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Future of marauders?

Author
Tanith YarnDemon
Hypernet Inc.
Umbrella Chemical Inc
#21 - 2012-12-03 09:25:03 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

Not true. It was empirically proven that sensor strength did affect NPC ECM jamming. The 'NPC ECM is chance based' misconception got started with a bad statement by a CCP dev a long time ago.

Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't really matter point is it NOW uses sensor strength and does so effectively putting marauders at a huge downside.

Quote:

Vargur has firepower equivalent to the Mach. However, the Mach as speed and agility which means that for every ~11km close the Mach is to target, its effective DPS goes up 10% over the Vargur. MWD Mach for the win. Also, the Mach/Vargur kill things so quickly that drone dps is pretty meaningless.

Definitely not meaningless, for vargur and medium drones, yes, I agree, the drones are nearly pointless. For mach and sentries, there's no reason not to drop them off on the exit gate before positioning yourself.

Quote:

The drone poo and loot nerfs hurt a bit. Salvage prices dropped. Last I checked, running another mission was more profitable than making a Noctis run.

It is, but people still use noctises which brings the income of the marauders down. Not advocating the noctis, just pointing out that they cause marauder usefulness to decline. I meant to explain the stared part as it's kind of twofold. Less loot and less bounty means LP is even more important than it ever was, the LP/Hour is better for faction bs than for marauders which kind of helps the non-marauders. However, bounty/h is also better for the non-marauders, so it hurts both, just hurts marauders a tad mroe.

Quote:
Well... maybe, maybe not. The Missile and TP changes in Retribution might make the Golem useful again, especially when/if the 'tarcking mods' affect missile explosion radius and/or range feature goes in. (Sometime after Retribution.) Post retribution, a Golem will need 0-1 TPs for battleships and ~2 for elite cruisers (IIRC.) Torpedo range is still the main sticking point.

And then there's the recent comment by a Dev that the Mach's fallout got double buffed when two devs didn't coordinate on the falloff bonus and the TE changes. So the Mach (and Vargur) may get nerfed when battleships undergo tiericide.

Possible, commenting on what is, not what's to be. Golem is however pointed out as somewhat of an exception as there is no faction counterpart to it(However even being best in line doesn't necessarily mean best tool for the job - or any job). And as you point out the changes tot he mach/vargur hurts them both and is still nothing but a random dev comment(sorry for my lack of hope ;)). But sure, when tiericide reaches battleships marauders may become useful again.
Alara IonStorm
#22 - 2012-12-03 09:58:36 UTC
I think they should start by increasing the Sensor Strength, add 25m3 Drone Space but not Bandwidth for Salvage Drones (Can be used for spares as well but whatever.).

Second they should take a peak at the bonuses.

Paladin: - Web Bonus + Apoc 7.5% Opt Bonus
Kronos: Dunno if they want to go Blasters or Rails. I think they should reduce MWD Cap Consumptions for Battleships so they run almost as long as a 10mn on a Battlecruiser. - Web + 10% Falloff for Blasters or 10% Opt for Rails.
Vargur: as is.
Golem: - TP Bonus. +15% Flight Time, 5% Explosion Velocity modified to 7.5% Explosion Velocity. The extra range lets you use the new Rigor Rigs instead of Range Rigs combined with the increased Expvol with a marginal drop in Painter Effectiveness.

Those would be my personal changes. Web and such bonuses are nice but I think this would bring these ships out.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#23 - 2012-12-03 10:04:53 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I think they should start by increasing the Sensor Strength, add 25m3 Drone Space but not Bandwidth for Salvage Drones (Can be used for spares as well but whatever.).

Second they should take a peak at the bonuses.

Paladin: - Web Bonus + Apoc 7.5% Opt Bonus
Kronos: Dunno if they want to go Blasters or Rails. I think they should reduce MWD Cap Consumptions for Battleships so they run almost as long as a 10mn on a Battlecruiser. - Web + 10% Falloff for Blasters or 10% Opt for Rails.
Vargur: as is.
Golem: - TP Bonus. +15% Flight Time, 5% Explosion Velocity modified to 7.5% Explosion Velocity. The extra range lets you use the new Rigor Rigs instead of Range Rigs combined with the increased Expvol with a marginal drop in Painter Effectiveness.

Those would be my personal changes. Web and such bonuses are nice but I think this would bring these ships out.


Yeah, I agree about the changes. Especially about Golem needing range and Kronos.

Personally I'd also add more drone space to every ship, not because of salvaging drones but for heavies and other things.

Whatever.

TomyLobo
U2EZ
#24 - 2012-12-03 12:09:25 UTC
Marauders simply got nerfed way more than was deserved in the first place. Sensor strength, resist and overall hp is below average compared to even T1 and this is for a ship that's meant to be significantly better than it's T1 counterpart in most areas.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#25 - 2012-12-03 13:32:58 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I think they should start by increasing the Sensor Strength, add 25m3 Drone Space but not Bandwidth for Salvage Drones (Can be used for spares as well but whatever.).

Second they should take a peak at the bonuses.

Paladin: - Web Bonus + Apoc 7.5% Opt Bonus
Kronos: Dunno if they want to go Blasters or Rails. I think they should reduce MWD Cap Consumptions for Battleships so they run almost as long as a 10mn on a Battlecruiser. - Web + 10% Falloff for Blasters or 10% Opt for Rails.
Vargur: as is.
Golem: - TP Bonus. +15% Flight Time, 5% Explosion Velocity modified to 7.5% Explosion Velocity. The extra range lets you use the new Rigor Rigs instead of Range Rigs combined with the increased Expvol with a marginal drop in Painter Effectiveness.

Those would be my personal changes. Web and such bonuses are nice but I think this would bring these ships out.

The Kronos wants to be good with Blasters - the web bonus, the Megathron hull; it just looks at you as if to say "I can haz Neutrons plox"...
But even with Neutrons, Null and Fed Navy webs it takes forever to run a lot of missions with it solo, simply because you're spending so long travelling between targets, running an MWD and also having to tank (which isn't good for the cap).

In other people's missions, as a damage plough, it can be awesome however, because the targets are orbitting them rather than you and there's a lot less trundling around, simply web a couple of big BS, close and melt their faces then move on. Of course that changes with Retribution and the "improved 'rat AI"...
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2012-12-03 13:55:10 UTC
I honestly dont care if its bad or not, the new vargur model makes me want to fly one right goddamn now. Cool

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#27 - 2012-12-03 14:34:39 UTC
I really dont care about the salvaging, collecting tags is what I want to use marauders for.
Norris Packard
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2012-12-03 19:49:04 UTC
The reason that I have never flown Marauders on live server has been because they are not even as good as a standard battleship for pvp. Marauders should not only be pve boats but also good for pvp. The Navy and Pirate ships way outshine the Marauders.

Marauders should have standard battleship level sensor strength and scan resolution. They have three lovely utility slots in their highs that would be nice to fit battleship level mods in and that alone would make these ships much more powerful in pvp combat situations. They are still very expensive ships and so the risk of fielding one is very great but giving them enough grid to field any weapon system and utilities would entice pilots to bring them to the field of pvp.

Honestly I would also like to see more variety in all of the tech2 ship lines and would like to see more ships within a class ( ie. a second Marauder, BO, EAF, HIC for each race).
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2012-12-03 20:16:50 UTC
Every ship in the game is getting a balancing pass with tiericide.

Moderators, can we put a stop to these threads please?
It'sNotMyFaultYourMother ThrewYouAway
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-12-03 20:28:52 UTC
Norris Packard wrote:
The reason that I have never flown Marauders on live server has been because they are not even as good as a standard battleship for pvp. Marauders should not only be pve boats but also good for pvp. The Navy and Pirate ships way outshine the Marauders.

Marauders should have standard battleship level sensor strength and scan resolution. They have three lovely utility slots in their highs that would be nice to fit battleship level mods in and that alone would make these ships much more powerful in pvp combat situations. They are still very expensive ships and so the risk of fielding one is very great but giving them enough grid to field any weapon system and utilities would entice pilots to bring them to the field of pvp.

Honestly I would also like to see more variety in all of the tech2 ship lines and would like to see more ships within a class ( ie. a second Marauder, BO, EAF, HIC for each race).


Reason sensor strength is low is to avoid exactly this. CCP does not want Marauders in PVP. Simple as that. In fact, it doesn't seem they want any T2 battleships to PVP. Including the Blops! xD
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#31 - 2012-12-03 20:48:17 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Every ship in the game is getting a balancing pass with tiericide.

Moderators, can we put a stop to these threads please?

The promise that things will be taken a look at in the future does not mean discussion and speculation today is meaningless.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#32 - 2012-12-04 13:34:24 UTC
It'sNotMyFaultYourMother ThrewYouAway wrote:
Reason sensor strength is low is to avoid exactly this. CCP does not want Marauders in PVP. Simple as that. In fact, it doesn't seem they want any T2 battleships to PVP. Including the Blops! xD

Not quite true, certainly they don't want Marauders to become soloPWNmobiles and that the intention would be that they be used for PvE - but I recall devs expressing not only surprise but also delight when they discovered that the Kronos in particular was being used in PvP (and IIRC at that time more heavily in PvP than in PvE).
Sarmatiko
#33 - 2012-12-04 14:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Rammes lol wrote:
Agreed i fly the Kronos and i thought it would be more shock and awa. insted left a big whole in my wallet as well as my spiritCry yea its kool that i can salvage and loot but no real reason to have one. now you saying it needs a buff but what are u going to buff on it?



  • Additional utility slot for salvagers\tractors.
  • Similar to Noctis role bonus dependent from Marauders skill level "5% bonus to Tractor Beam and Salvager cycle time and 60% bonus to Tractor Beam range and velocity per level" (instead of outdated bonus to STB range).
  • T2 resists.

Also Revorb Target Painter needs to be reintroduced as battleship module. Then we can choose between increased DPS or salvaging/looting.

Gingerlord wrote:
I don't understand why we can't have T2 resists on our Marauders

Because then some heretic might use it in PVP. Or even worse - teams will use it on Alliance Tournament, once in a year Big smile
Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#34 - 2012-12-04 14:50:48 UTC
Thoughts on rebalance, as a pilot who flew Marauders for a while, trained Marauders 5, etc:

-All Marauders get increased sensor strength and scan resolution. This is not only a balance issue but an immersion one, as I don't believe anyone, even the Minmatar, would want to create an advanced, upgraded version of a ship and stick sensors from an old broken-down pre-warp mining barge into it. Not to mention I don't see any reason that Marauders should not be more viable for PvP, even though they are intended as kings of PvE. CCP is trying to make PvE more like PvP anyway, so why not?

-All Marauders become better on-the-go-salvagers, via increased tractor range and better salvaging speed or chance of salvaging. Because I am *not* flying all the way over there --> to get in tractor range of that wreck when I could come back and tractor it in a noctis or ignore it entirely.

-All Marauders have their shield and/or armor resistances rebalanced.

-All Marauders get an extra 50 drone space and drone bandwidth.

-Vargur gets powergrid buff from 9875 to 12225. To fit a Vargur with even faction 1400mm Howitzer artillery at the moment requires way to many powergrid mods. You'd still need some with the extra 2500 powergrid but it would open up the 1400s as a more viable option.

-Golem gets either increased range, or a further bonus to damage. On other ships, you have to balance damage and damage projection, so I don't mind this being the case with the Golem, but the RNI should not be such a significantly better time investment than the Golem.

-Vargur gets a minor increase to speed and agility; certainly not as fast as the Machariel; as that is supposed to have all the old Jovian tech and whatnot, but at least enough to justify it as a Minmatar battleship. Kronos should get an increase to base speed or a bonus to MWD energy consumption as well.

-Kronos gets a 5% range bonus per level, or an extra lowslot, or an extra midslot. This would give it one extra slot over other Marauders, so the range bonus might be a good idea instead. Alternatively, a minor buff to railguns; as awesome as they already are; may clear up the issue. At the moment the only railgun ships I see regularly are rail Vindicators in Incursions - outside of that the weapon system seems as if it needs work.

-Golem moves a midslot to a lowslot.

-Paladin is a beast from a statistics standpoint but I have so little experience with it I'm worried about giving any specific advice. I think it would benefit from a powergrid buff to 17250 and a CPU buff to 700. I don't see any major issues with the slot layout or the damage/damage projection.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2012-12-04 19:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Wylde
Vrykolakasis wrote:


-Vargur gets powergrid buff from 9875 to 12225. To fit a Vargur with even faction 1400mm Howitzer artillery at the moment requires way to many powergrid mods. You'd still need some with the extra 2500 powergrid but it would open up the 1400s as a more viable option.
.



This this SO MUCH THIS.

It's utterly ridiculous that a ship designed to be able to fit the biggest weapons by only needing 4 hardpoints cannot fit artillery. Especially since arty is so hard to fit on damn near everything anyway, it's practically worthless outside of glass cannon snipers.
Wolfsdragoon
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#36 - 2012-12-04 20:11:57 UTC
Vrykolakasis wrote:


-Paladin is a beast from a statistics standpoint but I have so little experience with it I'm worried about giving any specific advice. I think it would benefit from a powergrid buff to 17250 and a CPU buff to 700. I don't see any major issues with the slot layout or the damage/damage projection.


I think you covered what the Paladin needs with the resistance/armor rebalance suggestion. Tank and dps balancing is very difficult on this ship without t2 resists in terms of pvp, especially when the competitor ship is the Abaddon which outclasses it at the moment.

Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
The Burning Contingent Alliance
#37 - 2012-12-04 21:17:34 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:

The Kronos wants to be good with Blasters - the web bonus, the Megathron hull; it just looks at you as if to say "I can haz Neutrons plox"...
But even with Neutrons, Null and Fed Navy webs it takes forever to run a lot of missions with it solo, simply because you're spending so long travelling between targets, running an MWD and also having to tank (which isn't good for the cap).

In other people's missions, as a damage plough, it can be awesome however, because the targets are orbitting them rather than you and there's a lot less trundling around, simply web a couple of big BS, close and melt their faces then move on. Of course that changes with Retribution and the "improved 'rat AI"...



Kronos w/ 425 Rails is the way to go with Javelin for 'close' targets and Thorium for far targets. I never need to move more than 20km from warp in / accel gate.

Sure, a similiarly fit Vindicator does 10% more dps (while using double the ammo) but the Kronos has a 55% better tank.
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