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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

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CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#221 - 2012-12-18 15:39:49 UTC
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.

EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to.


Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored.

Thread is here to stay.


Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
#222 - 2012-12-18 15:54:08 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.

EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to.


Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored.

Thread is here to stay.


Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.


As I said on Twitter, Thank you :)

[URL=http://novakaneinc.blogspot.co.uk]A Pirate's Perspective[/URL] [URL=http://community.eveonline.com/community/fansites.asp]Official EVE Online Fan Site[/URL]

CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#223 - 2012-12-18 16:13:14 UTC
Damn, Goliath beat me to saying everything he said.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#224 - 2012-12-18 16:28:57 UTC


I wasn't aware this was even happening, but I agree that some of the ideas in this thread are good ideas for low sec in general.

The rewards can't possibly outweigh the dangers in low sec locations, but can provide focal locations for activities.

This is one of the things I heard a year ago from a friend who played EVE with me before moving on -

From his perspective, there was just : Sun, Planets, Moon, Stargates.

Although I tried to explain to him that there were anomalies and signatures, I think the message comes in the form that beacons with interesting phenomena that are easy to find and interact with are valuable to adding a greater sense of environment for attracting locations of both conflict and profit for younger players who are looking for "exploration light" in the EVE universe without a lot of overhead and scanning and so on. They just want to pick a direction and burn. I know CCP has addressed this in a few ways in the past, but the idea is relevant to enforce and build upon.

As a vet, my days are spent enforcing my space and making sure things burn, but I know my younger pilots around me want to find more "charm" in EVE in our area - and that includes locations that people can aggregate to for fights/experiences/environments that are easy to appreciate.

Where I am.

fukier
#225 - 2012-12-18 16:37:19 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.

EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to.


Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored.

Thread is here to stay.


Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.


Glad to see you back from vacation... Hope it was a good one...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#226 - 2012-12-18 16:44:26 UTC
fukier wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hey guys, just dropping by to explain (as I did when Kane poked me on Twitter) that it's the start of the holiday season so a lot of developers are away or wrapping things up before they go away. Sorry that this isn't very satisfying (I can't really comment on the decision myself as I am not a designer and just got back from a long vacation myself so still getting up to speed) but I am sure someone will pick this up when they return in the New Year.

EDIT: By the way I appreciate that this thread has been going on since the 30th Nov. I don't have an answer for why it hasn't been picked up before, so let's just look forward to it getting addressed as soon as we are able to.


Thank you for saying something. We were getting close to going full Yarr from frustration over feeling fully ignored.

Thread is here to stay.


Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.


Glad to see you back from vacation... Hope it was a good one...


It was wonderful! Thanks so much Big smile

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Robinton Jax
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#227 - 2012-12-18 22:59:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Robinton Jax
Thank you for the response Goliath, off for the holidays myself.

...and thanks to Kane for poking him with a stick on twitter heh.
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#228 - 2012-12-19 00:34:15 UTC
I can now retire my torch and pitchfork and cancel my unscheduled trip to Reykjavik this winter!

Thanks CCP Goliath and CCP Eterne for giving us a response.

I look forwards to see some development on this in the new year. I am sure the community will be thrilled to help with progressive ideas that help uphold the intended fix from the December 4th update.

Laktos
Perkone
Caldari State
#229 - 2012-12-19 02:36:17 UTC
Thankyou for the response Goliath and Eterne.

I'll be checking this thread regularly waiting for the Dev in charge of this change to get back from holiday and come talk with us. Hopefully something constructive can come of it.

Latest PVP Video: Perseverance

Sard Caid does not endorse this message.

Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#230 - 2012-12-19 03:24:57 UTC
Laktos wrote:
Thankyou for the response Goliath and Eterne.

I'll be checking this thread regularly waiting for the Dev in charge of this change to get back from holiday and come talk with us. Hopefully something constructive can come of it.


Aye.

I know I will sit here and thread sit. The side effect of not having a life and not having a job that gives breaks for holidays means that my computer and I shall stay close together.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Shaera Taam
Khanid Prime Free Irregulars
#231 - 2012-12-19 06:32:38 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


Yup, I have it bookmarked, it'll get forwarded to relevant folk when they reappear.


wonderful news! thank you!

ST

Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess!

Miss Carry
Screaming Hayabusa
Neo-Bushido Movement
#232 - 2012-12-19 12:54:53 UTC
\o/
mybeter
Nadire Innovations and Education Inc.
#233 - 2012-12-19 13:00:37 UTC
I support this thread.
Christophe Boisvert
Red Brangus Unlimited
I Aim To Misbehave
#234 - 2012-12-19 23:33:12 UTC
Well, of course while CCP goes on vactation, so will we - the trouble is that means more time in the universe without the 2/10..

Oh well, we'll just have to play other things.

I wonder if Star Trek Online is running ?

Just kidding, the EVE game is so big there's pleanty of other things to do here.
Toterra
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#235 - 2012-12-20 16:23:37 UTC
What's particularly annoying about this is that it seems to be consistent with the old way of doing things for CCP. No mention in a Dev blog, no discussion with the CSM, just put it into the patch notes and launch, and then ignore the feedback.

This is how Incarna happened. This is how every other feature mess-up happened. We still have no evidence the Dev involved l has no idea that he has inadvertently messed up a great peace of emergent gameplay used by hundreds, if not thousands of players. Fixing this in 2014 is not an option. The change to the static complexes should be very easy to revert and then rethought. It is not as if the farmers of these plexes were causing 1/1000 the issue that tech moons or FW orbiting or incursion farming.
DSpite Culhach
#236 - 2012-12-20 17:01:25 UTC
I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.

* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate.
* Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there.
* They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.

Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.

What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?

I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.


I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
#237 - 2012-12-20 17:48:13 UTC
The gate to a 2/10 plex will only allow frigates and T1 destroyers. They make good 'frig arenas' because you can't fly anything bigger into one.

You're right that it's a bad place to go if you want to do PvE for ISK; it's a lowsec site with a beacon, so that should be obvious. That's not what people want them brought back for, though.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#238 - 2012-12-20 19:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sugar Kyle
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.

* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate.
* Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there.
* They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.

Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.

What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?

I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.




It is not like a gatecamp. A lot of it is a culture and an environment. People go there to get into fights with their frigates with other frigates. Some of those frigates want to run the complex some do not. The complex is not camped 24/7 by a group of people with the intent to go and alpha some random person that comes in.

These systems tend to have corps that live in them and keep them 'clean'. The corps themselves tend to be frigate and small ship focused and that is the environment that they tend like a framer to his crops.

Because these groups and places are frigate focused, they are not a good place for BC and BS to be. The small ships easily slip under their guns and kill them. If someone decided to go, burn out, and attempt to snipe, the local inhabitants would clean them out quickly and do.

These are places where you can ask for a 1v1 in local and that 1v1 is honored. I understand if you do not live in low sec and live in these environment that it seems to be no different from any other places where people sit and wait for the innocent. I can but tell you that it is. These are the places where corporations send their young pilots to cut their teeth on their own, where the agressive can find a constant influx of PvP and where small ship fighting (which is hard in low sec due to gate/station guns) can and does thrive.

The people who inhabit low sec do so for many reasons. Most of them simply enjoy destroying their spaceships and living in an environment that caters to that lifestyle. They are flashy red because things like sec status are not going to make them miss a fight. That, however, does not mean that everyone who enjoys low sec and enjoys fighting in particular areas of low sec is a gate camper who believes in over whelming numbers to achieve a gank.

Many of these groups are new player friendly. They do not harp over killboard status and get angry because people lose ships to learn. In the end, they create incredible pilots with amazing skills in their chosen ship types. Some leave to move to corps with different playing styles and some stay because they develop a passionate love for that type of fighting. Some stay and still do other things because we're a flexible group but we are a dysfunctional family that shoots each other one moment and fleets together the next.

Healthy low sec environments are like this. Places like this are Oasis in the desert, drawing people to work together in new and different ways. This thread is full of people who live in the same area and shoot each other every time they can, yet they all are saying the same thing. Let us keep our places where we have created a living and thriving culture. There are pirates and antipirates and carebears and null sec folk and those that visit and those that have come and left in this thread all saying the same thing.

So, please do not judge us based off of a handful of high sec to low sec gate sitting corporations. There is a lot more down here then many people will understand. We have been and will continue, however, attempt to explain it.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#239 - 2012-12-21 00:39:15 UTC
Well, it's hard to beat Sugar Kyle with better answer :)

One thing from me which already was explained many times in this and other places regarding 2/10 plexes: it is not about fights and people going inside plex, it is all about what happens at accel gate. You jump into a system, select plex on your overview and during warp in you check d-scan. No fu*king around with asking 1v1 on local and such bullcrap. You sit at plex it means you wanna fight - plain and simple.

I had run Heild plex once during my whole living in there, just because I never run those sites before and I was curious wtf it is all about. I got some bluetagged afterburner, threw it into my hangar and said "meh, too much effort".

Fights I had at that accel gate? Plenty of deaths, derps, runaways, warpins and warpouts. Sometimes helped mah fellow rebel with some kiter, sometimes wanted to get rid of some asshats camping it and died ECMed by st00pid griffins :)

Rebels and visitors alike - we all knew what to do at plex. It is all about explosions and fun.

Or...

It was....

Invalid signature format

Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#240 - 2012-12-21 08:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelus Ryan
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I'm fairly new at this, so bear with me, as I'm not grasping this at all.

* The 1-2/10 plexes are in low sec say, and start with an acc gate.
* Players find out they are good isk. are easy to do, and they generally put togheter a pve frig and go there.
* They warp there and find multiple destroyers/BC/BS and get alpha'd, ie a gatecamp.



Rarely happens. Sometimes people do camp the entrances, but most often the areas tend to be clear of heavier gangs. That's what makes those things small ship PvP heaven.

DSpite Culhach wrote:


Is the above incorrect? Cause it does not really give me a great incentive to do 2/10 ded's for isk, when I know that people that live near the ded's do in fact run them themselves and have ships that probably contain the nice shiny modules/ships that drop in those plexes to start with.



You don't go into them in a PvE ship to make ISK. You go there in a PvP ship to make some ISK on the side while your main goal is to get fights (It is, however, a great way to pile up the ISK if you are a competent pilot and are capable of holding a plex under lock down and defeating people who come to evict you). Of course, that doesn't stop people from going in there with PvE ships and getting blown to heck (just like people keep taking Exhumers into lowsec and getting podded back to wherever it is they came in from), or fitting cloaks and warp core stabs and trying to avoid getting killed while farming the benefits. But those that do the latter can be rooted out by patient hunters, or can be just denied their drops if they are not willing to stick and fight for them.

DSpite Culhach wrote:


What stops people from camping 100km off the ded acc gate cloaked to just snipe ships that land on grid?



The fact that a cloaky sniper typically has a pretty long time after decloaking before it can actually lock anything, locking frigates takes a while, and they align fast. I guess you could do it with a Panther loaded up with sebos, but how many people are going to risk a 1bil ship to (maybe) kill a few frig or dessy hulls?

Sometimes people do camp the entrances with sniper Tornados (which then die hilarious deaths to the locals getting a stealth bomber tackler on top of said nado and blasting it to bits in two volleys). At other times, people will sit a propless cruiser with a gazillion webs at the gate (and then get tackled by long range tacklers and held down till they die). It is an interesting environment where you can get killed in a myriad of ways, which is exactly the way we like it. It also offers the solo pilot many tactical advantages due the deadspace nature of the grid.

People do sometimes use stuff like Rapiers to tackle frigs landing on grid, but people who start doing that might get a couple of kills before their killboard makes them damn obvious, and they either get baited and killed, or they just don't get any fights, get bored, and leave.

DSpite Culhach wrote:


I must be missing something here, but it just seems to me like another choke point to just kill/alpha people at, rather then the "frig arena" you guys are making it out to be. I was told the same thing was happening at FW entry points where large fleets where killing anything landing on them.



People rarely sit multiple BCs or anything larger at the plex entrance to kill and alpha people. There's little money or glory to be gained from blobbing a frig, a dessy, or an AF at a plex entrance gate. It is also boring, and due to d-scan, these camps are easily avoidable: You see a bunch of heavy ships at a plex, just don't warp in. Problem solved. Additionally, FW is a more group-oriented affair which can easily escalate into large battes. The people coming to lowsec static plexes are typically alone or with very few friends, which leads to the frig arena reality of those places.