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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

First post First post
Author
Robinton Jax
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#421 - 2013-01-18 14:12:02 UTC
Toterra wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.

Reading through this thread I am amazed at how respectful it is. There are no threats, no raging, just a persistent (mostly) polite reinforcement that removing these sites destroys an emergent gameplay mechanic enjoyed by low-sec players.


This....tbh I think this thread has been the first one I ever posted on, after years of playing....it just hit a button. I play by anti-pirate rules, and by alliance rules I dont talk much in local. Its been nice to see guys you've been fighting against for awhile laying out quality arguments that would help the lowsec community as a whole.

You've got anti-pirate and pirates united in opposition to this change CCP...I may need to go to church heh.
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#422 - 2013-01-18 19:08:19 UTC
SUMMARY FOR CCP
(Sorry if I miss anything..I'll edit it if I do. I gleened a lot of this from multiple threads)


1: We agree that high sec statics were a problem and were overdue for removal. Adding them to the high sec exploration system was a good move and would prepare new explorers for the low sec static gate/pve mechanics. This same "graduation" could be thought about for the hop from 3-4/10s being part of the low sec exploration system and added NPC null statics of those types?

2: We cannot give you other suggestions for "arena" type senarios because these statics are exactly what we would suggest. While the inside of these sites restricted ship types the fights outside the gate did not...wars have been fought over these.

3: We don't agree with the metrics used to judge this feature. Was it the ded loot drops being too valuable and being completed by the same people in LOW SEC?

They really weren't that valuable when compared to farming in high sec. Some of those missions have better faction and implant drop rates than the dangerous low sec statics. In this case, the risk was worth the reward and the carrot was working. On this topic we remain open to changes in types or rates of drops that won't rot the carrots.

Low sec statics being completed by the same people just shows the residents of those systems enjoyed them and our traffic is inherently low because of low incentives...so did the metrics take the normal local count into consideration? These "farmers" are also the people in this thread who regularly recruit people and teach new players with this feature. With the main goal of an "interesting pve experiance" we were the interesting part. Think of us as the interactive "boss in the last room" who may hire you.

4: Would it require too much time to solve the gate issues by just unlocking all of them or adding key drops to the belt rats? Could you guys throw them on buckingham like that so we can help you refine and accelerate the process of "fixing" them?

5: "We feel that as a whole this change will be a net positive, although I completely understand that it may not seem the case to those people who strongly benefited from the previous mechanic." - CCP Fozzie.There were no PEOPLE that strongly benefited from these sites. LOW SEC as a total benefited. Removing this feature and expecting a net postive in low sec is inept...sorry to use that word but it fits and is a reason for some hostility.

6: Any of us not interested in faction warfare will still not join it. I would personally rather do a naked bellyflop into a pit full of pecker eating zombies.

7: We are not taking NO for an answer. You unknowingly broke the camel's back with a lot of us. Considering you have representitives here from all backrounds in agreeement it would be unwise for CCP to ignore this issue or try to steer the conversation to "new arenas" any further.
Baron1499
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2013-01-18 23:32:01 UTC
Good job on the summary Turgesson. I don't know about the whole pecker eating zombie thing, but I would rather play WOW than join faction warfare... never mind that might be just as bad.
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy
Caldari State
#424 - 2013-01-19 06:41:25 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys I appreciate you're really frustrated, but making the thread even more hostile than it already is isn't going to attract the developer attention you're looking for.


Shocked

*Blink*

In my humble opinion, I see a group of dedicated people that have come together to voice their concerns about a feature that they not only enjoyed but some LIVED by. They are frustrated because without notice or discussion, beyond a simple line in an volume of patch notes, that feature disappeared.

We all understand that this is CCP's game and if you so desired you could populate it fuzzy kittens everywhere (don't ask).

All we are saying to you "HEY, WE WERE PLAYING WITH THAT!" and would like those plexes back.

I personally don't think it's game breaking to at least the restore lowsec plexes.

As far as the arena idea, without the"bait", the prey will not come to the watering hole...
"Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes."
Robinton Jax
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#425 - 2013-01-19 19:54:51 UTC
Thanks for the summary Turg, lays it out nicely.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#426 - 2013-01-20 15:14:30 UTC
I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unread


CCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s.

Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#427 - 2013-01-20 16:31:20 UTC
CCP: what if sites like these were cosmic anomalies that popped up on the overview once opened ala FW plexes? No need to probe them down so they can be done while roaming for PVP, can be looked for and done by new players, but they can't be farmed over and over.
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
#428 - 2013-01-20 17:21:29 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unread


CCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s.

Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense.


Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming

[URL=http://novakaneinc.blogspot.co.uk]A Pirate's Perspective[/URL] [URL=http://community.eveonline.com/community/fansites.asp]Official EVE Online Fan Site[/URL]

Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#429 - 2013-01-20 19:11:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Back in the day when most of the DED complexes were moved from static spawns to the exploration system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were left static because it was thought that leaving them accessible for people who had not yet learned how to probe would benefit new players. A happy side effect of that decision (that most of you are very familiar with) was that the lowsec plexes became geographical landmarks that give people a location to fight over to a certain extent.

One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?


IMO, the success of the static 1/10 and 2/10 plexes as combat hotspots was down to a combination of factors:

i) Everyone knew where they were, so you could create roaming routes specifically to hit several in succession
ii) They provided good enough rewards to warrant spending a few minutes running them if there was no one to fight; this meant sitting still in one place and making yourself easy for other people to find, greatly increasing the likelihood of getting a fight
iii) They could be completed in pvp-fit ships, so you didn't have to bring a gimped pve setup or fit a probe launcher if you wanted to run them (which in turn meant that if someone interrupted you while you were running one, you weren't obliged to run away due to being fit for pve)
iv) They were limited in number, so if you got jumped in a plex before finishing it, you couldn't just move a few systems over and farm a different site; you had to either stand your ground or cede the plex and go do something else

To be successful, any potential replacement would have to reproduce all four of those factors; the gated pvp arenas you proposed would fail because they don't have good enough rewards to warrant sticking around to run them if there's no one there to fight.

The idea of replacing them with plexes that drop tradeable tags that could be redeemed for sec status (and/or faction standing) gains is more interesting, although it would depend heavily on their market value. A payout of tags that could be sold for 30-50m would be about right, putting them in the same ballpark as FW small plexes at a decent tier. That would also help to eliminate the regional disparity in the values of the old static plexes, where the blood/sansha/serpentis statics dropped relatively low value deadspace loot (ANPs, SARs, and prop mods, which were typically worth ~30m at most) whereas the gurista and angel plexes could drop much more valuable c- and b-type shield boosters.


I'd also like to address one factual inaccuracy in your post:
Quote:
The benefits of this change [removing the static plexes] will be wider access to the pve content provided by these plexes and hopefully more people exploring lowsec as a whole

This is impossible - under the new system, the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes only spawn in highsec, so there is no way that the change would provide any impetus to explore lowsec.
Olleybear
Armed And Angry
#430 - 2013-01-20 21:35:58 UTC
If the static plexes arent brought back to low sec with anti-farming fixes, I want to be cuddled by the dev(s) that decided to remove them. My inner carebear is broken hearted now and I need some personalized consolation.

Word of warning though. Bear is in my character / corp name for more than one reason and when the dev(s) begin spooning me, they will quickly find out just how hairy my bottom really is.

That mental image alone should be more than enough incentive to get the statics put back in.

Shocked

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.

Robinton Jax
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#431 - 2013-01-21 10:34:33 UTC
Ok Olley, that shite cracked me up. :)
Anthar Thebess
#432 - 2013-01-21 13:45:30 UTC
Well currently CCP actions allowing the low sec to be only barrier to blue booting null - so reducing the "value" to be in null - they shrink this barrier ;)
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#433 - 2013-01-21 18:47:51 UTC
Kane Rizzel wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
I'm fairly certain this is the real reason they were removed:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194411&find=unread


CCP is making the "blue loot" extremely rare to make foolish newbs buy plex to afford it. I don't think I would have to convince anyone that the unrated plexes in low sec have spawn/escalation rates about as good as the anomalies and have been that way for a while. If you doubt me run a string of provisional outposts and let me know what ya get...now run a string of 5-6/10s.

Now I understand the metrics. Predatory marketing at its finest....good job CCP! I'm sure your vets will never notice this type of stuff when you post reasons for feature removals that make absolutely no sense.


Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming



And unleashed a bunch of outlaws on high sec targeting people right inside Tier 1 and 2 of their layered model for customers. They really should edit those CSM minutes better to not let us know exactly where to hit their wallet.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#434 - 2013-01-21 21:16:48 UTC
Turgesson wrote:
Kane Rizzel wrote:

Ooh, on the plus side, at least they stopped 2/10 plex farming


And unleashed a bunch of outlaws on high sec targeting people right inside Tier 1 and 2 of their layered model for customers. They really should edit those CSM minutes better to not let us know exactly where to hit their wallet.


How was it at last fanfest? "We give you tools, you find a way how to abuse them?" :)

Invalid signature format

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
#435 - 2013-01-21 21:57:50 UTC
but in this case it's more like "We take away the tools and then we ignore you"

[URL=http://novakaneinc.blogspot.co.uk]A Pirate's Perspective[/URL] [URL=http://community.eveonline.com/community/fansites.asp]Official EVE Online Fan Site[/URL]

Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#436 - 2013-01-22 13:10:38 UTC
Still waiting for the promised discourse with the developer responsible.

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.

Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#437 - 2013-01-22 16:05:55 UTC
I made that summary the way I would if I had a vendor telling me lies. Give them another week or three to figure out how to outsmart us with more bull.
Primae Nocte
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2013-01-22 19:16:26 UTC
As far as I can tell, after spending 10+ hours scanning. The number of low-sec sites to explore is ridiculously low for North American timezone. This is just a massive minus to low-sec. Don't pretend that there is anything good coming from this change. Please put it back.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#439 - 2013-01-22 20:39:20 UTC
Primae Nocte wrote:
As far as I can tell, after spending 10+ hours scanning. The number of low-sec sites to explore is ridiculously low for North American timezone. This is just a massive minus to low-sec. Don't pretend that there is anything good coming from this change. Please put it back.


While I do appreciate seeing yet another person putting their voice towards the cause (thanks mate!), I do feel that I need to point out that your reasons are not what we are looking for.

Yes it may be true that the number of exploration sites in low sec are not that high, but its not exploration sites we want. Exploration sites are a PVE isk making activity that the bulk of us can agree that we do appreciate because losing ships costs isk. What we want back is our static plexes not because of the PVE aspect, but because of the combat it instills in the area. The reason we like it is because yes it can be seen as a source of isk generation, but it also is for the bulk of us a source of purpose. Something to fight over. Because of the value of these places which remain in one location making them easy for anybody to get to they become a hotbed of PVP. As stated innumerable times before its because of the intrinsic value of these complexes that PVP prospers here in conjunction with their static nature. Removing any one aspect, (static or value) makes removes their viability as a key PVP site. Removing the value from them makes them no better than a asteroid belt or planet, and last time I logged on we had a few of those in space, and removing their static nature makes them like the other exploration sites that we all ready have, yes they do produce PVP, but it is very infrequent and unreliable. Not to mention it always is a PVE ship vs a PVP ship, which is not the kind of fight that we are looking for.

Sylvous
darmwand
Repo.
#440 - 2013-01-22 21:53:59 UTC
I'm somewhat surprised to see that this still hasn't been resolved. I thought the Jita protests would have taught CCP not to completely ignore the players but this looks very much like the good old strategy of doing things that everybody disagrees with and then keeping quiet, hoping that people will just shut up. Sigh.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."