

But as it seems you are going with this anyway, please, please, please, make it as time consuming as null sec ratting your way up is now..



I have known piewats go 0.0 to fix their sec status....for some it wasn't so bad. Raked in some nice isk and tbh they pulled in nice kills on roams. I am sure you know how many blobbers just don't have the small skirmish playing skills built up. Not a bust on them per se, I am one of them. Bullk of time for me in 0.0 was in sov games. I can bash pos real good. Bulk of time it was that or ratting to replace ships when the enemy actually wanted that pos or SOV structure alive lol.

You don't have to live for the blob to be in the blob they came to find out. Don't get caught up in CAOD crap and man its jsut log in and its business as usual. Fix your sec status, make isk and gtfo when done .

Dawn DiDacyria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-12-06 08:29:00 UTC
Face the consequences or work to get your sec status up is basically all there should be. "Basically" as I can think of one other thing/way that could be introduced:

Temporary Pass/Visa against a Faction or Concord.
This Temp Pass could be gotten in various ways, should be either difficult to get (high-end tags handed in against one, LP points used to buy one for the Faction the LP store caters to) or expensive (bribery at the highest levels, forged documents from Pirate Factions).

Rules would of course apply while flying under a Pass or Visa no matter how you got your hands on it:

1. No criminal activity, not even Suspect, while flying in Empire Space under a Pass. Doing so will revoke the pass and instigate immediate deployment of appropriate Police.
If you got the Pass legitimately the local police will still be distrustful and are keeping an eye on you and your actions.
If you got the Pass illegitimately the Pass does not hold up to the scrutiny of an investigation launched when engaging in a criminal activity so the "cover" is blown.

2. The Pass is limited time only. How long depends on how long the character has purchased for. Once the Pass runs out everything is again back to normal.
If legitimately the local police are of course counting down the time until they can move in and arrest you. *wink*
If illegitimately the checks on the pass will have found discrepancies and the truth will have been discovered.

3. And any other rules that might be appropriate. I have not had time to consider all aspects so comments and criticism are welcome, I won't feel bad as I haven't had time to "fix" it up.


This might be a way to allow players really wanting to change a way to do so as they can easier work up their status when in the space they have bad status against, perhaps except for Concord, without being able to "just buy a higher sec-status and get away without any other consequence than lost ISK".

Cheers
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-12-06 09:43:36 UTC
Giving a way to buy sec status with ISK (directly or indirectly) would severly devalue sec status, if not outright eliminate its purpose. It would be better if instead the PVE was made more interesting, so that it becomes less of a chore at least.

Generally I believe there should be no way to fix sec status quickly in real world time.
Dawn DiDacyria
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-12-06 10:21:12 UTC
Colman Dietmar wrote:
Giving a way to buy sec status with ISK (directly or indirectly) would severly devalue sec status, if not outright eliminate its purpose. It would be better if instead the PVE was made more interesting, so that it becomes less of a chore at least.

Generally I believe there should be no way to fix sec status quickly in real world time.



Having a temporary Pass/Visa does not "fix" your security status in any way. It stays the same but you've bought your way to temporarily be able to fly and do things in said areas.

Cheers
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-12-06 10:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
The problem is EVE has to many illegal targets to begin with. And local chat intel. It's impossible to hide from or surprise attack anyone with reasonable intelligence. Twisted
Colman Dietmar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-12-06 23:56:28 UTC
Dawn DiDacyria wrote:

Having a temporary Pass/Visa does not "fix" your security status in any way. It stays the same but you've bought your way to temporarily be able to fly and do things in said areas.


Temporary pass might be ok, but I think it would require conditions of instant nullification, like if the owner initiates combat or somesuch.

And there should be a limit on how many of such passes one can buy per month, so that it doesn't become a subscription to do w/e one wants reguardless of his sec status.
Dark Long
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-12-08 07:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Long
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Yeah. The idea behind adding alternative venues to repairing status is that the current way just isn't good enough. Instead of having a single venue and crossing our fingers that it's good enough, I'd prefer to have ways of doing this and letting players choose which way suits them.

The goal isn't that people shouldn't take responsibility, it's given people the option to redeem themselves in a manner that's not grinding missions forever.
So are you planning to at least put time limits on the solution, like the 3 months for "redeeming" yourself with the pirate factions? Or only being able to go back this way from -5.0?

Going negative sec. isn't something that just happens, like someone busting their NPC standings via derived hits.

People are more than aware of what they are doing, and the people who do it are more than capable of dealing with the consequence.

I really hope you do see the design paradox in giving people a penalty for an activity, and then allowing them to nullify that penlty using the goods gained by performing the activity that got them penalized in the first place.

You have a rule against recycling negative sec alts for a reason, before you allow people to just throw ISK at it, instead of biomassing, take some time and reconsider why you have security penalties in the first place.

If they can go away by spending ISK, why even have them in the first place? Crimewatch went along way in making sure people can pew pew in lots of places with minimal sec hits. I see no reason to inconvenience people at all with sec penalties, if they can just buy their way out. Not even an ISK sink since tags are player traded - just remove the penalty all together.

Or, limit sec gain to low-sec and discourage people from going too low in the first place and promote the myriad of "legal" fighting that crimewatch just brought them. Don't promote lowsec gate camping by removing the consequences. It's the least likely form of PvP to get people interested, the opposite is probably more true.



Yeah, this is definitely something where we need to balance this extremely carefully. There are two extremes really; Someone who used to be a pirate and wants to try new things. We need to give players like that tools, so we don't pidgeonhole our gameplay into "congrats, you have to do this for the rest of your life". On the other end of the spectrum, this cannot be the new default way for suicide gankers to recycle characters. Absolutely a delicate balance.



So then if your talking about buy your sec stat. back up what about faction standings if you do one you should do then all/ my main is -9.99 to amarr ill put isk into lowering that standing just so that toon can run in amarr space. if your going to add isk to fix sec stat then you better add in faction standing as well.
my main - standing to amarr is not do to faction war eather just running minmatar level 4 missions so fair is fair.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#33 - 2012-12-08 12:12:00 UTC
Hazzard wrote:
In the Eve Open the idea what mentioned that there could be an in game item players could buy to boost there sec status.

Is this in game yet? If not can CCP please confirm if it's in there backlog?




Y U NO datacentres?

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