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Aggroing of drones with new NPC AI....

Author
Toi Algaert
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-12-05 13:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Toi Algaert
I cant deal enough damage if i tank and i cant tank if i do enough damage, whoaa drones dude, ill skill my drones and i get a decent balance a week later yeah this is cool...

Retribution is now installed... your drones are now useless.

Thanks for you monthly subs and taking it with no lube !
ashley Eoner
#122 - 2012-12-05 13:28:26 UTC
Wow I really can't even mission in my rattlesnake anymore. Drones end up getting shot almost from the second they hit space so I barely even have time to get them targeted so I can RR them before they pop..
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#123 - 2012-12-05 13:41:48 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Have you tried fitting a TP or ECM to your drone boat?


TP, web, ecm, ecm burst , remote rep ect ect.

They can and do pull aggro off, which doesn't help your dead light drones because you launched them within gun range of a million npc frigs and they got alpha'd.

In incursions most sites have frigs spawn away from you and approach, so you can blap them with artillery Machs in many cases. Regular missions and other content many times have frigs spawn right on top of you, under your gun and if you launch light drones, those drones are inside the npc frigs gun range.

Nothing that can't be over come (by simply not using drones but using webs and/or a supporting FoF missile Tengu lol), but it was an annoying and unnecessary change.

A more proper progression from ccp would be

-Fewer but more powerful pvp-like npcs in pve content
-mission, complex redesign with fewer more powerful npcs in mind
-THEN and ONLY THEN new AI/behaviors for mission and comp-lex npcs

But of course ccp started with the last thing they should have done 1st, and while not game ending, it's seriously annoying. Annoying is bad in a video game.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-12-05 13:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
OK, I'm gonna say something.

1. Those of you suggesting people don't use heavies, or don't send them far. Realize that drone boats are supposed to have damage projection and flexibility. If you can't send a heavy far, you have no damage projection. Further, if we're not meant to send drones far, why even have Drone Navigation Computer modules? If you have to carry replacements for drones, and drones are meant to be destroyed, that also cuts into your flexibility, as you'll be carrying identical drones in your bay. If both are true, drone boats no longer have projection nor flexibility. Which means all drone boats need to get +1 slot to their layout, since they lost one for that supposed projection and flexibility. Sentries don't count, as they have zero mobility.

2. I understand EWAR (such as TP) may be necessary to get aggro off of drones. But I only accept this as fair if and only if ALL other weapon systems also require TP to function. Until this is true, drones are unbalanced and need a buff. Also, considering point 1 above, drone boats have -1 slot, and EWAR may be hard to fit.

3. Drone boats are still split weapon systems for the most part. That is, hybrids + drones. There are no "drones only" ships. And yet, Drone Damage Aumentors and turret/missile damage augmentation modules compete for the same slots. Whereas a "pure" weapon system, where all of the ship's weapons are the same type, need just one module type. And yet, drone boats are the ones with -1 slot in their layout?

4. And finally, if drones are to be throwaway destructible, all ships with drone bays have to have their drone bay increased significantly. Too many ships have only enough bay for a single flight. Case in point, the Drake. And drone manufacturing costs reduced significantly.
Cambion Andedare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-12-05 13:51:58 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
OK, I'm gonna say something.
4. And finally, if drones are to be throwaway destructible, all ships with drone bays have to have their drone bay increased significantly. Too many ships have only enough bay for a single flight. Case in point, the Drake. And drone manufacturing costs reduced significantly.

I completely agree with this.

About the dronebay size, maybe letting them be reloaded from cargo could be a small (temporary) fix.
DeathDyke
Involuntary Salvage LTD.
#126 - 2012-12-05 13:54:12 UTC
Oh hell yea!! I am so glad I stopped in here b4 the C&P forum. This is the powerball jackpot of MOAR TEARS....... ROFLMFAO Twisted
ashley Eoner
#127 - 2012-12-05 14:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Have you tried fitting a TP or ECM to your drone boat?


TP, web, ecm, ecm burst , remote rep ect ect.

They can and do pull aggro off, which doesn't help your dead light drones because you launched them within gun range of a million npc frigs and they got alpha'd.

In incursions most sites have frigs spawn away from you and approach, so you can blap them with artillery Machs in many cases. Regular missions and other content many times have frigs spawn right on top of you, under your gun and if you launch light drones, those drones are inside the npc frigs gun range.

Nothing that can't be over come (by simply not using drones but using webs and/or a supporting FoF missile Tengu lol), but it was an annoying and unnecessary change.

A more proper progression from ccp would be

-Fewer but more powerful pvp-like npcs in pve content
-mission, complex redesign with fewer more powerful npcs in mind
-THEN and ONLY THEN new AI/behaviors for mission and comp-lex npcs

But of course ccp started with the last thing they should have done 1st, and while not game ending, it's seriously annoying. Annoying is bad in a video game.
Indeed my standard setup for running level 4s involved me having RR TP etc. Even sitting still and dropping a set of sentry drones can easily result in a dead drone before I get a target in for RR.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#128 - 2012-12-05 14:56:18 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
3. Drone boats are still split weapon systems for the most part. That is, hybrids + drones. There are no "drones only" ships.


Actually my Gila carried no actual weapons except for drones. I was too busy stuffing drone buff modules into it to have any room left for weapons. I did, however, put a couple of light lasers and such on my Myrmidon, just for those pesky frigates that liked to bum rush me. Anything past 10km and it was still all drone work, though. Rattlesnake... y'know I've never actually fired it's missile launchers. Ever. No I guess I never will, either, because all three of these boats - the only three I really flew for L4 missions - have just been retired. Maybe I can find buyers... but I doubt I'll recoup my loss. We're probably going to see the price on all three plummeting real quick.


baltec1 wrote:
Suddenly drone durability isnt such a usless skill to have!


Not really when they all die in the first volley anyway. It's not just that they're drawing aggro - they're drawing mass aggro.

Drones always drew aggro before. A ship under attack would go to help it's buddy. That was manageable, though. You'd be watching your sidebar and as soon as you saw a drone taking damage you knew to click "recall." But now when you launch drones every NPC on the screen starts shooting at them all at once, and all at the same target. One volley and a drone is gone. Next volley, two drones down. And so on.

Drone Durability skill is utterly irrelevant in the face of 1000+ damage alpha strikes coming from fifteen ships at once.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#129 - 2012-12-05 14:56:26 UTC
DeathDyke wrote:
Oh hell yea!! I am so glad I stopped in here b4 the C&P forum. This is the powerball jackpot of MOAR TEARS....... ROFLMFAO Twisted


Considering the tears are coming from paying customers, and the anguish is directed at CCP, not other players, I'm not sure I share your excitement.
CARB0N FIBER
Derailleurs
#130 - 2012-12-05 15:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CARB0N FIBER
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Yeah, you're a little late to the party. There's a 2-month-old whine-a-tron thread, 30+ pages long, in the Test Server Feedback forum about this same issue. Namely new AI and old sucky drones and their clumsy UI. It's too late to complain now, should have done a better job of it earlier before they locked it in for deployment. Now it's too late, we'll have to wait for drone review before it gets better.

Would have just got him banned and his threads locked. Not before all their alts trolled him with darwin crap. It's against the rules to not praise any horrible change CCP wants.
Anna Todako
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2012-12-13 00:44:38 UTC
Okay I'm not usually one to post on forums, but I'm a little confused on how the new AI works. I've played other MMO's before so I understand the concept of threat and aggro, but this new AI doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason to it. It seems to me that instead of an aggro system it just randomly resets targets every so often. I agree that the old once-you-were-targeted-you-had-aggro-forever way was too simple. When your drones go out to attack a ship it makes sense if your drones pull aggro and that ship switches to attack them. What doesn't make sense is deploying your drones and all the ships in space switch to attack them before they even get to a target.

On my last mission I didn't use drones at all until I got down to just 4 frigates remaining. Then I tried to get creative and to keep the aggro away from my drones I split the 7 launchers of my CNR four ways. 2-2-2-1 so that every frigate was taking at least some damage from me. I then deployed my drones to attack them. That should be enough to keep them focused on me right? I mean I'm actively engaged with all 4 so that should keep their attention right? Wrong. Within 5 seconds of my drones attacking one of the frigates, all 4 frigates targeted and ganged up on one of my drones. Like I said it would make sense if the frigate they are attacking switches to targeting them since they are inflicting more damage than I am. However, what doesn't make sense is the other three frigates switching to attack them when I am doing damage to them and the drones are not.

New AI systems can be fun. It can be really interesting to try and come up with new and effective strategies to outsmart and overcome them. However, the complete randomness of this new AI system takes away that enjoyment and replaces it with nothing but pointless frustration. In addition to irritation, it severely diminishes the effectiveness of drones as a method of dealing damage. Thus completely breaking that part of the game. This needs to be addressed.

Just my thoughts.


PS: hmmm...my first post didn't go through so I'm posting again. Hopefully this doesn't lead to a double post.
Pretty GuyYeah
#132 - 2012-12-13 00:54:49 UTC
True. For the drone users who aren't bitter vets and billionaires this hurts.

Post with your main.

A legend walks among us, a genius so significant he so dares to degrade himself as camouflage when you dispute.

Johan Civire
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-12-13 00:57:36 UTC
Chip Whittley wrote:
Anybody else noticing this today? In level 4 missions, in my Domi, I throw my drones out after all npcs lock me, and almost immediately they're switching aggro to the drones, and the drones are dying. Some missions more than others, but it is in every mission. I don't usually lose drones, but I've lost a bay's worth of them just this morning....



Champion read the patch notes perhaps.... There is no afk pve anymore.... AI got more brains..... Jezus high sec players.
Roosevelt Coltrane
Rupakaya
#134 - 2012-12-13 01:12:27 UTC
It's really not a big deal. I havent lost anything but light drones, and I have lost about 5 over 25 missions. About one every 5 missions. And I am a casual hisec player.

The real issue is the interface. New challenge is fine, tools to deal with that challenge that are pure unadulterated s h i t is bad game development.

IMO the community would be MUCH more productive if they focus on insisting on new tools to deal with this challenge (seeing when drones are targeted, seeing drone health in bay, able to use paste to repair in bay, a launch queue for groups, etc etc etc) instead of exaggerating the effect of the new AI.

Irya Boone
The Scope
#135 - 2012-12-13 01:31:51 UTC
hummmm

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2012-12-13 03:35:47 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Release drones, don't send them. When they get aggro, recall them. Wait a sec, then relaunch them. You've now got aggro until the next wave.


That is a bug, a known one, confirmed by CCP. Which leads to 2 questions:

1. When this bug is fixed, what will you do then?
2. If you exploit the current bug, does that count as an exploit, and is it punishable? I don't want to eat a suspension or a ban for this.


It is a known bug which they said is a workaround until they actually get around to fixing all the other problems this new AI has caused. Recalling drones can hardly be considered an exploit.



Waiwaiwaiwaiiiit a minute........so you're saying if I do that then, assuming all rats are already aggroed, the rats won't reaggro my drones until the next wave?
Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2012-12-13 03:45:14 UTC
Roosevelt Coltrane wrote:
It's really not a big deal. I havent lost anything but light drones, and I have lost about 5 over 25 missions. About one every 5 missions. And I am a casual hisec player.

The real issue is the interface. New challenge is fine, tools to deal with that challenge that are pure unadulterated s h i t is bad game development.

IMO the community would be MUCH more productive if they focus on insisting on new tools to deal with this challenge (seeing when drones are targeted, seeing drone health in bay, able to use paste to repair in bay, a launch queue for groups, etc etc etc) instead of exaggerating the effect of the new AI.



YES! And have hotkeys for each drone, i.e. each drone can be managed by using 1-5 keys together with shift, control, or alt to instantly command return to drone bay, return to orbit, or attack.

No matter what though, from now on if you let drones get more than 10-15k away they will be focused down. Since range bonus for drones is not very useful now, maybe Scout Drone Operation could be changed to reduce drones signature radius.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#138 - 2012-12-13 05:56:07 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Yeah, you're a little late to the party. There's a 2-month-old whine-a-tron thread, 30+ pages long, in the Test Server Feedback forum about this same issue. Namely new AI and old sucky drones and their clumsy UI. It's too late to complain now, should have done a better job of it earlier before they locked it in for deployment. Now it's too late, we'll have to wait for drone review before it gets better.


thought they did complain but ccp didnt give a **** as usual

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Angang Ostus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2012-12-17 09:25:00 UTC
The change to drones is a good one, but will require further tweaking to balance everything out. For ships, i.e. arty Maelstrom, that use drones to swat frigates and cruisers that get too close, now they just need to manage the drones more carefully but they can still be as effective as ever in that role.

The broken part is ships like mission/complex running Dominixes/Pilgrims/Vexors/etc. You can't expect them to stay within RR range of their drones when facing NPC blobs. Too much damage and ewar/neuting. PVE ships need damage projection. Ships that just lost that have been broken for PVE. So the solution is to change those ships.

Any ship that is not a dedicated drone ship shouldn't change, but dedicated drone ships need new ship bonuses to deal with this.

Here's my suggestion. Please let me know what you think:

Introduce a new module: Remote Drone Armor Repairer/Shield Transporter.


1) It only works on drones from your own ship. (you can say it's due to special interface)
2) It has long enough range to keep drones alive at longe range.
3) It comes with a new skill that, when trained to level 5, increases the range of the module to match the drone control range of a max skilled pilot using a Drone Link Augmentor.
4) It works like a Covert Ops Cloaking Device: It uses 10,000 CPU and certain ships, such as the Arbitrator, have the ship bonus that allows them to fit it.

With 2 of these repping 5 drones you could get damage projection from drones while keeping them alive, but only if you're paying close attention to the reppers and flying a dedicated drone ship.

Thoughts?
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2012-12-17 10:33:08 UTC
Johan Civire wrote:
Chip Whittley wrote:
Anybody else noticing this today? In level 4 missions, in my Domi, I throw my drones out after all npcs lock me, and almost immediately they're switching aggro to the drones, and the drones are dying. Some missions more than others, but it is in every mission. I don't usually lose drones, but I've lost a bay's worth of them just this morning....



Champion read the patch notes perhaps.... There is no afk pve anymore.... AI got more brains..... Jezus high sec players.


Actually there's a quote somewhere (that my search-fu fails to find yet) that states that afk PvE became easier as a result.

Way to keep up though Blink