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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

First post First post
Rixx Javix
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#81 - 2012-12-02 20:14:55 UTC

This change makes no sense and hurts the quality of an already struggling low-sec environment.

This is making me angry and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry! Pirate

Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#82 - 2012-12-02 20:30:17 UTC
Cripes, CCP, this is dumb. Yet another thing to ~discuss~ at the summit. RollLol

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#83 - 2012-12-02 20:30:33 UTC
Rixx Javix wrote:

This change makes no sense and hurts the quality of an already struggling low-sec environment.

This is making me angry and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry! Pirate

....Photoshop will be wielded for GRET JUSTISS FOR ALL TEIM


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

The Protato
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-12-02 20:48:03 UTC
IB4 Awarmingcoat's spluttering, red-faced arrival.
Alekseyev Karrde
#85 - 2012-12-02 20:49:10 UTC
I can see why CCP would want all the DED on the same page and would want to put more content into exploration. There was a similar consequence when the 0.0 static complexes went away into exploration.

But it is a kick in the pants of lowsec, especially to small ship PVP. That I don't like one bit.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
#86 - 2012-12-02 20:52:30 UTC

I like 2/10s.
Angron Vail
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-12-02 20:56:38 UTC
ok then, taking away the plexes seems to be inevitable, so now in my boredom 10 miners will die everyday till this is fixed.
The Protato
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-12-02 20:58:13 UTC
Angron Vail wrote:
ok then, taking away the plexes seems to be inevitable, so now in my boredom 10 miners will die everyday till this is fixed.

Oh no, not the miners... Heaven forbid the miners get hurt... Roll
Jeanne Hurt
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#89 - 2012-12-02 21:03:51 UTC
Lets move astroidbelts and stations into exploration content aswell, i hear players make isk in there to.
And ignore all those pirates whining about their center of existence beeing removed. They have no lobby anyway.

*pro nonstatic everything.*
Angron Vail
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-12-02 21:05:01 UTC
The Protato wrote:
Angron Vail wrote:
ok then, taking away the plexes seems to be inevitable, so now in my boredom 10 miners will die everyday till this is fixed.

Oh no, not the miners... Heaven forbid the miners get hurt... Roll

But when carebears cry stuff changes.

But seriuosly, We should do something spectacular to say good bye to our beloved plex's
Chigurh Friendo
Fight The Blob
#91 - 2012-12-02 21:11:16 UTC
I think Sugar Kyle said it best. For reasons relating to the preservation of a unique element of low-sec PvP, I support the OP's position.

Having formally stated my position, I'll nonetheless concede that this system needs an overhaul. Regarding the hi-sec portion, I acknowledge that this content needs to be removed and/or incorporated into the revamped exploration system.

Regarding the PvE aspect of the low-sec portion, I think that the sites are reasonably high reward relative to almost no effort invested. Sites can be blitzed in as little as 5-10 minutes, and the drops are consistently valued at upwards of 20M on the market. Furthermore, the nature of the demand for the items dropped is relatively inflexible, given that some of the modules routinely dropped are among the best frigate-sized modules available in the game... and 'elite' PvPers in EVE demonstrate an uncanny tolerance for costs provided they are giving themselves the maximum threshold of module performance possible (i.e. 'elite' links, 'elite' faction mods, 'elite' boosters, etc.). In other words, this PvE content 'breaks' the supposed 'risk vs. reward' model that CCP is (was?) shooting for. People who routinely farm these sites for profit will either camp alts in the systems in question (especially the low-traffic station-system ones) and then run the site on a timer, since the respawn timing is well-known and predictable. An alternative and similar method I've seen is for people to low-sec system jump around so that they can run each of the sites as they come out of their respawn timer. This method is obviously more risky, but given the precision of respawn and the access restrictions between rooms (without the appropriate keys) the risk is greatly mitigated (again breaking the supposed model). The other 'farmer' type that I'm aware of is the individual who purges the site of NPCs and then sits in the last room after claiming the reward. Risk is again mitigated by the broken inter-room gate-key restriction access model, and these individuals will either go so far as to sit hundreds of kilometers off of the final room landing beacon or they will remain in the site cloaked.

Overall, the farming of PvE content in these static sites is broken. Whereas the first 'offender' is conceivably possible to catch, the window-of-opportunity is incredibly small (exacerbated by gate access restrictions between rooms). The second 'offender' is also possible to catch... most likely involving gate-camps (since these players are predictable and operate on timers) or maybe simultaneous warp-ins... though, again, the window of opportunity is very small. Ironically, I'd say that the third 'offender' type is the easiest to catch, since these players tend to be the most lazy, incompetent, and complacent farmer of the bunch. Often, these players rest assured in 'knowing' that the gates are locked since they were the ones to grab the inter-room gate-keys... In doing so, many of them will blatantly sit AFK in the final room. The fact that this type of gaming behaviour conceivably represents the 'optimal' method of farming behaviour underscores just how broken this PvE content is.

Having ranted and rambled about the poor implementation of PvE content that the static DED complexes represent, let me finally underscore the reasons why I am in favour of keeping this content in the game (within lowsec). For one thing, I don't think it 'hurts' to allow would-be farmers and/or pirates to farm these sites as described provided that this occurs strictly within lowsec. That is, each farming behaviour I've described represents an 'opportunity for player interaction' in the form of either competing for scarce resources and/or engaging in PvP combat. More importantly, however, the static DED plex beacons and gates represent a 'sandbox battleground' that has emerged (emergent gameplay) in lowsec piracy communities. The combination of a clearly dscannable static beacon that imposes warp-in and tactical-warp restrictions creates a unique environment for PvP combat. Indeed, one of the only places that someone can hope to take on an overwhelming number of opposing players (without strictly outclassing their combat vessels) is through careful flying on the pre-entry gate-grid.

Well, hopefully that provides a comprehensive perspective on this issue. If you've made it this far, then thanks for reading.
Seraph Minayin
Tax Haven No. 4009
#92 - 2012-12-02 21:36:01 UTC
Posting to support.

1/10s and 2/10s are great places to find frigate fights currently.

Please don't remove them CCP!

Lemming Fleet - First Admiral

Mane Frehm
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#93 - 2012-12-02 22:56:49 UTC
Pleased to see the response from 3 CSM members; saddened (but not surprised) by the fact that this change came out of tthe blue (or whatever viking colour inspired it).

Being a positive fellow...this is an opportunity for CCP:

a) to acknowledge that this was a mistake and will be reversed (sooner rather than later)
b) to recognize that much of what happens in game and how game mechanics are used is not obvious and that CCP needs to understand the true impact of any proposed change before announcing/making it, and
c) use the various consultation mechanics available to them for all proposed changes, not just some propsed changes

Seliah Aldard
Brief Encounters
#94 - 2012-12-03 02:04:10 UTC

These things really are the lifeblood of some of the lowsec regions
Eta Monakh
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2012-12-03 04:26:59 UTC
+1 , just to add one more vote onto the landslide: removing static plexes is stupid beyond comprehension. It about wipes out all the goodwill I can muster for Retribution.

And that is coming from hi-sec carebear industrialist.

Removing the static DED complexes removes yet one more motivation for hi-sec'ers to venture into lo-sec - not to mention the loss of motivation for the Explorers in the player base.

While personally I'd like to be hi-sec :perfectlysafe: (*duh*), I know that the spice of the game comes from the _necessity_ to venture into dangerous areas - in this case: lo-sec.

If anything, New Eden needs more static entities in lo-sec to fight over and take informal(!) ownership of, not fewer.
Nik Domar
Acerbus Vindictum
#96 - 2012-12-03 04:55:51 UTC
Change like this is very unfortunate. I have fought in those 2/10 plexes many times and I recognize many people who has responded to this thread from those plexes.

These complexes had unique ability to gather frigate/destroyer size PvPers to fight over small prize or just to have a place where combat could happen without interference of larger ships. Main problem of these sites have been related to PvE side of the complex and resulted in complex farming

While trying to fix the PvE side problem, the PvP side of the complex is getting totally ignored. Many non-FW regions do not have any other unique complexes like these for small ship PvP.

Easy solution for this would be to reverse the change and put these complexes back they used to be along with all of their little problems, but maybe there is alternative.

There could be new lowsec feature, where previous issues of these sites would be fixed and their advantages boosted. There are multiple things to take into consideration here

First of all reward of the site should be decent enough to be worth fighting over. If max reward is too low, players won't be as much encouraged to run the site and fight over the loot. If DED loot is going to stay in original 1/10 and 2/10 complexes, something else should be considered here.

PvE opposition could be something like new faction warfare NPC opposition as PvE opposition shouldn't interfere with PvP. Reward should also be non-farmable, so access to the site wouldn't require key to enter and the reward dropping mechanism wouldn't be accessible by just cloaking and waiting for container to drop/structure to spawn/npc to spawn.

Location of the site should be just little bit dynamic. Sites should still be in same system for decent amount of time (let's say up to one week). After time has passed, complex would despawn and respawn somewhere else in same region. Also entry to site itself using acceleration gate could be diffirent, to prevent anyone camping entry point with ships, such as instalock legion/loki, to give better access to site and possible fight with similar sized ships for everyone.

These complexes could also be spawned into areas where there has not been previously 1/10 or 2/10 complexes to farm, but total number should be kept low, to keep reward value high and PvPers more concentrated to certain areas.

Even if this sounds small problem for some of the players, for lowsec people who actually live and fight in the systems where these complexes are located, it is actually very important part of their daily PvP. I really hope something will get done to return or replace old complexes.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-12-03 05:01:35 UTC
Ok As a frequent visitor of the plex in Heild i am angry about this, R1ita practiacaly LIVE in that plex and are always a fun fight. CCP you best think real hard about removing these from low sec, we pirates are fewer in number but we get a ton of blog readers and have our amount of sway.
Akamira Hayate
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-12-03 07:11:48 UTC
Those DED Sites, I really will miss them if CCP really wants to kill them. I had some of my best fights in those sites. Never I will forget the engagement vs a jaguar of an elder player with my very first, poor skilled and somehow poor fitted sentinel which ended in a three minute nightmare of capmanagement in deep structure. On the pve side those DED gave me my path in eve. From highsec treasurehunter to DED ninja in highsec finally to pvp in lowsec. In my opinion, for a solo pilote the risk/rewar of those sites was never too high at least in the lowsec sites. Just enough to keep a stock of t1/t2 Frigattes and maybe cruisers alive over the month.
Well it`s long time ago when I was in highsec last time but last I noticed about DEDs was the increase of afk farmers. Few months ago I first realized them being in lowsec aswell in cloakys.
To be honest the game mechanic of those DED never was the best. Rats were to be handled easy, respawn always in the same cycletime. But lowsec DEDs regulate themself thanks to the existence of Lowsecbrothers and smallscale pvp. The cloakys might be difficult to catch but it`s possible. Otherwise some anti cloaking zone int his sites would help to eliminate the farmer issue in the same way like simply delete statics and add them to Exploration.

Be true to yourself CCP, you just choosed the cheapest and easiest solution without thinking about negative consequences.
We mostly appreciate your fight vs farmingexploits. But your choosen solution is just another kick in the balls of lowsec culture.

Delete them in highsec and add them to exploration contents there, but KEEP the statics in lowsec, really!
Don`t remove static lowsec DEDs!

Toshi Zawa
Mentally Unstable Enterprises
#99 - 2012-12-03 09:01:33 UTC
I support this too. Plexes have been a key focal point of solo/small gang PVP. Taking it out of low-sec is detrimental to this.
The Hatchery
#100 - 2012-12-03 12:11:29 UTC
First it was E-Uni and now CCP ruining the fun. Is there someone to war dec now?