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T3 Production Profitability
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Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#21 - 2011-10-12 12:10:59 UTC
T3 bps and T3 component bps do not benefit from higher ME levels.

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iNFoRMaLiTY11
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-10-12 12:45:00 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
T3 bps and T3 component bps do not benefit from higher ME levels.


Thank you.

Also, eveiph, awesome work.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-10-12 14:39:00 UTC
iNFoRMaLiTY11 wrote:
I
Is there any other reason people would be willing to take losses of ISK in T3 production compared to selling raw materials?.

Cargo capacity?


No, actually, the most profitable raw materials don't take up much space. Then again gas has a pretty large volume but to react it requires minerals and other products from other production lines. There's nothing straightforward in T3 production.

Storage is a benefit but not a motivator unless you like burning more fuel than you need to be or you don't mind sacrificing POS defenses. In w-space noone can hear you scream so defense is rather important.

Quote:

Steady buyers?
- I.E. if i have a guy who is willing to buy x amount off me regularly for reduced price i sacrifice little bit of profit for comfort of stability. If my steady buyer gets em off for resale is hauling his problem?
Fun?


Lets see, I've got such and such subsystems with a negative profit, I want a steady buyer why? Or I've got such and such subsystems with a 5% profit and I'm going to cut that further? I don't think there is enough profit potential here to discount your prices in order for someone else to realize a profit.

Quote:

- Perhaps someone just likes to build everything from scratch and it adds a level of depth into game. Besides giving something to do when your corpies are not logged on (industry tab clicksies).


No argument here. If people just want to do it to do it then profit is not a motivator.

Quote:

Overlap of skills?


Can't speak specifically since i'm not an indy type. I was just researching T3 production since I live in w-space. What I can tell you is that if you want good reverse engineering skills then it will take you 3 months. If you want perfect skills then you're looking at over a year of dedicated training with attributes remapped specifically for it. The actual production skills are another 2 months to be able to produce subsystems for all races and probably another 3 months to be able to produce all racial T3 hulls. It's a rather hefty investment for the pitiful profit to be had, IMO TBH.

Quote:

And your own point on single subsystem profitability.
- If one subsystem is profitable compared to hull/other subs, how does that affect the volume of your sells? Will people buy complete T3 more often (and at bigger price than hull + subs separatly, especially rigged) than slapping their own T3 together.


Here is an example, it is not true to the data so lets pretend since I can't be arsed to bring up my spreadsheet atm.
Tengu Electronics Subsystems has 4 subsystems. One of them has a 23% profit. The 2 others have < 5% profit. And one has negative profit. Their average profit is 6%. Great! So lets just make and sell the one with 23% profit. No can do. Reverse Engineering for the Tengu Electronics Subsystems is chance based meaning you have a 1 in 4 chance of actually reverse engineering that one profitable subsystem. Actually you have a less than 1 in 4 chance of producing that subsystem because there is also a chance of failure but we're just going to ignore that for simplicity. So, you will have invested about 80mil - 100mil in reverse engineering using malfunctioning relics to get that one BPC with a 23% profit and you have 3 other BPC's that aren't worth the time to run them. That 23% profit is actually lowered because you just spent 4 times the isk you needed to spend in order to get that one BPC.

Don't ban me, bro!
iNFoRMaLiTY11
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-10-12 15:45:00 UTC
Well that was informative. I did not know it was THAT dependant on chance i always thought its similar to T2 invention where in the case of one item with several T2 counterparts you can choose the output. On rifter bpc you can choose wheter to invent jaguars or wolf for example. But i didnt know its not the way it works for T3.

As far as skills go. Well i do have a thought, im willing to bet that the amount of skills is due to the reasoning that eve is multiplayer game and people should incorporate several characters into the manufacturing/reverse engineering/etc skills, at least in the beginning. I.E one guy does some things other guy does other. Also the year training time id hedge on the fact that if you could do everything in day 1 then where is the progression? Train skills to do more stuff faster and better is the way i see it. Besides wh space was developed partly as an alternative pve end game experience option. Since higher class wh-s require a decent group effort to clean up the combat sites i would say its pretty normal that the industrial part of it is meant as a group activity as well. After all even reacting gases is meant to be done in a pos which is essentially designed for corp level asset handling not individual level.

My best guess on T3 profitability then is only market speculation gone awry and someone(s) trying to pull out. I.E somebody bought a lot of T3-s some time ago and now is trying to get rid of crap to turn their hangar content into cash, any cash at all and is willing to take a dive on prices as long as he/she can get rid of stuff. Could this be the reasoning? Cause if so could the T3 production still suck after x amount of time when peoples stocks of T3 hulls and subsystems i.e. supply is potentially lower?
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-10-12 19:57:00 UTC
iNFoRMaLiTY11 wrote:

My best guess on T3 profitability then is only market speculation gone awry and someone(s) trying to pull out. I.E somebody bought a lot of T3-s some time ago and now is trying to get rid of crap to turn their hangar content into cash, any cash at all and is willing to take a dive on prices as long as he/she can get rid of stuff. Could this be the reasoning? Cause if so could the T3 production still suck after x amount of time when peoples stocks of T3 hulls and subsystems i.e. supply is potentially lower?


I don't believe that to be the case. People in this thread and in my own corp insist the items we get during sleeper farming that can be used for T3 production are "free". So, there are quite a few people out there producing subsystems and hulls under that premise.

Don't ban me, bro!
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#26 - 2011-10-13 20:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
Mr Kidd wrote:
I just analyzed the hulls, none of them are profitable.

Even more depressing.

And still, some people I talk to insist that there is profit because you get the components yourself. Why can't I make them understand the fallacy of that?

Many people are like that, they do not see the value in logic-ing out a decision and just decide they're going to do something based on other factors (is it cool, does it sound fun, etc..). So when you try to attack their justification for doing something, it's like punching air, there was nevery any actual justification in the first place, just whim. Then they realize their judgement is being questioned, and the important thing to them is that they prove themselves right, so you start getting straight-out-of-the-ass arguments like "I mined it so it's free!".

Edit: to be clear, "because it's fun" is a perfectly fine reason to do something in a video game. You just gotta be straight about it, it's a reasonable position as long as one is honest that they're trading some percentage of their income for that gratification, rather than throwing out smokescreen that boils down to "goods don't really have a market value".
Hentes Zsemle
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-10-15 18:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hentes Zsemle
What the guy before me said, you shouldn't look at the sell orders for your calculations. While in theory , you could sell your materials through sell orders, the reality is that about 1% of the total volume traded goes through sell orders in trade hubs(a very optimistic guess even). It would take so long to do it, that you would have to factor the time it took to produce said profit, making that option not worth it at all.

edit: btw, there are a lot of "i mined it so it's free" sort of people out there, but not nearly enough to mess with the dynamics of the market.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2011-10-16 16:42:40 UTC
Hentes Zsemle wrote:
What the guy before me said, you shouldn't look at the sell orders for your calculations. While in theory , you could sell your materials through sell orders, the reality is that about 1% of the total volume traded goes through sell orders in trade hubs(a very optimistic guess even). It would take so long to do it, that you would have to factor the time it took to produce said profit, making that option not worth it at all.

edit: btw, there are a lot of "i mined it so it's free" sort of people out there, but not nearly enough to mess with the dynamics of the market.


I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to indicate here other than exactly what you have said. Sure, using Jita price is a convenience for analysis. I'm not pretending to have done an exhaustive analysis of a wide range of markets. On the other hand, my analysis did consider at least one other market, also a trade hub. Honestly, I'm not that plugged into API calls and the like. So it is by hand.

However, I will say, having to travel around to multitudes of regions to sell my goods is not acceptable for my purposes. Can you maximize profit? Absolutely. Except now you have a large time component that makes even a 15% gain over what could be had in trade hubs more or less pointless as you could have spent that time participating activities that are more profitable to begin with (farming sleepers). It all comes back to mass production. If one is setup to mass produce these items then one might avail themselves of differences in various markets and it might be worth one's time to do so. In a mass production situation one would have the number of available items to make the travel time worth one's time. I'm not whole-sale discounting that fact.

I'm still looking at this problem in various ways to determine the most profitable means to do this. I'm not giving up on it, yet.

Don't ban me, bro!
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