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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

First post First post
Author
Toterra
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#241 - 2012-12-21 20:10:01 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.

* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate.
* Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there.
* They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.

Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.

What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?

I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.



You do fail to understand what is happening here. The reason these PLEXes are so liked is because the provide just enough incentive to check out, but are not really worth farming. They were typically run in a PVP fit ship that ran the site only because there was no fight. I figure when I used to run these that about 1/3 times I would get a fight, the other 2/3 times I would just run the PLEX. Also it was not really viable to camp them with ships like a gatecamp. Just not enough activity to be worth doing that, and since the targets were frigates, they would just be able to escape anyways. This isn't like a stargate on a trade route where there are tons of ships going through looking for a shortcut. The only people who really were likely to show up were other PvP oriented folk in frigates. Lots of great fights.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#242 - 2012-12-23 16:52:27 UTC
Shameless bump just in case some dev had enough of his family and wanted to share his thoughts with us :)

Invalid signature format

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#243 - 2012-12-23 17:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Angelus Ryan wrote:

There's little money or glory to be gained from blobbing a frig, a dessy, or an AF at a plex entrance gate. It is also boring,


Angelus Ryan
Dred Nots

Hmmmmmmmm
Meditril
Forced Content
#244 - 2012-12-23 20:01:17 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

Although I tried to explain to him that there were anomalies and signatures, I think the message comes in the form that beacons with interesting phenomena that are easy to find and interact with are valuable to adding a greater sense of environment for attracting locations of both conflict and profit for younger players who are looking for "exploration light" in the EVE universe without a lot of overhead and scanning and so on. They just want to pick a direction and burn. I know CCP has addressed this in a few ways in the past, but the idea is relevant to enforce and build upon.


I think the above hits the nail!
What EVE and especially low-sec and maybe also 0.0 needs much more are some kind of static stuff which makes systems look different and which provide a reason to fight for them. For example, prior the patch Lulm was hosting a level 2 DED complex. This was interesting for people scouting systems and it generated traffic by those who wanted to use the opportunity to make some ISK. Furthermore, this also attracted pirates who tried to kill those running the plex. This was a very nice eco-system and we need a lot more of them. They should be as unique as possible to provide and attract voyagers.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#245 - 2012-12-26 19:24:01 UTC
Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :)

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Vincent R'lyeh
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#246 - 2012-12-26 19:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent R'lyeh
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :)


But currently full of mince pies & hot buttered rum Pirate

So my suggestion to replace the 2/10 is

'Abandoned Pirate base'

It has an acceleration gate which only lets in frigs/destroyers and inside there's nothing but an abandoned station and a ruined smugglers stargate Pirate

p.s Call the one in Heild the 'Abandoned R1FTA Pirate base' pls

well

that

or

'Pinkiepietopolis'

I have deliberately developed an air of cynicism that I originally intended to make me appear somewhat louche and caddish but actually comes across as irritable hostility combined with the unspoken threat of sudden violence.....

CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
#247 - 2012-12-26 21:55:05 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.

I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.

Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec


To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#248 - 2012-12-26 22:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.

I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.

Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec


To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.


You do realize we are talking about low sec for statics? Also FW is not everywhere nor should it be. If we wanted FW we would go to FW. We do not want FW therefor we do not live in FW areas nor are we speaking of them in this thread.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Vincent R'lyeh
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#249 - 2012-12-26 23:11:39 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.

I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.

Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec


To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.


Poster blatantly hasn't read the thread, seems to think we are talking about null or else why Sabre? and also can't spell 'rage'

Post discounted Lol

I have deliberately developed an air of cynicism that I originally intended to make me appear somewhat louche and caddish but actually comes across as irritable hostility combined with the unspoken threat of sudden violence.....

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#250 - 2012-12-26 23:37:12 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :)


And we're still on holiday! Don't worry I haven't forgotten :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#251 - 2012-12-26 23:52:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Christmas is over, back to post tending. We are still here and still waiting. :)


And we're still on holiday! Don't worry I haven't forgotten :)


I don't understand this holiday thing since I'm still working. :(

I'm not making accusations of forgetting but I also am not going to let the topic sink back into the depths of the section.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

DSpite Culhach
#252 - 2012-12-27 02:18:52 UTC
Toterra wrote:

You do fail to understand what is happening here. The reason these PLEXes are so liked is because the provide just enough incentive to check out, but are not really worth farming. They were typically run in a PVP fit ship that ran the site only because there was no fight. I figure when I used to run these that about 1/3 times I would get a fight, the other 2/3 times I would just run the PLEX. Also it was not really viable to camp them with ships like a gatecamp. Just not enough activity to be worth doing that, and since the targets were frigates, they would just be able to escape anyways. This isn't like a stargate on a trade route where there are tons of ships going through looking for a shortcut. The only people who really were likely to show up were other PvP oriented folk in frigates. Lots of great fights.


It still seems obtuse to me that everyone is relying on this locations as informal "fight clubs". This was not what these locations were designed for, just because everyone has decided to use them this way is irrelevant.

We should be requesting CCP to think up a new mechanic that's better suited to this combat zone idea, and not complain when a change is made which impairs a meta-game. Everyone seems to want a "frigate combat arena" but seems too scared that when they say it out loud it makes it sound like they want a battleground like "other MMO's", and oh dear, we cant be like other MMO's, this is EVE !!!

Why not just add a new easy to scan down anomaly type - or just add a new wormhole type - that opens into pocket explorable space, penalizes high mass ships, and has similar explorable locations? You can add in high very rewards locations but with low probability of spawning to stop farming, and would allow fight between players normally hundred of jumps apart as well, ie far more players then just "the locals".

I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Olleybear
Armed And Angry
#253 - 2012-12-27 04:46:47 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:

I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".


A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame?

Others in this thread have done a wonderful job explaining how these sites in low-sec encourage pvp. They know what they are talking about and I would suggest you read / re-read what they have written with a more open mind.

That said, I am glad to see some devs have been made aware of how the plexes encourage pvp and are willing to take a second look at them.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.

Thor Kerrigan
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#254 - 2012-12-27 05:37:02 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:

I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".


A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame?

Others in this thread have done a wonderful job explaining how these sites in low-sec encourage pvp. They know what they are talking about and I would suggest you read / re-read what they have written with a more open mind.

That said, I am glad to see some devs have been made aware of how the plexes encourage pvp and are willing to take a second look at them.


Olleybear best bear.
DSpite Culhach
#255 - 2012-12-27 06:00:24 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:

I'm not saying that mine is the optimal solution, but I haven's seen anyone suggest anything better yet other then "don't nerf my metagame".


A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame?

Others in this thread have done a wonderful job explaining how these sites in low-sec encourage pvp. They know what they are talking about and I would suggest you read / re-read what they have written with a more open mind.

That said, I am glad to see some devs have been made aware of how the plexes encourage pvp and are willing to take a second look at them.


I have read the thread, so I do now get it.

"A location in lowsec that encourages PvP is a metagame?"

That's the problem right there, encourage? If players actually need places that "encourage" something to happen, you don't think its a problem? Why hasn't anyone just suggested to pick a few systems and "encourage" people to go there for frig fights, cause I'm pretty damn sure that the module drops from ships are worth more then running the low lev plexes, so afterwards, if they still don't go there, it means they didn't want those fights in the first place, and the only reason you're getting fights in the current mechanic is because you're just catching more stray greedy players who went there thinking they could run the complex unmolested. You set up a real "fight club" for 1v1 where the winner takes the spoils, and you'd get better turnouts, heck, you will get ME to come there.

I have ZERO reasons right now to randomly enter lowsec and risk multiple possible gatecamps for a low level complex. These fights you're thinking of will be between people like you that already live there, and that don't have an issue losing ships because they have their income streams worked out, and don't go there to run the plex in the first place - ie the fun is in the fight. If you want the rest of hisec to come out there for fights, ie the larger slice of the EVE population, there better be a better reason to be out there, cause getting there alive can be half the problem. Even if you were to make the complex rewards even better it would simply mean more people would be camping there waiting.

EVE mechanics are showing their age, and are based on old concepts that lose more and more meaning every time a new patch comes out. I was not being critical of what people are talking about in this thread, I'm trying to point out that it's ass-backwards logic because the fights are a side-effect, and not the intended idea.

You guys really want emergent gameplay? Start a proper fight club that attracts crowds. They started Bomber Bar and see what happened there, why not Frig Club? ... just don't tell Bomber Bar where it is, cause that might turn awkward.


I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Thor Kerrigan
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#256 - 2012-12-27 06:27:02 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
[...] because the fights are a side-effect, and not the intended idea. [...]


I think this is a good side-effect which shows the direction game design should be expanding upon. Those "camps" degenerated into king of the hills: competition for kills was just as fierce as competition for the loot. Survival of the fittest in it's purest form. Growing too big denied you both loot (massive split) and possible kills (nobody shows up when loosing your ship is guaranteed).

Real gatecamps work because targets are generally unaware of what awaits them on the other side. These plexes broadcasted to the entire system who/what/where was going on. It was your choice you went in and assumed the risks.

DSpite Culhach wrote:

I have ZERO reasons right now to randomly enter lowsec and risk multiple possible gatecamps for a low level complex. These fights you're thinking of will be between people like you that already live there, and that don't have an issue losing ships because they have their income streams worked out, and don't go there to run the plex in the first place - ie the fun is in the fight. If you want the rest of hisec to come out there for fights, ie the larger slice of the EVE population, there better be a better reason to be out there, cause getting there alive can be half the problem. Even if you were to make the complex rewards even better it would simply mean more people would be camping there waiting.


Nobody expects these plexes to be the sole reason for people to come from highsec. They were an additional bonus among other things, which got removed. The big picture is that removing them gives even less reasons for people to come to those areas. Adding incentives versus removing them, just as simple as that.
Olleybear
Armed And Angry
#257 - 2012-12-27 06:58:08 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
[...] because the fights are a side-effect, and not the intended idea. [...]

Nobody expects these plexes to be the sole reason for people to come from highsec. They were an additional bonus among other things, which got removed. The big picture is that removing them gives even less reasons for people to come to those areas. Adding incentives versus removing them, just as simple as that.


Yet again someone explains it well. And hey hey Thor. :-)

DSpite: I question the reasoning behind your posts. The only pvp record that I can find is a single loss on the E-Uni board and zero losses/kills on both battleclinic and eve-kill. This screams of alt character posting at best and ignorance of the subject matter at worst.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.

Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#258 - 2012-12-27 09:23:10 UTC
This is how it came to be...

There was a chance that the plex wielded a 60 million reward, give or take. So that encouraged people to spend iskies up to 60 million in ships. Its not sufficient to risk cruisers into, and you often found one, maybe two guys in there. So, you fought.

After a while, it became a matter of most of the time there's one guy in here. He even shot his friend or is cooperating with him, but they prefer solo, 'cause well, its boring to sit inside all day long and then ask for help.

The thrill dominated, and thats why we all loved it.

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#259 - 2012-12-27 10:25:28 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Toterra wrote:

You do fail to understand what is happening here. The reason these PLEXes are so liked is because the provide just enough incentive to check out, but are not really worth farming. They were typically run in a PVP fit ship that ran the site only because there was no fight. I figure when I used to run these that about 1/3 times I would get a fight, the other 2/3 times I would just run the PLEX. Also it was not really viable to camp them with ships like a gatecamp. Just not enough activity to be worth doing that, and since the targets were frigates, they would just be able to escape anyways. This isn't like a stargate on a trade route where there are tons of ships going through looking for a shortcut. The only people who really were likely to show up were other PvP oriented folk in frigates. Lots of great fights.


It still seems obtuse to me that everyone is relying on this locations as informal "fight clubs". This was not what these locations were designed for, just because everyone has decided to use them this way is irrelevant.

We should be requesting CCP to think up a new mechanic that's better suited to this combat zone idea, and not complain when a change is made which impairs a meta-game. Everyone seems to want a "frigate combat arena" but seems too scared that when they say it out loud it makes it sound like they want a battleground like "other MMO's", and oh dear, we cant be like other MMO's, this is EVE !!!

Why not just add a new easy to scan down anomaly type - or just add a new wormhole type - that opens into pocket explorable space, penalizes high mass ships, and has similar explorable locations? You can add in high very rewards locations but with low probability of spawning to stop farming, and would allow fight between players normally hundred of jumps apart as well, ie far more players then just "the locals".


Much of Eve functions as it was not intended to function.

The static complexes were on the overview. The overview that is right there, that we all use, that one can notice the static beacon on vs the scanner which like it or not is layered down far enough not to be an immediate thing for people passing through.

We do not want nor have we asked for an arena like other MMO's. What we have asked for, at the start, was an explanation on why the static complexes were removed. It was a single line noted in the patch notes. Considering the age of the static complexes the removal was sudden and unexpected.

Next, we discussed the static complexes as ISK generators for low sec. I do not think a single person in this thread, with a clue, especially the ones that post with the characters that they play that live in low sec and interact with these complexes, has asked or cared about their removal from high sec. Their removal from high sec makes a lot of sense.

The static complexes gave low sec a point of isk generation for newer characters. This is rather important because we often ask our new players for a level of self sufficiency. Activities that they can do on their own are rare. Even the sites that they can scan down are significantly harder then high sec. Considering that people PvE in their PvP ships a place like that static complexes were interesting.

We have continued, through this thread to explain that the nature of Eve had allowed the static complexes to grow beyond their intended usage. This is the natural state of play in Eve. It is obvious, by your own lack of understanding that what we have done with these environments were relatively unknown outside of low sec. Hence, we have striven to explain and bring to light one of the many activities we have in low sec where there is a vibrant culture of its own.

At no point have we asked for an artificial creation of an arena for fighting. We live and fight in the area because we want to live and fight in the area. What the Beacons did was break up the monotony of the systems and drop points of interest into them. This has also been explained. The ease of access for the beacons opened them up for many reasons from curiosity to boredom. The mechanics of the gates allowed for combat adaptations that created an environmental that was healthy for small ship fighting. Eventually, cultures grew up around these locations and they became small ship fighting hubs much as the trade hubs in the game have grown up despite the lack of intent for them to become trade hubs.

We had done something with the space we lived in. We had created an environment and we want to preserve it. With the sudden removal of the complexes, in this thread, we have sought to bring to light these endeavors and create an understanding for what we did and why we are asking for communication about what happened with the complexes, is there a change for a reversal based off of our information or can we at least open up talks to move forward with a future to keep this unique aspect of low sec alive and healthy.

What we have asked for so far is communication and discussion. We have offered up ideas from "please put them back" all the way to new possible mechanics that function around the same basic concepts of before which do not create an artificial environment.

The people posting in this thread come from all walks of playing style but they all have the same thing in common. They live or spend time in low sec, they fight, and they interacted with these complexes. What anyone skimming this thread will not realize is that most of us know each other and we know each other from the other end of our turrets. There are people in this thread that would never share the same spot in space voluntarily. Yet here, everyone has come together because the goal is large enough to organize the community to fight for it.

You do not know us DSpite, but we are still trying to explain ourselves, yet again.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#260 - 2012-12-27 15:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Laktos
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
I just see a lot of sabre pilots ranges.

I can still recall that how I was disappointed as a noob pilot, when entered three 2/10s and saw only broken structures or empty cans.

Good job CCP, more chances to newbies, let the 2/10 camping sabres/dramiels get to low sec


To liars who talking about PVP: there are lots of FW sites there and they are much better place for 1v1 or small gang pvps than low-sec 2/10s, enjoy it or try to make up another reason to pull the high-sec veteran farms back.


Petitioning CCP for a down-vote option.

DSpite Culhach wrote:
Everyone seems to want a "frigate combat arena" but seems too scared that when they say it out loud


Ah but it was never an arena. An arena implies some level of sophistication. I can assure you, the amount of times Black Rebel Rifter Club warped in 5+ cruisers/destroyers to try to take out a couple of RANSM frigates and lost half their fleet ... well, it was anything but sophisticated or civilised!

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

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