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Great Article about Being Female and Gaming

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-11-30 06:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Quote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Threads like this raise awareness of a problem. It is not the people who try to raise awareness of the problem that perpetuate the problem, it is the people who create the problem that needs to be discussed. The old adage of "don't feed the troll" only applies when the troll is actually harmless - people who create an environment of social exclusivity, even if it's "just the internet", may be getting a rise out of being discussed, but that is not why they are discussed, or why threads like this exist. IMHO, they are sick individuals, more often than not, that need help. Especially if this is what they do for their personal entertainment.


That's the old chicken or the egg argument. Would trolls exist if there was nothing to troll? You can look at it either way but I would argue that the internet is even more devoid of acceptable social norms than RL, so any RL issue would be amplified on the internet significantly and cause trolling. Why you would want to cause that effect is beyond me. "Raising awareness"? Do it where it actually counts, which is what makes this thread even more trivial. At best this topic will spawn some trolls and then get lost in the archives of EvE Online Forums. What was the point to begin with? Spawning trolls...


Unfortunately, the old "chicken and egg argument" analogy is a fallacy - it was, in fact, the egg that came first, and you can find a myriad of scientific evidence to prove it. Here, though, you are overcomplicating a very simple situation - bottom line, people who behave badly are responsible for their own bad behaviour, and there are no excuses. Not even the internet. And this thread, this issue, DOES count here. You might be happy to pass it off as irrelevant, but if you find it so, then why are you even here? You have offered nothing constructive to this discussion at all except more excuses for excusing bad behaviour on the internet.

Quote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

This is the problem - you think the OP is enabling, and therefore causing, people to troll him. You're wrong - the people trolling him are making a conscious choice to do so. They are the problem, not the OP. And all you are doing is perpetuating this myth that the internet suddenly makes what would normally be considered wrong something otherwise. This is absolutely not the case.


I don't think the OP is enabling, I know that he is. Go ahead and count the troll responses in this thread. To play with words a bit: OP has enabled these people to make the choice to troll him. In the absence of this topic, the trolls would not have a stage or a voice. That is a simple fact.


Go and look up the Dunning-Kruger effect - you don't know what you think you know.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-11-30 06:20:09 UTC
Quote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.


I agree that it is a problem. I also think that it's a problem in many industries in RL, in 3rd world countries, in the Middle East... In my personal opinion, I think it's absolutely moronic to argue about RL issues on an internet gaming forum and expect anything but trolling.


Indeed, but I'm sure it wouldn't matter what the topic was, someone would troll it anyway. Your solution to deny them a stage to perform on is ridiculous, because they will just end up making their own.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jayson Kassis
Carbon Industries
#123 - 2012-11-30 06:25:29 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.


Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.


And yet the problem seems to lie within you. Perhaps your own conflict with how you adjust to society and relate with women. You need to look outside for your answers instead of thinking everyone thinks and feels just the way you do.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.


There is something very personal about this topic that is clearly forcing you to ignore logic and argue every valid point that comes your way. You would be amazed at how many men would enjoy female company while playing their favorite games. You should really put your energy into something that matters. Also you act like women don't troll or act vicious on the internet. Like men are the culprits for everything bad in life.

If women wanted to play video games the same way men do, they would (and few do). Society has little impact on this. Most men are drawn to competition and that is why we love our video games.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#124 - 2012-11-30 06:30:58 UTC
IMHO I really don't care what gender you are
I care what kind of a person you are, and in the sense of games, how good of a player you are.

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-11-30 06:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Jayson Kassis wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.


Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.


And yet the problem seems to lie within you. Perhaps your own conflict with how you adjust to society and relate with women. You need to look outside for your answers instead of thinking everyone thinks and feels just the way you do.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.


There is something very personal about this topic that is clearly forcing you to ignore logic and argue every valid point that comes your way. You would be amazed at how many men would enjoy female company while playing their favorite games. You should really put your energy into something that matters. Also you act like women don't troll or act vicious on the internet. Like men are the culprits for everything bad in life.

If women wanted to play video games the same way men do, they would (and few do). Society has little impact on this. Most men are drawn to competition and that is why we love our video games.


I underlined everything you got wrong for you. First of all, this - "There is something very personal about this topic that is clearly forcing you to ignore logic and argue every valid point that comes your way"

Actually, I have raised a very valid argument. If you have failed to understand it, then you should go try again. Re-read, click the links (they are relevant, I promise), and try to exercise your mind a little. There is nothing personal here except your personal snipes at me, such as "You should really put your energy into something that matters." This does matter. Dismissing it as something that doesn't matter just indicates your disinterest in the topic, and yet here you are, commenting on it.

"Also you act like women don't troll or act vicious on the internet. Like men are the culprits for everything bad in life". You say this, but you don't offer the part of my argument where I made this assertion. You're going to have to be more specific about where in my argument I said or acted anything like this, and come back with a relevant rebuttal other than another strawman.

"If women wanted to play video games the same way men do" < this is one of the most ignorant claims I've ever seen made. You don't know the gamers I know, obviously, and perhaps don't have the same degree of social experience as many people to make such an assumption.

I think that just about covers it. Oh, but no, I'm not amazed at all, I enjoy the company of many gamers, male and female alike. Their gender, however, is entirely irrelevant.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#126 - 2012-11-30 06:32:18 UTC
Jayson Kassis wrote:
[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor][quote=Jayson Kassis]
If women wanted to play video games the same way men do, they would (and few do). Society has little impact on this. Most men are drawn to competition and that is why we love our video games.


What you've mentioned here is all a product of a society that has conditioned you to think this way. The same way society tells you that money is important and that status actually means something.
Jayson Kassis
Carbon Industries
#127 - 2012-11-30 07:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayson Kassis
Meryl SinGarda wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor][quote=Jayson Kassis]
If women wanted to play video games the same way men do, they would (and few do). Society has little impact on this. Most men are drawn to competition and that is why we love our video games.


What you've mentioned here is all a product of a society that has conditioned you to think this way. The same way society tells you that money is important and that status actually means something.


Perhaps we should just blame society for everything that we are and not even consider the fact that certain attributes get imprinted into our brains at child birth. The need for competition is one of the basic primitive needs that most men possess. One of the many ways we were designed to keep our population in check. Video games are a good outlet for the more introverted types.
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#128 - 2012-11-30 07:10:11 UTC
Jayson Kassis wrote:
Meryl SinGarda wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
[quote=Krixtal Icefluxor][quote=Jayson Kassis]
If women wanted to play video games the same way men do, they would (and few do). Society has little impact on this. Most men are drawn to competition and that is why we love our video games.


What you've mentioned here is all a product of a society that has conditioned you to think this way. The same way society tells you that money is important and that status actually means something.


Perhaps we should just blame society for everything that we are and not even consider the fact that certain attributes get imprinted into our brains at child birth. The need for competition is one of the basic primitive needs that most men possess. One of the many ways we were designed to keep our population in check. Video games are the perfect outlet.


You could say basically the same thing about parents who are stuck in the past, brainwashing their children into thinking backward, more than forward. But, even though we're animals, doesn't mean we need to act like them.

This is all about fundamental rights that shouldn't be exclusive to a certain group of people, right?
Jayson Kassis
Carbon Industries
#129 - 2012-11-30 07:38:00 UTC
Meryl SinGarda wrote:
You could say basically the same thing about parents who are stuck in the past, brainwashing their children into thinking backward, more than forward. But, even though we're animals, doesn't mean we need to act like them.

This is all about fundamental rights that shouldn't be exclusive to a certain group of people, right?


Being locked in the past and raising your children poorly is a more complicated problem that comes with living life. Has nothing to do with our basic fundamental needs as men and women.

For the better part of the world, nothing is exclusive to a certain group of people. We can be anything we want to be within reason. If you need social acceptance in what you do than you are bound to be let down.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#130 - 2012-11-30 07:44:52 UTC
Allright Remiel.

There is little point in attempting to further reason with you as there is clearly no way that we will agree on this matter. Good luck in your ongoing crusade to champion equal rights, fairness and good behaviour on the internet.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-11-30 07:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Katie Frost
Meryl SinGarda wrote:
Katie Frost wrote:

...it's absolutely moronic to argue about RL issues on an internet gaming forum and expect anything but trolling.


That's strange....


Oh I stopped reading right there because your previous one-liner, attention seeking, trolling replies clearly deserve a measured response.
DrunkenNinja
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#132 - 2012-11-30 11:24:22 UTC

Nice little piece of misinformation there—females are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2012-11-30 11:26:55 UTC
DrunkenNinja wrote:

Nice little piece of misinformation there—females are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?


Nope. However, harassing women for trying to powerlift, or harassing men for trying to sing or care for children most definitely WOULD be sexism, and that's what the thread is all about. Too often these conversations quickly get derailed into "WELL DERP LET ME TELL YOU HOW MEN AND WOMEN ARE ~DIFFERENT~" and almost instantly ignore the actual harassment that started the discussion in the first place.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2012-11-30 11:35:47 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
DrunkenNinja wrote:

Nice little piece of misinformation there—females are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?


Nope. However, harassing women for trying to powerlift, or harassing men for trying to sing or care for children most definitely WOULD be sexism, and that's what the thread is all about. Too often these conversations quickly get derailed into "WELL DERP LET ME TELL YOU HOW MEN AND WOMEN ARE ~DIFFERENT~" and almost instantly ignore the actual harassment that started the discussion in the first place.


A voice of reason and intelligence on GD???

Well I never.

But OT, this a thousand times. The distinction between what can be identified as actual gender differences and culturally imposed gender differences needs to be walked VERY carefully, and nowhere in a discussion about equality is there a place to use the existing physiological differences between men and women as a justification to excuse the artificially constructed expectations placed on men and women by "tradition" and "society".

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2012-11-30 11:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
I'm going to also requote this as it's a sign of just how ******* noxious people can be about this topic.

Mars Theran wrote:
I'll just go back to the OP and deal with that. Nobody should be surprised that prepubescent males that sit at home playing video games act this way. The fact that Devs and, (wtf is a designer anyway?), ..designers act that way is hard to believe. Some.. sure, but a vast majority of them?

I don't get it. Either they're exaggerating or these people are tools; which is it?.


Mars Theran finds it "hard to believe" that a not-insignificant* amount of women deal with these issues and doesn't "get" why this is happening, and his only two alternatives are (a) the women are lying and (b) it's their fault.

This is where the poison really seeps in. He absolutely refuses to consider that the #1reasonwhy hashtag tweets are representing a real, actual cultural problem, and rushes in to blame the victims. This more than anything is the type of **** that needs to end, and end yesterday.

* the amount of women dealing with these issues is a lovely attempt at a derail on his part. Still ignores that any number of women dealing with harassment at all is a Bad Thing.

edit: oh hey, for something that hits a little closer to home, here's a #1reasonwhy tweet from our very own CCP Punkturis:

https://twitter.com/CCP_Punkturis/status/273383027151892480

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-11-30 12:16:59 UTC
DrunkenNinja wrote:

Nice little piece of misinformation there—females are less physically powerful in many more ways than "Power lifting"
Is it "sexist" to say that? Is it "sexist" to say that men can't generally sing 2 Cs above middle C, or that men can't naturally carry babies?


I'm not sure if you've been around to remember these guys, but I remember this song in particular every time I log onto EVE. They were original Australian pop-talent as opposed to being "manufactured" like groups such as One Direction... and just about anyone else who is popular today.

As a guy, I am not ashamed to admit, I enjoyed Savage Garden. Still do from time to time.

Anyway, you obviously don't know as much about the vocal abilities of men as you thought you did, but it's completely irrelevant anyway, because as has been indicated by Snow Axe, you missed the point completely.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#137 - 2012-11-30 12:21:53 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.


Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.


Err... the average male brain and the average female brain are physically different, thus, the average male and average female don't think alike. If you don't recognize and accept that differences exist, you'll just make the problem worse.

It's like mixing cars and bicycles on the road. Yes, the bicycles have the "right" to use the same roads, however, mixing two tons of steel going 60+ MPH with a few hundred pounds of flesh and aluminum going 10 MPH isn't a wise idea. The speed differential causes congestion and when something goes wrong, the bicyclist is guaranteed to lose. You need to tailor the infrastructure to handle different needs.


The real solution is environment. Women (on average) tend to work and communicate differently then men. Unless you can find a mixed group of mature professionals that can adhere to a commonly accepted workplace standard, then an all female organization (aka dev team) might be the way to go to create more women oriented games. (Which given that females are 50% of the population and that everyone is tech enabled nowadays, it is a huge, untapped market.)

The down side is that the funding (and training and publishing) is controlled by Ye Olde Male Power Structures...



I believe absolutely none of this. Not even the bicycle part. I saw a completely different outcome than what you describe on the streets of San Francisco for 17 years, and you are flat wrong. I'm not even going to start on the rest of it.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#138 - 2012-11-30 12:24:49 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Saying "it's just the internet" enables the abusers and harassers. That phrase is their ally, their justification. It lets them off the hook for behaviour that could be considered criminal if done in person. It shifts the blame to the victim of the abuse by suggesting they just need to, say, "grow a thicker skin" because it's somehow not real because pixels and wifi and anonymous commenting ability. No. That whole line of thinking needs to stop. Now. And anyone perpetuating it needs to take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the way they treat others, on the internet or otherwise, or they are no better than garbage.

[concluded]



Great posting.

Thank goodness our ancestors did not take this attitude when the mail system was 'invented' by thinking, "well, they are 500 miles away, I can write whatever bs I want because it's just ink on paper and not real."

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#139 - 2012-11-30 12:26:12 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't know about discrimination, it's never affected me and I've been playing online games since I was 8. Maybe I just don't feel it's a big deal or maybe I just don't put myself in a position where I'm open to it. Maybe I just take it for granted because I often make people really mad.



It's affecting me, but not because I'm subject to it at the moment. This thread is horrifying. ShockedUgh

I just can't begin to define what's wrong with it, in so many areas.

I'll just go back to the OP and deal with that. Nobody should be surprised that prepubescent males that sit at home playing video games act this way. The fact that Devs and, (wtf is a designer anyway?), ..designers act that way is hard to believe. Some.. sure, but a vast majority of them?

I don't get it. Either they're exaggerating or these people are tools; which is it?

Let's just clarify: This is the domain of prepubescent males and females, (yes.. both), who don't have anything better to do than gossip, brag, play games, and act like twits.

This is why parents should demand more of their kids than sitting in front of a television. Chores, work, school, better grades, physical exercise, etiquette, social activities like family time, reading, eating at the dinner table, doing dishes, taking out the garbage, etc..

Instead, you got kids who go, "yeah, Mom, in a minute," *silently* 'when I finish this game *****.' Or, stuff a pizza pocket in their mouth and go sit in front of the TV wiping their hands on their pants while their Mom cooks a dinner they don't intend to eat. ..or Dad cooks, for those that do.


Not that I'm a parent, but I did grow up once, and not like that thankfully. Nowhere near perfect or properly raised, but not like that. Spoiled rotten little ingrates imo.

This thread is fubar.


..also, I'd just like to note, that the usual, "this thread is now about me and my issues; let me proceed to shove them in your face; give me attention," is still occurring as usual.



Your post is invalid as the average population of EVE is 27. We ARE talking about adult behavior. Adults. Get it ? Probably not.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-11-30 12:27:31 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.


Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.


Err... the average male brain and the average female brain are physically different, thus, the average male and average female don't think alike. If you don't recognize and accept that differences exist, you'll just make the problem worse.

It's like mixing cars and bicycles on the road. Yes, the bicycles have the "right" to use the same roads, however, mixing two tons of steel going 60+ MPH with a few hundred pounds of flesh and aluminum going 10 MPH isn't a wise idea. The speed differential causes congestion and when something goes wrong, the bicyclist is guaranteed to lose. You need to tailor the infrastructure to handle different needs.


The real solution is environment. Women (on average) tend to work and communicate differently then men. Unless you can find a mixed group of mature professionals that can adhere to a commonly accepted workplace standard, then an all female organization (aka dev team) might be the way to go to create more women oriented games. (Which given that females are 50% of the population and that everyone is tech enabled nowadays, it is a huge, untapped market.)

The down side is that the funding (and training and publishing) is controlled by Ye Olde Male Power Structures...



I believe absolutely none of this. Not even the bicycle part. I saw a completely different outcome than what you describe on the streets of San Francisco for 17 years, and you are flat wrong. I'm not even going to start on the rest of it.


You have good reason to not believe it. The differences in male and female physiology are hormonal and physical only - hormones can have an effect on the brain, but the functions of the brain itself do not differ any between genders.

And there is no such thing as a "women-oriented game" except that which is a cultural construct of social expectations of women.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104