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New NPC AI, how about no?

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Author
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#441 - 2013-01-22 23:29:05 UTC
Bedlin wrote:
Well really the purpose of this thread it to have (THE COMPANY) look at it and rethink the issue, they could use some of the ideas here or come up with an even better fix or give up like the original poster wants and roll it back.

It's not my place to see what is the best to fix the issue, but I do hope they are "adamantly concerned and actively looking into it, with hopes to have it fixed "soon"."
(Hey devs if you would post in here you can even use my quoted comment there to give us some feedback.)
Big smile please? Smile really? Sad something?

okay Cry



A temporal rollback only would be sufficient, after they completed the PVE revamp and tested it they could update the main servers i think. But my idea is somewhat radical, there are way more better writings in this topic than mine.
Baron Dmitri Harkonnen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#442 - 2013-01-23 09:55:08 UTC
Lol I started doing level 1 missions on my new character and in the first one The Blockade I was perma jammed. Had to warp out and abandon it after warping back in and trying again to no avail.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#443 - 2013-01-23 10:54:02 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
dexington wrote:
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
Onwards to WH space...


W-space has similar AI, but you can trying doing lvl 2 missions in a T3 with officer fit, should be a suitable difficulty level.


We already found a class 5 WH, were farming them in capitals and I assure you that with the new AI changes this is much more isk/hour efficient and personally i think its easier than a 10/10 ded plex since a triage archon outweights numerous logistics by its own. So basically were doing the same stuff as we need to do in 0.0 space exploration, the only difference that were making more money in less time. And this is WRONG.


HIGHer RISK + HARDer CONTENT should be = MORE ISK


since the AI update that is NOT TRUE.


read the capital letters together.


DED complexs got low sec'd by CCP. hahahaha :)

Sorry to hear that.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Flying Apocalypse
#444 - 2013-01-23 12:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Flying Apocalypse
Claire Raynor wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter.


This would be awesome.


However - NPCs would need to have real CAP - would need to warp away to try and deny a kill - would need to have all the stats and mechanics of a normal ship.

Currently a PvE boatd would not fit Neuts - doesn't need a point - some EWar is irrelevant as it simply will not function against NPCs and some is pointless because there are so many NPCs, (NPC numbers- you have suggested will be reduced).

But the latest changes also take us further from PvP fitted Ships for PvE. We will now be looking at L4 BS's fitting medium guns to counter frigates - and other such things which would be hugely sub-optimal for PvP. (I'm no PvP expert - look at my kill board - but I still have a vague idea of what would be fitted to a PvP ship)

OK.

1) Some people like to grind - I did actually like the old PvE. I knew there would be thousands of badies for me to lay waste to - and I had strategies. On missions where enemies would warp in in waves - I'd need to pay more attention to my drones. Etc Etc. It was comfortable - and fun esspecially to multi-box. It wasn't without merit. If I liked it others will have too. Not to say it couldn't be improved - but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Why not keep these "Battle" missions - just balance them - make drones tougher??? Maybe - less usless - somehow - un-webbable.

2) If there are going to be missions, in the future, that are more like problem solving - high tactics - where you would radically change the fit of your ship from one mission to the next. . . Well why not call these "Adventure" missions for those who might like this style of content. I mean - you are going to have to build these new missions from scratch anyway. So why not add them as a new type of thing?


1. I am a person who doesn't mind grinding, Most of my time is spend on school so the few hours a day(sometimes none) are usually spend doing lvl 4's because I can't really be bothered doing anything else. Especially since my skills are still quite bad(focused on paladin pretty much, don't even have 5 drones yet) and will be spending my next few months training skills to be even viable in pvp.

2. If they change all rats stats & numbers etc. etc. I doubt active armor tanking will be viable... active armor tanking is on most ships a very bad idea and will not work. And I doubt I will be running lvl 4 security missions if they will be as badly balanced as I think they will be.(I do like your adventure missions tho, or Advanced Security) not to mention ships that aren't really viable in pvp(Marauders for example) will probaly not be that viable in them either unless they apply tiercide before this breaks loose.

Also let's not forget new people in eve. They would probaly need a substantial increase in skills before even being able to do lvl 3/4's if the AI get's more pvp-like in security missions.

And I really don't mind the drone changes as much anymore, just don't deploy them more than 20km away and they should be able to make it alive(Maybe heavies is another tale tho) and I must say that the aggro switch is a really weird mechanic, in 1 mission I had 4 drones on 1 elite frigate for about 5 mins, and it would not switch to my drones. then when I somehow got out to 15km from him it suddenly switched to my drones and I was able to get close enough to web and kill him.

For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o

L0rdF1end
Threat Contained
The Initiative.
#445 - 2013-01-23 16:12:14 UTC
CCP, you still don't get it.

I understand the need for making missioning and ratting a bit more interesting and making it so you can't afk misson/plex/rat.

But these changes are still hruting the soloist PVPers out there.
You've crippled our game. I do not expect to be agressed by rats in a belt that I have not agrssed myself.

I want to solo PVP like I was able to before Retribution.

It's hurting a lot of peoples playstyle and as said already in this thread it creates more blobby PVP because you need a small gang to deal with the rats and the target.

Please please consider fixing Rat AI for target priority to the agresser.

Retribution has bought nothing to my game but a bunch of nerfs. I can and will adapt regading PVE but these changes have gone too far.

I actually wish I could rollback my cleint and play pre Retribution.
sucky patch, not a happy customer.
vice vortex
Autopsy
#446 - 2013-01-23 16:18:58 UTC
L0rdF1end wrote:
CCP, you still don't get it.

I understand the need for making missioning and ratting a bit more interesting and making it so you can't afk misson/plex/rat.

But these changes are still hruting the soloist PVPers out there.
You've crippled our game. I do not expect to be agressed by rats in a belt that I have not agrssed myself.

I want to solo PVP like I was able to before Retribution.

It's hurting a lot of peoples playstyle and as said already in this thread it creates more blobby PVP because you need a small gang to deal with the rats and the target.

Please please consider fixing Rat AI for target priority to the agresser.

Retribution has bought nothing to my game but a bunch of nerfs. I can and will adapt regading PVE but these changes have gone too far.

I actually wish I could rollback my cleint and play pre Retribution.
sucky patch, not a happy customer.

man that must be really sucky to deal with :( i havnt played long and the whole sandbox idea has wore off very very fast, its almost like they are carving the way we play, what we fly etc :(
Signal11th
#447 - 2013-01-23 16:22:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Signal11th
I must admit it can be quite difficult to micro manage drone aggro whilst also using DSCAN, targeting , moving etc I'm sure CCP envisaged Octopi playing this game not humans.

Also in a Catch-22 esque way they have made the rats actually appear less intelligent than before. Now when the rats are being blasted to kingdom come and then someone warps into the site and attacks "their" enemy what do they do....

Do they cheer and wipe their brow praising the heavens (or whatever) that a rescuer has appeared...er no they target the new chap and help kill him and then resume being blasted apart by the orignal aggressors...well done CCP.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#448 - 2013-01-23 17:54:40 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
L0rdF1end wrote:
CCP, you still don't get it.

I understand the need for making missioning and ratting a bit more interesting and making it so you can't afk misson/plex/rat.

But these changes are still hruting the soloist PVPers out there.
You've crippled our game. I do not expect to be agressed by rats in a belt that I have not agrssed myself.

I want to solo PVP like I was able to before Retribution.

It's hurting a lot of peoples playstyle and as said already in this thread it creates more blobby PVP because you need a small gang to deal with the rats and the target.

Please please consider fixing Rat AI for target priority to the agresser.

Retribution has bought nothing to my game but a bunch of nerfs. I can and will adapt regading PVE but these changes have gone too far.

I actually wish I could rollback my cleint and play pre Retribution.
sucky patch, not a happy customer.



Ok so explain to me why you expect to be able to warp into an belt/anom and not be aggressed by the rats? Lets say you and three corp mates are fleeted and in a belt trying to kill a red. While this is happening a neut warps in to the belt but does not aggress you immediately. Are you and your friends going to wait for that neut to aggress you or are you gonna go blow him up before he has a chance to shoot you. And before you say you would kill the red first lets say he is flying a T1 frig and the neut is in a Tengu. Why should the rat AI behave differently than a human pilot?

The rats changing aggro seems to have something to do with their assessment of the threat level of whoever just warped in. I've been jumped in sites where the rat aggro stays on me even with a new target jumping in.
Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#449 - 2013-01-23 18:27:58 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
Now when the rats are being blasted to kingdom come and then someone warps into the site and attacks "their" enemy what do they do....

Do they cheer and wipe their brow praising the heavens (or whatever) that a rescuer has appeared...er no they target the new chap and help kill him and then resume being blasted apart by the orignal aggressors...well done CCP.




if youre tackled in belt by a erd and someone comes to help you, you wouldnt shoot the one coming to help. This is an answer to amurder hakomairos.
Signal11th
#450 - 2013-01-23 19:28:32 UTC
Caldari Citizen20121206 wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
Now when the rats are being blasted to kingdom come and then someone warps into the site and attacks "their" enemy what do they do....

Do they cheer and wipe their brow praising the heavens (or whatever) that a rescuer has appeared...er no they target the new chap and help kill him and then resume being blasted apart by the orignal aggressors...well done CCP.




if youre tackled in belt by a erd and someone comes to help you, you wouldnt shoot the one coming to help. This is an answer to amurder hakomairos.



I assume you are agreeing with me as I must admit your post didn't make that much sense to me?

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Caldari Citizen20121206
Great Eastern
#451 - 2013-01-23 20:24:34 UTC
yes i agree with you, i quoted your writing for an example only.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#452 - 2013-01-24 03:58:30 UTC
For me i am glad that rats have new AI. And highly disappointed that CCP made it highly buged EWAR
Sam Korak
Doomheim
#453 - 2013-01-24 18:33:43 UTC
Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#454 - 2013-01-24 19:10:58 UTC
Sam Korak wrote:
Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)


Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.)

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson

Vas Eldryn
#455 - 2013-01-24 20:30:29 UTC
Bedlin wrote:
Sam Korak wrote:
Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)


Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.)


sign me up for the total roll back, unless they do a total overhual on the missions to mesh with the new AI.

The only good thing about the new AI is it makes it a lot harder on mission ninja looters, watching them trying to steal your loot when every NPC in the mission changes target to them ..... priceless
Rocket D'ni
x Infected x
#456 - 2013-01-24 21:37:38 UTC
Vas Eldryn wrote:
Bedlin wrote:
Sam Korak wrote:
Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)


Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.)


sign me up for the total roll back, unless they do a total overhual on the missions to mesh with the new AI.

The only good thing about the new AI is it makes it a lot harder on mission ninja looters, watching them trying to steal your loot when every NPC in the mission changes target to them ..... priceless


Lol do people actually do this? Ninja looting in your mission?
Vas Eldryn
#457 - 2013-01-24 22:01:22 UTC
Rocket D'ni wrote:
Vas Eldryn wrote:
Bedlin wrote:
Sam Korak wrote:
Ok you guys know what, I'm with you on this. Make the NPC dumb again please :)


Welcome to the party, glad to have you. Could you please elaborate on what problem you ran into even if it's a repeat and offer any advice you can about correction that doesn't involve a total rollback. (unless that's what you really want.)


sign me up for the total roll back, unless they do a total overhual on the missions to mesh with the new AI.

The only good thing about the new AI is it makes it a lot harder on mission ninja looters, watching them trying to steal your loot when every NPC in the mission changes target to them ..... priceless


Lol do people actually do this? Ninja looting in your mission?


It's quite common in the good mission hubs, either ninja looters or griefers looking to flip or steal a misison objective, guess they will now have to fit a decent tank.... or learn some patience and wait till im done.
vasuul
BLUE M00N Fetish Group
#458 - 2013-01-25 09:54:11 UTC
Switching aggro to drones should only happen on new spawns of NPC's like it was before
constant drone loss severely cuts into the profit margin

And as for making PVE more like PVP NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

PVE is there to make LP and ISK period

if you want to make a new level of mission or new anomalies that will be harder fine by me

But stop blowing holes in my drones either that or give them rig slots so we can improve the tank on drones

I for one like the grind yes i would like new missions too but if people want to PVP they will PVP

if people want to grind they have level 1s though 4s missions

if people want a challenge with a group there are incursions and wormholes and level 5s or they can go to 0.0 and run complexes

QUIT trying to fix what is not broken , drones are a weapon system pure and simple , we can not target someones guns or missile launchers so why are Npc's targeting drones ????????

ROLL it back , then test, then implement way to often CCP acts like the US congress and passes something before thinking of the unintended consequences of that action

Mining is boring but i don't see you adding sensor damps to asteroids or putting gun platforms on the asteroids
reason , BECAUSE IT would be stupid as are these drone changes

you want to add to mission content here is an idea
1 how about some escort missions you have to protect the ship from the npc's until it can warp out
2 defense missions defend the star base from waves of npc attacker until reinforcements arrive
3 guard missions you have to safely escort a hauler through three to five dead space acceleration gates
and there is a rat spawn at random somewhere in it if the hauler dies the mission is a failure
4 a delivery mission that takes you to a random dead space drop off point , which again has a random spawn or two in it that attacks you for the cargo
5 gank the big ship like a NPC freighter but you got wave of ships coming in to stop you from succeeding
many other story ideas for missions to be had if you just think about it
Signal11th
#459 - 2013-01-25 10:02:56 UTC
vasuul wrote:
Switching aggro to drones should only happen on new spawns of NPC's like it was before
constant drone loss severely cuts into the profit margin

And as for making PVE more like PVP NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

PVE is there to make LP and ISK period

if you want to make a new level of mission or new anomalies that will be harder fine by me

But stop blowing holes in my drones either that or give them rig slots so we can improve the tank on drones

I for one like the grind yes i would like new missions too but if people want to PVP they will PVP

if people want to grind they have level 1s though 4s missions

if people want a challenge with a group there are incursions and wormholes and level 5s or they can go to 0.0 and run complexes

QUIT trying to fix what is not broken , drones are a weapon system pure and simple , we can not target someones guns or missile launchers so why are Npc's targeting drones ????????

ROLL it back , then test, then implement way to often CCP acts like the US congress and passes something before thinking of the unintended consequences of that action

Mining is boring but i don't see you adding sensor damps to asteroids or putting gun platforms on the asteroids
reason , BECAUSE IT would be stupid as are these drone changes

you want to add to mission content here is an idea
1 how about some escort missions you have to protect the ship from the npc's until it can warp out
2 defense missions defend the star base from waves of npc attacker until reinforcements arrive
3 guard missions you have to safely escort a hauler through three to five dead space acceleration gates
and there is a rat spawn at random somewhere in it if the hauler dies the mission is a failure
4 a delivery mission that takes you to a random dead space drop off point , which again has a random spawn or two in it that attacks you for the cargo
5 gank the big ship like a NPC freighter but you got wave of ships coming in to stop you from succeeding
many other story ideas for missions to be had if you just think about it



I PVE so I can PVP (albeit badly) If PVE was like PVP why do I need to then PVP? Plus PVE is wind down from PVP. I'm getting to the stage of my life where constant adrenaline rushes are to be considered hazardous to my life.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!

Lyndsey Love
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#460 - 2013-01-25 10:08:35 UTC
To be honest I tried the new NPC AI, because I have done lvl 4's long time ago. And it's awful. They ate all my drones in a few mins, and permajammed. So mission running was a boring **** in the old days, and now, it is same boring but more ****. Nice work CCP!

Also my tactic was to run lvl 4 with two accounts, but is it possible now, when NPC's switch targets? Can one ship be the tank and other the damage dealer or this thing is messed up too?