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Dev blog: Corp Hangars on ships and You

First post First post
Author
FnStrabo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2012-12-02 15:40:37 UTC
All of this is just great and dandy. When are you actually going to address the elephant in the room for corporation management? ROLES.

How about fixing the broken can mechanics also. Lovely that you have to give a role to remove anything from a can in a corporate hanger, but the same role actually allows for the WHOLE can to be removed.

That would be a nice fix.

Ohhh the humanity......
FnStrabo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#262 - 2012-12-02 15:44:39 UTC
By the way.. I'm only posting in forums cause I'm trapped in a perpetual war due to broken war mechanics. A hotfix on that would have been nice instead of waiting for the next patch.

Thank you again, for your consideration.
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#263 - 2012-12-02 15:57:57 UTC
FnStrabo wrote:
All of this is just great and dandy. When are you actually going to address the elephant in the room for corporation management? ROLES.

How about fixing the broken can mechanics also. Lovely that you have to give a role to remove anything from a can in a corporate hanger, but the same role actually allows for the WHOLE can to be removed.

That would be a nice fix.

Ohhh the humanity......


It is 100% clear that the corp roles need a complete overhaul, but this will be a major project (much larger than the changes in this DevBlog).
Regarding can mechanics: I am pretty sure, that you are able to access correctly configured containers, if you don't have the role to remove containers. Sure - it is a bit too complicated, but it should work (this did not change with Retribution).

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing

Epiphany Achura
Federation Clone Services LTD.
#264 - 2012-12-02 16:11:09 UTC
Blockade Runners unscannable=annoyance and unnecessary tedium Roll

sedex
Doomheim
#265 - 2012-12-02 16:58:27 UTC  |  Edited by: sedex
Lots of good things (especially the new containers), except for the blockade runner change, imho.

It doesn't add anything needed (except in -rare- case, I guess ?), and it will be annoying.

Most of my industrial chars can fly a prowler.
They mostly stayed in those, the few times they needed to leave their station.
They use it like a shuttle in high-sec, on autopilot when moving from places to places.
BR are slower than a shuttle, but with the advantage of carrying a probe launcher and probes if the character is needed in a wormhole, and being able to move a few thousands m^3 of valuables immediately and safely, in high or low-sec if and when needed (not on autopilot then, of course).

It was very convenient, having the right ship for travel, WH duty, pos duty and unplanned purchases always available.
I never lost one.
Empty ones were not an interesting target,
full ones were not afk-piloted, and usually scouted.

Now, this is over.
Any afk/autopilot prowler will be a target. Probably empty, of course, but you never know, and killing it is (relatively) cheap.

So, I guess it is back to juggling jump clones and flying a shuttle/vigil/... between regions, leaving a few prowlers left and right, next to the fenrirs.
A bit more planning needed, lots of time lost fetching the ships when needed and putting it back afterwards, nothing gained.

So, in my opinion, if you did this thinking it would help BR pilots, could you think again about it?
I may be wrong, of course, and perhaps many BR pilots will like this change or find it useful.
But so far, I haven't seen evidence of this on the forum.

Of course, it the immunity had been extended to custom, that would be another story ;)

Sedex
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#266 - 2012-12-02 17:54:01 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:


It is 100% clear that the corp roles need a complete overhaul, but this will be a major project (much larger than the changes in this DevBlog).
Regarding can mechanics: I am pretty sure, that you are able to access correctly configured containers, if you don't have the role to remove containers. Sure - it is a bit too complicated, but it should work (this did not change with Retribution).


So, by the way you've done recent 'overhauls' to things that might have needed them....sounds like your game plan should be to just remove all corp roles, then while everyone on TQ suffers, slowly over the course of 3-6 months work on building a replacement.

Again, why do you have to just up and delete the versatility, organization, and controlled security the divisions in capitol corp hangers had, while not producing something that maintains the functionality. Cargo cans are not the answer, nor is 'just use filters'. Why can't you work to create a GOOD replacement while still using the current division systems...you have for this long already, whats another 6 months?

http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing    < Unified Inventory is NOT ready...

FnStrabo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2012-12-02 18:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: FnStrabo
CCP Habakuk wrote:
FnStrabo wrote:
All of this is just great and dandy. When are you actually going to address the elephant in the room for corporation management? ROLES.

How about fixing the broken can mechanics also. Lovely that you have to give a role to remove anything from a can in a corporate hanger, but the same role actually allows for the WHOLE can to be removed.

That would be a nice fix.

Ohhh the humanity......


It is 100% clear that the corp roles need a complete overhaul, but this will be a major project (much larger than the changes in this DevBlog).
Regarding can mechanics: I am pretty sure, that you are able to access correctly configured containers, if you don't have the role to remove containers. Sure - it is a bit too complicated, but it should work (this did not change with Retribution).



No, actually it cannot be done. You can give them access to view what is in the container, but they would not be able to take anything out of the container. Only by giving the role "take" can you allow them to pull from the container. Unfortunately this same role allows them to TAKE the CONTAINER.

So although you may have passwords on the container, and to unlock item, along with audit logs... it's all for bunk since they can just take the stupid container.

Audit logs on the corporate hanger divisions would at least allow us to get Retribution.
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc
#268 - 2012-12-02 18:32:08 UTC
sedex wrote:

Of course, it the immunity had been extended to custom, that would be another story ;)



^ this.

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2012-12-02 18:50:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
My opinion is that it was horrible decision to push this feature to retribution as it clearly has not been properly crowd sourced and planned. the huge downsides were pretty much ignored and the smelly stuff will land on cap pilots and probably later to POS managers also.

So... as I wrote to test server thread:

Have you considered the fact that the pilot might not want to micro manage items in FH. While there was divisions people with roles could take stuff by themselves if roles were set.

To get to this same point now you have to drop all stuff to FH floor (not to containers) and tolerate the mess. Not that this wouldn't be bad enough by itself you can't limit which corp members have access either. It's to all or none. Same goes with ship hangar.

Seriously you're downgrading the system from being "ok" to level of "total junk".

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Fergus Runkle
Truth and Reconciliation Council
#270 - 2012-12-02 18:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Fergus Runkle
FnStrabo wrote:
CCP Habakuk wrote:
FnStrabo wrote:
All of this is just great and dandy. When are you actually going to address the elephant in the room for corporation management? ROLES.

How about fixing the broken can mechanics also. Lovely that you have to give a role to remove anything from a can in a corporate hanger, but the same role actually allows for the WHOLE can to be removed.

That would be a nice fix.

Ohhh the humanity......


It is 100% clear that the corp roles need a complete overhaul, but this will be a major project (much larger than the changes in this DevBlog).
Regarding can mechanics: I am pretty sure, that you are able to access correctly configured containers, if you don't have the role to remove containers. Sure - it is a bit too complicated, but it should work (this did not change with Retribution).



No, actually it cannot be done. You can give them access to view what is in the container, but they would not be able to take anything out of the container. Only by giving the role "take" can you allow them to pull from the container. Unfortunately this same role allows them to TAKE the CONTAINER.

So although you may have passwords on the container, and to unlock item, along with audit logs... it's all for bunk since they can just take the stupid container.

Audit logs on the corporate hanger divisions would at least allow us to get Retribution.



This man is correct, the only role that allows people to take from cans also allows them to take the entire can.

NOTE THIS WAS NOT ALWAYS SO.

A number of years ago it used to work correctly (ie you could set a role to take from the can but not take the whole can). Then it was changed in the Revalations II expansion.

See these

One

Two

three
Aineko Macx
#271 - 2012-12-02 19:02:40 UTC
I approve of roaming gangs catching mining support freighters in belts Twisted
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#272 - 2012-12-02 20:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Habakuk
Fergus Runkle wrote:
FnStrabo wrote:

No, actually it cannot be done. You can give them access to view what is in the container, but they would not be able to take anything out of the container. Only by giving the role "take" can you allow them to pull from the container. Unfortunately this same role allows them to TAKE the CONTAINER.

So although you may have passwords on the container, and to unlock item, along with audit logs... it's all for bunk since they can just take the stupid container.

Audit logs on the corporate hanger divisions would at least allow us to get Retribution.



This man is correct, the only role that allows people to take from cans also allows them to take the entire can.

NOTE THIS WAS NOT ALWAYS SO.

A number of years ago it used to work correctly (ie you could set a role to take from the can but not take the whole can). Then it was changed in the Revalations II expansion.

See these

One

Two

three


So, regarding history: yes, this was broken for quite some time, but as far as I can tell it is working since the Trinity expansion (5 years ago).

Regarding details: I just jumped onto test servers (Buckingham and Multiplicity, which is running the same version as TQ) to make sure, that I am not imagining things:

What is still not working (and which is by design as far as I can tell): It is NOT possible to take items out of containers, if you are not allowed to take items from the hangar floor.

What is possible:
  • If you have the "Hangar Query" and "Hangar Take" roles, you can take (unlocked) items out of containers, if the container is not password locked.
  • Unlocking items also needs the "Config Equipment" role in addition to the password (but there is a small bug in the TQ version and you are not told, that you need the "config equipment" role).
  • For taking a container you need the roles "Hangar Query", "Hangar Take" and "Container Take".

Have I missed any details? Have I misread your post and you are complaining about something different?

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing

Mag's
Azn Empire
#273 - 2012-12-02 21:09:46 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:


So, regarding history: yes, this was broken for quite some time, but as far as I can tell it is working since the Trinity expansion (5 years ago).

Regarding details: I just jumped onto test servers (Buckingham and Multiplicity, which is running the same version as TQ) to make sure, that I am not imagining things:

What is still not working (and which is by design as far as I can tell): It is NOT possible to take items out of containers, if you are not allowed to take items from the hangar floor.

What is possible:
  • If you have the "Hangar Query" and "Hangar Take" roles, you can take (unlocked) items out of containers, if the container is not password locked.
  • Unlocking items also needs the "Config Equipment" role in addition to the password (but there is a small bug in the TQ version and you are not told, that you need the "config equipment" role).
  • For taking a container you need the roles "Hangar Query", "Hangar Take" and "Container Take".

Have I missed any details? Have I misread your post and you are complaining about something different?
It's a good job your new hanger changes and new cargo containers made thing less complicated. After all, you need to get the complexity of EVE under control.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

h4kun4
Senkawa Tactical Division
Crimson Citadel
#274 - 2012-12-02 22:44:09 UTC
Like:
All the new stuff you made

Dislike:
Making only blckade runners unscannable and letting deep space be scannable

Why should a ship which is instantly cloaked after jump and is as fast in warp as a frig be unscannable?

I see sth coming...Cloaky Hauler gank Roulette.....and the price wil drop as a waterfall...

Or am i understanding sth wrong like...you may also call the deep space as blockade runners?
Vereesa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2012-12-02 23:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vereesa
Well, that's a pretty huge shakeup of how cargo works. Aaaand almost all of them directly benefit suicide gankers. Welp, gotta hope a pair of logistics ships can put enough of a buffer up to stop your average ganking attempt.
Covert ops transports change makes sense, if only to balance out the making everything visible everywhere else. I agree with other people in this thread that it's just going to make them public enemy number one since they're made of glass and they're the only thin pinyata you might find something really shiny in. So goodbye hauler shuttle days.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#276 - 2012-12-02 23:36:28 UTC
Vereesa wrote:
Well, that's a pretty huge shakeup of how cargo works. Aaaand almost all of them directly benefit suicide gankers. Welp, gotta hope a pair of logistics ships can put enough of a buffer up to stop your average ganking attempt.
Covert ops transports change makes sense, if only to balance out the making everything visible everywhere else. I agree with other people in this thread that it's just going to make them public enemy number one since they're made of glass and they're the only thin pinyata you might find something really shiny in. So goodbye hauler shuttle days.

It makes NO sense. BRs aren't scanned anyway. They insta cloak after jumping and warp and jump anonymously. All the unscannable hold is gonna do is vastly increase the amount of BRs that are lost while afk flying empty to a hub or home. They're made of glass anyway. A few thrashers could take one down. Talk about a loot pinata!

DSTs (Impel, Occator, Bustard, Mastadon) makes MUCH, MUCH more sense to give this feature to. It provides a beefy enough tank to give it random-suicide-gankers a pause, and if its gonna be suicide ganked, it'll take a dedicated group (unlike a few thrashers messing around).

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Maul555
Xen Investments
#277 - 2012-12-03 00:05:04 UTC
Panhead4411 wrote:
CCP Habakuk wrote:


It is 100% clear that the corp roles need a complete overhaul, but this will be a major project (much larger than the changes in this DevBlog).
Regarding can mechanics: I am pretty sure, that you are able to access correctly configured containers, if you don't have the role to remove containers. Sure - it is a bit too complicated, but it should work (this did not change with Retribution).


So, by the way you've done recent 'overhauls' to things that might have needed them....sounds like your game plan should be to just remove all corp roles, then while everyone on TQ suffers, slowly over the course of 3-6 months work on building a replacement.

Again, why do you have to just up and delete the versatility, organization, and controlled security the divisions in capitol corp hangers had, while not producing something that maintains the functionality. Cargo cans are not the answer, nor is 'just use filters'. Why can't you work to create a GOOD replacement while still using the current division systems...you have for this long already, whats another 6 months?



What would be really neatorific would be the ability to customize the number of divisions and their labels, and have that setting stay with just that ship, even after it passes hands.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#278 - 2012-12-03 00:49:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
CCP Habakuk wrote:
So, regarding history: yes, this was broken for quite some time, but as far as I can tell it is working since the Trinity expansion (5 years ago).

Regarding details: I just jumped onto test servers (Buckingham and Multiplicity, which is running the same version as TQ) to make sure, that I am not imagining things:

What is still not working (and which is by design as far as I can tell): It is NOT possible to take items out of containers, if you are not allowed to take items from the hangar floor.

What is possible:
  • If you have the "Hangar Query" and "Hangar Take" roles, you can take (unlocked) items out of containers, if the container is not password locked.
  • Unlocking items also needs the "Config Equipment" role in addition to the password (but there is a small bug in the TQ version and you are not told, that you need the "config equipment" role).
  • For taking a container you need the roles "Hangar Query", "Hangar Take" and "Container Take".

Have I missed any details? Have I misread your post and you are complaining about something different?


On that note, why is the Accountant role required to contract cans out of deliveries hangars, but not to take them if you're in the same station? This requirement is completely undocumented and it really doesn't make any sense that "contract a can from a deliveries hangar" is on the same level as "turn off sovereignty bill autopay."

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#279 - 2012-12-03 01:06:55 UTC
On the topic of corp roles: Why can't Station Managers set i-hub timers? They can set station timers, dump upgrades in i-hubs, even offline/unanchor the things if they have config starbase equipment as well, but setting the timer? Director only. Makes no sense.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#280 - 2012-12-03 02:03:25 UTC
Andski wrote:

On that note, why is the Accountant role required to contract cans out of deliveries hangars, but not to take them if you're in the same station? This requirement is completely undocumented and it really doesn't make any sense that "contract a can from a deliveries hangar" is on the same level as "turn off sovereignty bill autopay."



I figure it's a side effect of the ball of mud problem they have with a lot of the bigger bits of code (Like crimewatch was)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter