Wormholes

Where was this quote at the beginning of the post?

Don't throw up a rager post and then expect people not to pick it apart. [edit] Rager post wrong word; you sounded more like a "hurf durf turn off SDing in shields because somebody denied me a kill" than a "Here's my well thought argument for why I think..."

This is an EXCELLENT post for your position. I still think its wrong, but at least I can respect it now.

Svodola Darkfury.

TL;DR = stfu htfu and sucks to be you

Action: Remove trashing, self-destructing, etc, from (wormhole) POSs
Intention: Force more fights and get more killmails
Near-field consequence: Attackers get more loot out of their victims, resulting in a cycle of violent expuslions of small entities and culminating in ever-increasing loot fishing missions from in and outside w-space
Far-field consequence: Even more blueslisting, batphoning, and consolidation into ever-more fortified wormholes, intensive farmathon excursions by organised smaller entities living out of Orcas, and general desertion of the other 95% of ANY wormhole classes you care to name
Resultant extra killmails: ZERO. People will still log off and if they sally forth, Yamato-style, they are podded to hisec and can die only once per siege.
Denouement: Whining about how 3 or 4 large blobalitions control everything.

Action: Restrict low-end wormholes to small POSs only
Intention: Make life harder for nubs. I guess. Maybe longer-term, remove nullsec coalitions 60 research POS C1 fortress technology farms.
Near-field consequences: More sieges (see above) as nowadays even idiots can provide capable logis via Augorors and everyone can skill into a Oracle with a 1600.
Far-field consequences: Bored large entities faceroll every noob out of C1's and C2's (which are also vulnerable to BS's)
Resultant extra killmails: ZERO. Well, OK, maybe a few slaughters early on, but increasing desertion of low-end w-space because you can no longer refine gas, moon goo, research anything, with even a modicum of security results in C1 and C2 life as being totally uneconomic. Lack of targets then results in fewer killmails.
Denouement: Whining that low-end wormholes are dead.

The consequences of the two things discussed in this thread, under a reasonable expectation of the behaviour of w-space dwellers and predators seen so far being continued into the future, results in desertion of wormholes by noobs.

I have blathered on my blog (if you care to read it; I won't repeat here) about the problems facing wormhole space, and the code of behaviour of the C5 residents, which I think makes wormhole space at that level a great, unique subculture within EVE. Low-end wormholes lack the ability to force fights short of exhausting and, I realise now, completely futile weekend-long sieges.

These sieges result in either complete blueballs (aka Operation Tuts mah barreh) via being blobbed to crap by e-peen waving white knights, insane batphones, etc. or blueballs via people SDing. I have done about 40 sieges in C4 down, including disassembling a real deathstar in a C1 just with 10 Drakes and 2 Scimis, some for Q.Q., some for politics, some to move in, some for e-peen, and the C1 deathstar just to say we could do it. Some were worthwhile - but we only ever got two good fights, and two real pinatas. 90% of the time its just a waste of time.

My conclusion, sieging is sometimes neccessary, always pointless (even political sieges are in the end pointless), and should be totally avoided as you almost never get good fight.

The fact is, you will not get any more PVP or killmails from people via restricting self-destruction or preventing trashing items in the new POSs. If you make it impossible to SD, people will just eject bare hulls into space. Blow them up, no killmails. Don't blow them up, squabble about the ISK and watch people embezzle it. Until you siege out all the farmers and steal their crap,and they don't come back. Tragedy of the commons - read up on it.

To make w-space more viable, you need the noobs. Making it so they can't put up a well-defended POS which is difficult to take out isn't the answer. This will result in smalls in C1's being rolled by sniper BC gangs backed up by T1 logis. Mediums? Same deal, just add more logis.

If you drop larges out of C1's you make small (10-20 toon 3-7 meatbod) starter corps vulnerable to each other on a weekend-ly basis. Right now, you have to be experienced, rich, bored and annoyed as a small entitty to take on a C1 deathstar. You can do it with 12 toons; I have. But small POSs in C1's, you can take them out with 6 sniper BC's and 2 logis (depending on ECM) in 2 hours, and small dickstars with 1 Ishtar in 4. Done it AFK. If you can only anchor a small, you will have no way to defend yourself against even disorganised noobs.

As someone said, people somehow expect PVP to fall into their lap. Or great wads of cash from sieging someone out. It is frustrating to see someone SD their stuff, but it is just the way it is. Changing things as above, in my book, will result in less to do in the most deserted, boring space outside of TEST/Goons nullsec.

I've never seen anyone ship down to fight nubs and get a fight. You just deploy some bait, then blob with T3's.

Well the pos will usually be **** caged with bubbles so they will only be able to do this once.

You generally don't just let them come and go all throughout the siege.

Nope 3 larges and you can't warp in or out, it may be 4 i don't remember...

It is fun for the attacker, but you are lending no credit to the measurable "fun" of the completely out numbered defender, who has no chance and can take one small minor "victory" so to speak by self destructing their valuables in front of a camping fleets' tired, yet eager faces.

That can be fun, sure it is at the expense of the attackers, but keep in mind, to the out numbered (which is the goal of every attacker ultimately in EVE) its all they stand to get out of it.

You mentioned you are of the opinion that POS bashing will not grow in popularity that much with less asset denial but I have to disagree.... One of the only real things discouraging it more bashes on the large is the fact that sane people see no real value in it. Change that by making a long boring weekend of camping a tower worth a few rations of the spoil and that may change.

For me, w-space needs to foster homesteading for the smaller corps and units to the fullest in order for it to continue to be successful. Unfortunately, self destructing is sometimes all they have in the face of superb adversity and to take that way I think would be a two pronged problem. It would take that tiny little meager win moment away, and more importantly, stimulate more invasions (which require lots and lots of dedicated bodies fighting in unison) which would ultimately promote power blocks as the only real way to permanently live in a hole.

Nevertheless, I do agree with your final statements in that without a doubt mechanics are going to change in interesting ways once those POS initiatives get into going. I for one, hope they protect the spirit of wormholes to the fullest.