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New NPC AI, how about no?

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Mund Richard
#421 - 2013-01-20 16:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Signal11th wrote:
What you need to do is to make CCP believe that the change in drone aggro from the NPC's will cause 0.0 players grief

*sigh*

It does.

Unless they are moon goo miners or something.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Signal11th
#422 - 2013-01-20 16:18:45 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Signal11th wrote:
What you need to do is to make CCP believe that the change in drone aggro from the NPC's will cause 0.0 players grief

*sigh*

It does.

Unless they are moon goo miners or something.


How so exactly? I spend lots of time ratting in 0.0 and all it had made me do is remember:

HUB

2 waves leave out next wave pull in, 2 waves leave out 1 wave pull in last wave leave out. That is the only "grief" it has caused me.
If you are moaning and you are in 0.0 it's because you want to afk it.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Mund Richard
#423 - 2013-01-20 17:02:52 UTC
Signal11th wrote:
If you are moaning and you are in 0.0 it's because you want to afk it.

Not really.

It affects escalations, and ratter-hunters (which I personally never did, never liked, but accepted as a fact).

In fact, back in October or so CCP FoxFour acknowledged the PvP implications for Null, and promised to see to it.
Not that I mind that it's not coming Twisted

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Pookie McPook
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
#424 - 2013-01-20 17:11:15 UTC
Just back after six months aways and all I can say is I'm glad I'm not Gallente or else missioning in Serpentis or Blood Raider space.

Running level 4 missions in a Machariel (since they nerfed loot drops and introduced metal scraps) used to make ISK farming using that method just about worthwhile. It was a viable means of feeding whatever else you got up to in EVE.

Now the added time required to complete missions, and the fairly regular cost of replacing the odd T2 drone, makes it fairly unattractive. Mining is actually probably more profitable on an ISK/hour basis.

I think CCP need to look into the tweaked npc ai question and either totally revamp missions or else make drones a little less attractive to the red guys. The knock on effect to the game of reduced missioning is not going to lead to good things further on down the road. I can't see the changes resulting in a significant increase in players teaming up unless the loot drops are improved. They are more likely just going to lead to more solo/afk mining.

I would reiterate that the majority of veteran players undertake missioning to subsidise their preferred playstyle not as a means to an end. If that income stream becomes less appealing then the game may ultimately suffer.
Luc Chastot
#425 - 2013-01-20 20:22:30 UTC
Domi with MJD and sentries: even if the rats target your drones, they are so far away that they will never get hit. I whined about the change, but then adapted and started using a MJD with my sentry navy domi, lvl 4s are incredibly easy.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Sin Koraka
Doomheim
#426 - 2013-01-20 22:32:11 UTC
I adapted to my L5's by cancelling payment on 2 accounts. Works well for me.
MeeKai
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#427 - 2013-01-20 23:05:32 UTC
Signed, fix this ridiculous attempt at game balancing.
Flying Apocalypse
#428 - 2013-01-21 06:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Flying Apocalypse
Altho I at the moment have thoughts going both ways, sometimes you just lose 5 drones before even noticing it(for example when zoomed in looking at them pretty lazors) when you only looked away for 20 secs, and that just sucks. But it also isn't as game breaking anymore for me personally, I just don't deploy them until frigates are within 10km or only battleships remain.

The main problem for me is the rat EWAR that is stupidly overpowerd currently.

edit: And in an unrelated note: Rogue Drone lvl 4 missions are useless, you make close to no isk with em so not worth bothering doing em. :|

For some reason I can't delete my signature o.o
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#429 - 2013-01-21 07:40:33 UTC
This seems like an apt thread to mention the inexplicable and unbelievable hate rats now seem to harbor for tractor beams.

I had an entire room, from the frigs to the BS switch target to a tractor beam user within moments of it getting switched on.

Mind. Boggling.
Pookie McPook
The Whiskers of Kurvi-Tasch
#430 - 2013-01-21 10:28:07 UTC
I toyed with a MJD on my Maelstrom arty boat which fixed the issue to a degree. I find it peculiar however that CCP introduce this effective drone nerf for PVE so that people are encouraged to band together then shoot the idea in the head by making soloing viable again using MJDs. All that ends up happening is that missioners stop using drones.
Mund Richard
#431 - 2013-01-21 12:13:26 UTC
Stein Backstabber wrote:
This seems like an apt thread to mention the inexplicable and unbelievable hate rats now seem to harbor for tractor beams.

I had an entire room, from the frigs to the BS switch target to a tractor beam user within moments of it getting switched on.

Mind. Boggling.

Tractor Beam, the new taunt module.

Had battleships swap to a frig when there were two other guys (in bigger subcaps -> supposedly better targets) just for being there?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Stein Backstabber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#432 - 2013-01-21 12:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Stein Backstabber
I found it interesting as it was reliably reproducable. Up until that time I've been going under the assumption that the target switching was completely random (tests up until that point were giving results pointing to that event).

Don't test it like I did in a noctis though, the whole pocket switching at the same time was more than it could take and it popped in short order Lol
Marillio
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
#433 - 2013-01-22 08:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Marillio
*snip*
vice vortex
Autopsy
#434 - 2013-01-22 12:37:41 UTC
CCP PLEASE FIX UR FAULTS AND ENLIGHTEN UR CURRENT CUSTOMERS RATHER THAN WORKING ON PROJECTS FOR NEW CUSTOMERS PLEASE O PLEASE O PLEASE.
///
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
#435 - 2013-01-22 14:43:59 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hey folks, here is an update on our earlier post.
One of them is to bring PvE closer to PvP as mentioned before. What does that mean exactly? It means significantly reducing NPC numbers and bringing their attributes, AI closer with what you would expect from a PvP encounter.


This would be awesome.


However - NPCs would need to have real CAP - would need to warp away to try and deny a kill - would need to have all the stats and mechanics of a normal ship.

Currently a PvE boatd would not fit Neuts - doesn't need a point - some EWar is irrelevant as it simply will not function against NPCs and some is pointless because there are so many NPCs, (NPC numbers- you have suggested will be reduced).

But the latest changes also take us further from PvP fitted Ships for PvE. We will now be looking at L4 BS's fitting medium guns to counter frigates - and other such things which would be hugely sub-optimal for PvP. (I'm no PvP expert - look at my kill board - but I still have a vague idea of what would be fitted to a PvP ship)

OK.

1) Some people like to grind - I did actually like the old PvE. I knew there would be thousands of badies for me to lay waste to - and I had strategies. On missions where enemies would warp in in waves - I'd need to pay more attention to my drones. Etc Etc. It was comfortable - and fun esspecially to multi-box. It wasn't without merit. If I liked it others will have too. Not to say it couldn't be improved - but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Why not keep these "Battle" missions - just balance them - make drones tougher??? Maybe - less usless - somehow - un-webbable.

2) If there are going to be missions, in the future, that are more like problem solving - high tactics - where you would radically change the fit of your ship from one mission to the next. . . Well why not call these "Adventure" missions for those who might like this style of content. I mean - you are going to have to build these new missions from scratch anyway. So why not add them as a new type of thing?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#436 - 2013-01-22 19:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Funky Lazers wrote:

CCP didn't test enough or did not test at all the last NPC AI. We all know the result.



Same thing happened with Incursions which got absolutely crushed especially in lo/null sec with the Escalation nerf.
The TD thing reminds me of what happened with OTA sites except what they did to those sites was on purpose so they did not admit that it was an error for 3 months. What you got going for you is that there is an admission of an bug whatyou gotgoing against you is that the old mission code appears to have been written for a certain playstyle now which has been changed & DEVs are looking for some hay in a needle stack

So when is sleeper PvE going to be 'touched' so they can join the ranks of the other PvE's to be nerf hammered?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#437 - 2013-01-22 19:41:28 UTC
Forgive this, not intentionally trolling or ranting and a bit off topic but if you want to talk about things not being tested or understanding how they are used.... the best example was the "inventory system overhaul" that they FINALLY just got back usable recently with opening cans in space again and ship inventory as well and now with persistent and logical windows in the stations again.

(Also see, removed ship spinning debacle)

... back on topic,

The drones were never intended to be targeted unless a spawn got you wrong that's why they are so weak and expensive, that was your check against doing a mission without paying attention to them.

Earlier in this topic I posted what I think would help out and had a discussion with another Gallente about the nature of the problem I would encourage people to refer back to it. I do not think I or We were radically off on what we were saying. (page 20ish?)

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson
Mund Richard
#438 - 2013-01-22 23:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Hmm... That sounds familiar...

Whoops, I've put the reply in a "to-do" list, and my dog ate it (completely forgot about it Oops).
Bedlin wrote:
Okay you are STATING: "NPC Frigate 1: "I can shoot his drone if I want to, but I am going to keep my web/target painter on that big Dominix"
I didn't understand that was what you were going for... yes that does seem like that would HELP the situation, but it won't fix the problems. I do like it as a start though.
Umm... yea... sure... that was totally what I meant.
Nah, it wasn't, but I like your take of it.
I don't exactly like how currently drones work as "chaff", stop shooting, release them, scram frigs are off of you, warp out.
One reason drones die easy, is that their sig is smaller than a battleship's, so if elite frigs try to choose the smaller hostile entity, and then scram+web it, that drone will never make it back, unless it was really close to scooping range
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
If a drone has aggro from a rat, other rats [should] pick a different drone, or stick to the ship. The main problem comes when 5 or 6 rats all switch to one drone. If you're not paying attention, you'll eventually lose them all.

A more substantial increase in HP and resists for T2/faction drones wouldn't hurt.
Aaand that's the other one, flying only one ship, I get the full room swap to sentries, and with occasionally 10+ battleship 10+ cruisers, that's enough for one blinking (or mom/significantother agro) to be fatal, even if one manually keeps using the weapons and not only have drones on aggressive go play while afk.

The two suggested fixes combined would help A LOT, and WITHOUT making drones afk-"manageable". You'd still need to look after them, just not watching 5+ bars like a hawk.
Question is how much help is needed.

You said my proposal would help, but not fix, I'm curious if the two would be enough to get the situation fairly under control, would only know if we'd try on the test server. And try a lot, a few randomly picked missions with a (somewhat-random?) AI are meaningless.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#439 - 2013-01-22 23:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bedlin
Well really the purpose of this thread it to have (THE COMPANY) look at it and rethink the issue, they could use some of the ideas here or come up with an even better fix or give up like the original poster wants and roll it back.

It's not my place to see what is the best to fix the issue, but I do hope they are "adamantly concerned and actively looking into it, with hopes to have it fixed "soon"."
(Hey devs if you would post in here you can even use my quoted comment there to give us some feedback.)
Big smile please? Smile really? Sad something?

okay Cry

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson
Tebb1288
Firework Industries
#440 - 2013-01-22 23:22:59 UTC
I've stopped missioning since this change. If npcs are going to attack drones then drones need more hp. Even if I recall my drones the second they start getting hurt, I more often than not lose at least one before they make it back to my drone bay.

Drones have become more expensive to use than benefit they give.