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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

First post First post
Author
Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
#481 - 2013-01-30 11:33:41 UTC
Sad reply better than no reply.

You basically confirmed Fozzi, but there's no way we can twist your arm to put them back in low-sec?

-V
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
#482 - 2013-01-30 12:24:59 UTC
Two months after the thread was started... I'd say that is a big no Volstruis.

I appreciate that lowsec got some love with Retribution, but to say that it has vastly improved small scale frigate and solo PvP would be a fallacy. You see, it's all about the massive fights for CCP, like the lag ball that was Asakai. I'm afraid the lone wolf be whatever you want approach to EVE is slowly dying and no amount reason will ever change that.

But I suppose having Supercaps dropped on my Caracal is something I should get used to instead of finding quality Frigate or Cruiser solo PvP.

[URL=http://novakaneinc.blogspot.co.uk]A Pirate's Perspective[/URL] [URL=http://community.eveonline.com/community/fansites.asp]Official EVE Online Fan Site[/URL]

Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#483 - 2013-01-30 13:53:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, we haven't abandoned reading the thread, but in this case we're not going to be able to give you a specific answer you're happy with.

I can confirm that it wasn't just farming of the highsec plexes that concerned us, we looked at the data for the number of unique characters completing the lowsec plexes as well and that number was much smaller than we wanted.

All I can really say is that we understand that this change removes a focal point for lowsec fighting that was beneficial in a lot of ways, but that the team here believes that when we look back on this change in hindsight later the benefits will outweigh the loss (in the same way that we believe the benefits outweighed the loss inherent in removing the higher tier static complexes in 2007).


Well I'm disappointed to hear that, but thanks for replying again at least.

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#484 - 2013-01-30 13:56:54 UTC
Quote:
Our metrics show there is nothing wrong with lowsec. Bye!

Invalid signature format

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#485 - 2013-01-30 14:22:06 UTC
Thank you for responding and giving us the softly spoken, "These options are not going to be looked at". I don't mean that sarcastically. Being told no is much better then being ignored. I do appreciate that even if we are not to get our way, thank you for not ignoring us until we went away (which we wouldn't have but that's another discussion).

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Swifty Blowback
Doomheim
#486 - 2013-01-30 14:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Swifty Blowback
CCP Fozzie wrote:
However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.

Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.

Thanks for the reply CCP Fozzie, it is very much appreciated and much better than being ignored. However it appears that you've missed the whole raison d'etre of this thread. This thread is all about solo / tiny gang cheap frig / dessie PvP that used to thrive around the DED site systems in lowsec. Quoting "number of kills in low-sec since Retribution" is the wrong metric and is also flawed in many ways (deaths are up across all space, more players logged in, now easier to gatecamp in lowsec etc.) and shows you don't really understand what we've been saying in this whole thread.

As for us poor pilots, the message is now coming through just about as loud and clear as we're likely to get from CCP regarding this, so thank you for that CCP Fozzie, you are a trooper! If anyone is in any doubt at all about what that message is, I'll summarise...

Move to FW space if you want small scale lowsec PvP.

Yeah I know that's not exactly what CCP Fozzie said and he even tried posting stats to say it's not the case (as i said above, the stats are seriously flawed), but actions really do speak louder than words. CCP have / still are (?) putting a lot of effort into FW along with a lack of effort / detrimental efforts to other parts of lowsec. The reality of small scale lowsec (non FW space) PvP for the foreseeable future is that it isn't going to exist.

If I were cynical, I'd say it was done to try to make FW space more populous so that Dust Bunnies will think that's what EvE is really like in all systems. It's a good job I'm not cynical at all.

Now where's that black frog url again...

/thread and /moldenheath :-(
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#487 - 2013-01-30 14:50:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.


Short term increases after a new expansion is nothing new. After the mining barge buff I found a rorq in a low sec belt from some dummy that "came back". That never happened before or since but was a direct result of marketing and so are the increases from retribution.

....and it's not 2007 it's 2013. Learning from the past but not considering present conditions is not a good thing my friend. Think about using that old knowledge and building something with player input to change it rather than just removing crap in the middle of the night.

We're really not telling you this stuff because we just want our sites back or something better to replace it. We're throwing red flags at you that this is bad for EvE and low sec in the long term. That hurts you more than it hurts us.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#488 - 2013-01-30 15:58:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We in Team Five 0 have also been working hard to produce designs that would improve traffic and combat throughout lowsec, starting with all the crimewatch improvements we released in Retribution that improve life for every pirate, and continuing with our designs that were detailed in the CSM minutes. We can't commit to the next stage until we have the theme selection process internally and with the CSM finished, but we're dedicated to building upon what we achieved for lowsec in Retribution.


Low sec shouldn't just be a Pvp arena where you can find tons of frigate 1v1's. Low sec needs more carebear things that can result in pvp to. FW plexes are a good isk source but something more for industrialists and traders should be in their.

Fozzie you should check out the thread in my signature for a way to make low sec more relevant to how the different spaces interact.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#489 - 2013-01-30 16:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One other note: Yes we realize that since Retribution the number of kills in systems like Heild have dropped, and we're not glad about that.

However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.

Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.


yes statistics. A 1vs1 in a plex will never show up in lowsec statistics where most kills are at gatecamps. What made plexes interesting was the TERRAIN. The fact that nobody can bait and warp his falcon, the RR dominix to you or bring more friends without being seen.

Eve needs more terrain. More flying in space, less warping/camping in space. Thats also the reason why i liked the old FW plex design better... but i said this probably already 50 times in all those threads.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#490 - 2013-01-30 16:37:41 UTC
Fozz you people should make static plexses that drop them sec status improving tags that were mentioned in CSM minutes, then bad people will fight other bad people over who will benefit from easy way to fix their bad sec statusTwisted. That way pirates can fight each other and as a reward, instead of module or isk, they get sec status improvement tags. Carebears usually don’t need to be concerned with improving their sec status so for them there is no loss if those plexes are perma camped by pirates. Win, win, win!Big smile

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Vincent R'lyeh
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#491 - 2013-01-30 18:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent R'lyeh
Thanks for the response at least Fozzie even if it's most definitely what we wanted to hear, unfortunately the statisyics you quoted don't lend themselves to the reality of our pirate lifestyles. Many of us have HAD to move to FW space in the hope of getting kills which now often simply results in being blobbed by FW fleets or attempting to fight warp stabbed FW farmers (oh look farming....Roll)

However I await these future changes with the hope that they will allow us to recreate the true pirate lifestyle in low sec that we all in this thread enjoy, unfortunately I don't await it with much hope.

This graphic (created by the illustrious Joe Struck of Joe's Sign-painting, Pinstriping and Tattoos) was going to be saved for the Veto. London Meet but seeing as we've had the response from Fozzie now there's no need:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2192180/two-ten_2.jpg

I have deliberately developed an air of cynicism that I originally intended to make me appear somewhat louche and caddish but actually comes across as irritable hostility combined with the unspoken threat of sudden violence.....

Malfyrion
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#492 - 2013-01-30 22:52:34 UTC
Alas, twenty five pages... 3 dev responses, information that is flawed...little to no actual discussion with the players, just finality and a few vauge so called overall "metrics"... tsch... thanks fozzie for trying to give us somekind of response atleast, even if they left many things to be desired...

Quite frankly though, why did this change HAVE to happen? was the farming in hisec and the occasional lowsec system THAT grave? really ? the worth of these mods where not much in eve standards... it was barely enough so i could keep on pvping in a assault frigg(and if i got lucky) maybe even a daredevil ! but now? now i have to do abhorrent pve content that is (admit it) bonkers boring.

All pve content in eve is FARMING. people farm missions, people farm exploration, people farm fw wich you so adore (may i remind you nigh on risk free if done right ?) people farm EVERYTHING.

The only diffrence this will do is that the farmers will farm them through the exploration system instead, just with the extra hassle of probing them down now, (hell they can do the plexes with the probing ship if its a remotley smart pilot).

And who event wants to use or afford these modules now that they have risen to almost thrice their price in some situations ?

I honestly believe that this whole decision was a rash move by someone with little knowledge that is trying to hide his blunder with flawed metrics and reasoning.

that, or CCP just dont actually dont care what we think, and bulldoze everything to please the carebear HORDES and blobbing majority,

And in all honesty, This "farming" was some of the most un lucrative ways to farm due to RNG and dropchances, in most cases where this was farming happened was maybe a billion a MONTH.

So if the idea was to tackle farming, that kinda failed miserably.

Enough of my angrey ranting now.
Toterra
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2013-01-30 22:55:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One other note: Yes we realize that since Retribution the number of kills in systems like Heild have dropped, and we're not glad about that.

However if you look at all lowsec player deaths not involving a FW member, we've seen an increase of 68% since just before Retribution. That's an average increase of over 1500 kills a day in lowsec without a single FW kill included.

Retribution did not ignore lowsec by any stretch of the the imagination.

We can not possibly argue statistics with you since we don't have nearly the access to sources that you do. However your statistics are misleading you. We on this thread have flown in lowsec before and after the removal. Before there was a great mechanic involving these sites and lots of great fights involving small gangs and solo. After, it is a lot harder to find similar fights (and it was pretty hard to begin with trust me). If your statistics are saying that this community is thriving while everyone in the community is saying something contrary, you are looking at the data wrong.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#494 - 2013-01-31 00:22:04 UTC
As an echo to the others:
Thanks Fozzie for giving us a response, though again I will argue that the stats you're quoting us mean very little.

The kills that you are saying have happened in low sec since the change, how many of them were because of camps or larger fleets? Now with the new system it is very easy to maintain a gate camp and I imagine that larger fleets get more chances to prey on one or two ships at a time. And I am also positive that the occasional 1v1 happens at a planet or at a belt (had one myself last week). But on about these 1v1's, the removal of these complexes has not by any means made them more likely to happen. I have only had one in the last month and a bit. Where beforehand if I tried I could have multiple a day (with almost no effort).

Also as has been stated before, I am fairly certain that all aspects of game play see a rise after a release, and lowsec PVP is likely no different.

Furthermore I imagine that the PVP had at these complexes would be added to the current PVP experienced throughout lowsec. Just think, in heild alone you would be adding over 100 kills a week for your lowsec stats (and again this is using stats from before they weren't readily available in high sec, that # is bound to be higher now). Another issue you have is that the complexes were seemingly only run by a small number of unique characters, well believe it or not that is a issue with most of the lowsec community. In fact, we hate the fact that those of us who dwell there are a small number of people. There is not enough lowsec content to draw those who live in high sec out, or rather, there is not enough content with a good risk:reward ratio that warrants people leaving highsec.

Anyhow, I get the feeling that this will all fall on deaf ears. So for the time being I will find other things to do until CCP finds the time to address this issue in proper.

Again thanks for replying.

Toterra
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#495 - 2013-01-31 04:21:03 UTC
I was browsing the web in firefox and I noticed my bookmark of Brutor BullFighter:Plex Hunter. What a great blog post that was. Advice from that post dominated my gameplay for several months afterwords :(

Ah, the memories... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#496 - 2013-01-31 06:10:32 UTC
Toterra wrote:
I was browsing the web in firefox and I noticed my bookmark of Brutor BullFighter:Plex Hunter. What a great blog post that was. Advice from that post dominated my gameplay for several months afterwords :(

Ah, the memories... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.


Too true.

It was the dream land for any solo pilot, now just a dream.
Andrea Brutale
Bigger than Jesus
#497 - 2013-01-31 06:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Brutale
Just came back to EVE after a extended leave.

I am in full support of the players in this movement to bring the complexes back. Nearly all of my (admittedly very limited) solo PVP experience in frigs and destroyers happened at these complexes. I really never felt very confident in PVP so I didn't participate here much, but I must say this:
When these complexes existed, if you wanted a fight you could get one in less than ten min at peak hours, and still within a very reasonable time frame during non peak hours.

It's disappointing to see that CCP has removed what seemed like such a vibrant community (sorry guys, I only read the first few pages and the last few pages), and I can completely understand the disappointment when one of the best aspect of the game that actually was functioning in low security space is taken away (especially after putting in what seems like a ton of new ships and frig balancing that would have been active at these very complexes).

This was a poor choice in my opinion, in order to see "metrics" (as CCP Fozzie likes to call them) that properly reflect the lowsec complexes, perhaps the low sec complexes could be reinstated, even if only for a bit so that with all the changes (in combination with the removal of the complexes from high sec) a new reliable set of data could be acquired?

Just a thought
Swifty Blowback
Doomheim
#498 - 2013-01-31 08:40:40 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Eve needs more terrain. More flying in space, less warping/camping in space.


So very true. Which is why when CCP remove very popular terrain like the lowsec DEDs, the effect it has is hugely negative. Small scale / solo PvP needs more terrain to help it along, not less.
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#499 - 2013-01-31 09:18:35 UTC
It really does seem like CCP is hell bent on driving us like cattle into the FW blob-zone, or driving us out to null. In this case I propose a much more efficient alternative: Remove lowsec entirely. With no lowsec, and just highsec and nullsec in existence, we will finally achieve the vision of a carebear horde camped in by nullbears, with blobs, blobs everywhere.

It will be totally glorious.

/sarcasm.

Now, seriously, Fozzie, thank you for your reply. However, you (and your co-developers) seem to be missing something: Not everyone wants to fly in fleets and not everyone wants to bend the knee. Not everyone wants to get blobbed in FW land, either. Heck, if I see TiDi in a system, I go elsewhere, because playing in slow-mo is not what I pay my subscription fee for.

This thread is about the unaffiliated space pirates who would fly alone or in small groups. It was a great lifestyle, full of good fights, hilarious ganks and some blue loot worth effectively peanuts (the most common drops were 10-15mil, if anything dropped at all), but keeping us in frigs and dessies. We could enjoy the fights, ganks and tears, while not doing any of the godawful grind that EVE has for PvE to make ISK.

Personally, I could log in for an hour and expect some funny shenanigans to occur rather rapidly. This is now quite gone. Sure, lowsec might have more fights, or whatever it is that your metrics show, but you've annihilated a playstyle and a community from your game. You've taken a niche that we've made our own and nuked it out of existence. In other words, you left a whole bunch of customers very unhappy.

I think that you should dedicate some serious thought into how you should bring back what you took, on terms which are acceptable both to you, and to the community whom you've harmed.

Please take this into consideration.

And as a parting shot: You say that now more distinct people complete these plexes. Great, but the point of a static resource (not much different from Tech moons, just on a far smaller scale, and far less broken) is that the good people can take over it. If the same people manage to get repeated access to this resource, then it is because they are better at it than others (due to being really good at PvP, being online at advantageous times, or being really good at being sneaky campers - it doesn't matter, they are more successful tha). What in effect you have done is penalize the people for being good, in order to expand the amount of people who can access the resource.

1) Penalizing the successful is breaking the sandbox.
2) We don't see you spreading the Techentium moon wealth because OTEC are better than anyone else at hoarding it. However, you seem adamant that a few individuals fighting for measly "farmable" resources in lowsec must be "rebalanced".
3) We don't see you "rebalancing" missions so they cannot be farmed by a semi-afk pilot in a battleship ad nauseum.

What gives?
Adele Godel
The Spawning Pool
#500 - 2013-01-31 10:38:03 UTC
Fozzie, why dont you just share your data with us.