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Great Article about Being Female and Gaming

First post
Author
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-11-30 03:29:21 UTC
Jayson Kassis wrote:


On the grand scale, unique individuals like different things. If we were all the same, we wouldn't reproduce and life would be boring.



FYP. While there are studies that indicate certain tendencies that exist for one sex that don't exist for the other, those same studies indicate that this is a direct result of social exclusivity generated by both genders - throughout the decades, men and women have had certain expectations placed on them, that have only really been lifted recently, and in many cases, haven't been lifted at all. These expectations, however, created these trends in the first place, and now we're seeing new trends arise in which gender takes a back seat to how an individual identifies.

I know plenty of women who would rather spend time at the shooting range than in a kitchen, and plenty off men who would prefer to be baking than laying bricks and mortar. There is no "line in the sand" when it comes to what sex trends towards what preferences that isn't created artificially by expectations of gender.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#102 - 2012-11-30 03:30:42 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
Are you people seriously arguing RL gender equality in an internet game...?

What do you think the problem with this is? There can never be gender equality on the internet or any place that is relatively consequence-free to our RL-selves simply due to the fact that we are all hiding behind a bunch of avatars and aliases.

Of course all the guys would jump on a girl in EvE and ask her all kinds of inappropriate questions, because the said female would have little recourse (ignore perhaps, or if the action is persistent and malicious petition/report to GMs). Why? Because we can be anyone and anything online and this anonymity in itself changes the entire concept of our psychology and how we act towards one another.

You will find that the traditional ID - EGO - SUPEREGO hierarchy becomes irrelevant, that is to say that we tend to revert back to being guided by our more primal drives. Higher order concepts tend to be left behind and I am positive that most of us have done this one time or another and some more so than others: how often did you find yourself blowing someone up in EvE just because you wanted them to die... mercy, consideration for that person's feelings... need not apply. Same is relevant towards the relationship between players of same of different sexes. Scams, theft, trolling - most of these things would never occur to us in RL, yet we engage regularly in such practices in EvE.

Gender equality by same rights IS stuck in 1952; hell, take it back to caveman days if you want. Males will always revert to their baser instincts around female gamers and likewise, women gamers can and regularly do use their sex to obtain favours or gain advantages. Unless we are skyping this game, using RL names and RL consequences are applied to our actions, good luck in trying to affect any type of change in EvE or any online game.

Besides, the OP article deals with some serious RL issues of gender inequality in salaries of female employees in the gaming industry as well as misrepresentation of female gamers. I fail to see the relevance to EvE... did you want the HUD to be customisable to pink or something?

Anywho, threads like this tend to be so completely irrelevant and useless to argue that I am not sure why so many people even try… myself exempted, of course, as I bring wisdom to the masses.


Nobody wants a damned pink HUD. And all of your stated reasons for behaviors still do not make them right.

I do not hide who or what I am behind my avatar in any way shape or form. To do so is sad and wrong.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#103 - 2012-11-30 03:33:50 UTC
Jayson Kassis wrote:
. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.


Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#104 - 2012-11-30 03:36:21 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


I know plenty of women who would rather spend time at the shooting range than in a kitchen, and plenty off men who would prefer to be baking than laying bricks and mortar. There is no "line in the sand" when it comes to what sex trends towards what preferences that isn't created artificially by expectations of gender.




The most rabid gamer I know is an 18 y o girl who can't put down Skyrim and has the vastest anime collection I have ever seen.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

stoicfaux
#105 - 2012-11-30 03:48:17 UTC
On a related note, if anyone remembers the game Clive Barker's Undying:

"Originally our hero's name was Magnus Wolfram, a stocky barrel chested man with eccentric clothes and a baldhead and tattoos all over his body. We all thought he was cool, but Clive saw that Magnus as unapproachable and seemingly super human."

"We had this fellow called Magnus. Count Magnus Wolfram. Who was bald, tattoed, looked like a comic book hero. And I got them all in a room, and I said, 'Look, does anyone in this room know a count? No. Does anybody in this room know anybody called Magnus? No. Does anybody really want to be in this guy's skin? Since this is a first person play, why would you want to be in this man's skin? Why would you want to play [as him]?'

And that's how the protagonist became Patrick Galloway.


tl;dr Only you can prevent testosterone poisoning.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2012-11-30 03:50:28 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Not denying that such a thing could have happened, I wouldn't be surprised, but my point is it's not as much of the norm as you might thing.



Whether or not is is the norm, the fact that it even happens once is appaling.

I don't disagree, but let's not pretend that this is exclusive to the CFC.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#107 - 2012-11-30 03:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Not denying that such a thing could have happened, I wouldn't be surprised, but my point is it's not as much of the norm as you might thing.



Whether or not is is the norm, the fact that it even happens once is appaling.

I don't disagree, but let's not pretend that this is exclusive to the CFC.


That certainly is true enough. It was the easiest incident Jester could find by example for his article I guess.

edit: But the CFC does live proudly under it's reputation, by design and intent.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#108 - 2012-11-30 03:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
yet another dbl post. Seems to be common today for some reason.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

stoicfaux
#109 - 2012-11-30 04:01:08 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Jayson Kassis wrote:
. On the grand scale, men and women like different things.


Actually believing this is the heart and soul of the problem.


Err... the average male brain and the average female brain are physically different, thus, the average male and average female don't think alike. If you don't recognize and accept that differences exist, you'll just make the problem worse.

It's like mixing cars and bicycles on the road. Yes, the bicycles have the "right" to use the same roads, however, mixing two tons of steel going 60+ MPH with a few hundred pounds of flesh and aluminum going 10 MPH isn't a wise idea. The speed differential causes congestion and when something goes wrong, the bicyclist is guaranteed to lose. You need to tailor the infrastructure to handle different needs.


The real solution is environment. Women (on average) tend to work and communicate differently then men. Unless you can find a mixed group of mature professionals that can adhere to a commonly accepted workplace standard, then an all female organization (aka dev team) might be the way to go to create more women oriented games. (Which given that females are 50% of the population and that everyone is tech enabled nowadays, it is a huge, untapped market.)

The down side is that the funding (and training and publishing) is controlled by Ye Olde Male Power Structures...

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-11-30 04:02:27 UTC
I apologise, but the following is going to be a little bit of a blog post. I suggest that those of you who are willing to learn something about the way females are treated in regards to the internet read it in full, and check out the links. Those who wish to ignore it, however, should refrain from ignorant commentary. I know it's a tl;dr, but it's an important one.

Some people here may or may not have heard about a video project that Anita Sarkeesian proposed for funding via Kickstarter. It's a cool project looking at the tropes of women used in video games. Here is a video introducing the project.

To the surprise of approximately zero educated bloggers and to the horror of a lot of people who only just now realized How Bad It Is™, the reaction by a great swath of self-proclaimed dudes has been abusive and threatening. Sarkeesian hadn't even started the project yet and the push back to silence her was already tremendous. The YouTube video has had threats and harassing comments made on it, her Wikipedia page has been vandalized repeatedly. She has been verbally assaulted on Twitter, Facebook, in email, and via the Feminist Frequency website.

Many people are unfortunately familiar with this sort of abuse, and there is so much more that goes beyond "just gaming" commentary. Those who claim the internet is "consequence free" are really only thinking about themselves and their own safety, via internet anonymity, from punitive action, but they aren't thinking about the consequences that their actions or words have on the internet in regards to the effects on other people.

There were a fair number of people who wrote on what happened with Sarkeesian's project and her subsequent abuse. It's a point raised by John Walker at RockPaperShotgun that I want to look at:

Quote:
It kind of terrifies me that reporting that Sarkeesian has received multiple threats of **** and death feels like it won’t make a significant impact on the reader. Perhaps that the internet’s more wretched areas are so commonly filled with such threats has normalised our reaction to reports of them. The key to snap out of this, and take it on board, is I think to not read about it as a thing that happened to someone else, but to imagine being the person on the receiving end – to imagine being an individual who is reading person after person saying they will sexually assault or murder you.


The internet is not consequence free, not by any stretch of the imagination. The consequences may not be immediately apparent to the people they have no effect on, but I assure you they exist, and affect the targets of all kinds of hostility. Especially gender hostility.

While some disgruntled commenters may disagree, heh, here is not a "wretched area". It's not just "the internet's more wretched areas" which are filled with such threats. It's areas--just about any site--that have articles that discuss sexism and (gaming, sports, literature, television, pick-a-topic), especially if it is an article written by a woman.

But, really, I want to build on his point of "imagine it's you". See, I am sitting here typing this post and I'm a real person. Really! Shocking, I know. But I'm here on my chair, in my office, my dogs are basking in the shade outside on one of the hottest days I've experienced this summer in Australia, a real place in the real world where I actually have to exist in order to input the letters needed to write this post. I'm a real person doing every day things. And you! You are a real person too, sitting or standing or laying down whereever you are. Neither one of us becomes unfeeling, non-people by virtue of the computer/phone screen - unless you do because you're a sociopath, which isn't a bad thing, I know a few sociopaths, but knowing it is the first step to getting help for it. "The internet" is not, in fact (or not exclusively), a series of tubes filled with pixels (or 1s and 0s). It is actual people writing, reading, reacting, learning, etc... it is a social environment as much as it is a digital one, a tool for communication as much as a global set of cables and servers. The use of a phone or laptop or desktop computing device to interact with some other real person on the other end doesn't magically render anyone a non-person. Most people seem to know this, as many people these days first connect online and later offline for friendship, romance, jobs, selling stuff, looking for classes/activities--and if not, many people seem to get the concept anyway.

Yet the bullshit phrase "it's just the internet" still exists. Not only exists, it is repeated frequently when the topic of abuse and harassment online is brought up. Just check the comments section of any of the articles linked above discussing the reaction to the project for examples.

It's not, in fact, "just the internet". "It" is "just" a genuine person that has received a message that they should die, as painfully as possible, and hopefully someone will be by soon because we know where you live. Perhaps because they made a comment about how women are portrayed in a video game. It is a genuine person, too, who made that threat. Not some abusive robo-troller program. Perhaps that person is serious or perhaps they think it's "funny" to threaten and abuse another person into silence and fear. It's also the realisation of that, that there is an actual person out there threatening you, even wishing your death, that can be the clincher in finding it all if not outright terrifying, at least emotionally exhausting, to deal with.

[to be continued]

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-11-30 04:03:48 UTC
Saying "it's just the internet" enables the abusers and harassers. That phrase is their ally, their justification. It lets them off the hook for behaviour that could be considered criminal if done in person. It shifts the blame to the victim of the abuse by suggesting they just need to, say, "grow a thicker skin" because it's somehow not real because pixels and wifi and anonymous commenting ability. No. That whole line of thinking needs to stop. Now. And anyone perpetuating it needs to take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the way they treat others, on the internet or otherwise, or they are no better than garbage.

[concluded]

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#112 - 2012-11-30 04:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Riot Girl wrote:
I don't know about discrimination, it's never affected me and I've been playing online games since I was 8. Maybe I just don't feel it's a big deal or maybe I just don't put myself in a position where I'm open to it. Maybe I just take it for granted because I often make people really mad.



It's affecting me, but not because I'm subject to it at the moment. This thread is horrifying. ShockedUgh

I just can't begin to define what's wrong with it, in so many areas.

I'll just go back to the OP and deal with that. Nobody should be surprised that prepubescent males that sit at home playing video games act this way. The fact that Devs and, (wtf is a designer anyway?), ..designers act that way is hard to believe. Some.. sure, but a vast majority of them?

I don't get it. Either they're exaggerating or these people are tools; which is it?

Let's just clarify: This is the domain of prepubescent males and females, (yes.. both), who don't have anything better to do than gossip, brag, play games, and act like twits.

This is why parents should demand more of their kids than sitting in front of a television. Chores, work, school, better grades, physical exercise, etiquette, social activities like family time, reading, eating at the dinner table, doing dishes, taking out the garbage, etc..

Instead, you got kids who go, "yeah, Mom, in a minute," *silently* 'when I finish this game *****.' Or, stuff a pizza pocket in their mouth and go sit in front of the TV wiping their hands on their pants while their Mom cooks a dinner they don't intend to eat. ..or Dad cooks, for those that do.


Not that I'm a parent, but I did grow up once, and not like that thankfully. Nowhere near perfect or properly raised, but not like that. Spoiled rotten little ingrates imo.

This thread is fubar.


..also, I'd just like to note, that the usual, "this thread is now about me and my issues; let me proceed to shove them in your face; give me attention," is still occurring as usual.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2012-11-30 05:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Katie Frost
Meryl SinGarda wrote:

I'm just going to stop you right there. Much to your surprise, I think you'll find that human beings inhabit this dang new-fangled vidyagame community.


And if you kept reading beyond that point, you would realise that I never discounted that human beings played this game. I provided justification why aspects of human nature are largely ignored when placed in a social medium of internet gaming. The standard codes of behaviour are simply not followed and that's a basic fact. If we were truly the same on the internet as in RL, this world would be FUBAR.


Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Nobody wants a damned pink HUD. And all of your stated reasons for behaviors still do not make them right.

I do not hide who or what I am behind my avatar in any way shape or form. To do so is sad and wrong.


Well... actually I wanted a pink HUD... my response was a covert Pink HUD proposal to CCP.

Right and wrong on the internet is a blurry line and even less so in an internet game. If you truly follow the same code of ethics in an online internet game as you do in RL, then you are truly an outlier. However, 99.9% of other gamers will do and say things in an online game they would never dream of doing/saying in RL. True nature of immersion and escapism is a powerful drug.

Remiel Pollard wrote:

Saying "it's just the internet" enables the abusers and harassers. That phrase is their ally, their justification. It lets them off the hook for behaviour that could be considered criminal if done in person. It shifts the blame to the victim of the abuse by suggesting they just need to, say, "grow a thicker skin" because it's somehow not real because pixels and wifi and anonymous commenting ability. No. That whole line of thinking needs to stop. Now. And anyone perpetuating it needs to take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the way they treat others, on the internet or otherwise, or they are no better than garbage.


Wishing it doesn't make it so Remiel. Unfortunately, whilst the veil of annonymity and perceived consequence free environment exists, the behaviour will perpetuate. You log-on as this other person, you wreak havoc and salvation is but a 'log-off' button away. The attraction of consequence-free in a world that is anything but is far too attractive. This is why harassment, trolling, racism and ongoing gender inequality on internet will always be rampant.

The only way to really control any of it, is to realise/accept that it is the internet, that these are just pixels and that once you switch the computer off, they have no consequence on your life. I know that it is perhaps shocking, but I will guarantee you, that if you are able to realise this simple fact, it really no longer matters and you no longer enable, but disable abusers and harassers - which is why I am questioning the existence of this topic in the first place. Threads like this, that prove to others that they can indeed get a rise out of people is what truly fuels the ongoing propagation of the same behaviour that the thread is trying to address.

Consider the OP – the myriad of responses he made since the first post had probably prompted several readers and subsequent posters to troll him. In effect he is enabling and enforcing the same type of behaviour he is trying to prevent and/or address – whether consciously or not. I am sure he will vehemently disagree with this and continue reinforcing the validity of his argument, but the more people read his staunch stance, the more they will gravitate in the opposite direction proliferating what he wishes to curb.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2012-11-30 05:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Katie Frost wrote:


Remiel Pollard wrote:

Saying "it's just the internet" enables the abusers and harassers. That phrase is their ally, their justification. It lets them off the hook for behaviour that could be considered criminal if done in person. It shifts the blame to the victim of the abuse by suggesting they just need to, say, "grow a thicker skin" because it's somehow not real because pixels and wifi and anonymous commenting ability. No. That whole line of thinking needs to stop. Now. And anyone perpetuating it needs to take a look at themselves and take some responsibility for the way they treat others, on the internet or otherwise, or they are no better than garbage.


Wishing it doesn't make it so Remiel. Unfortunately, whilst the veil of annonymity and perceived consequence free environment exists, the behaviour will perpetuate. You log-on as this other person, you wreak havoc and salvation is but a 'log-off' button away. The attraction of consequence-free in a world that is anything but is far too attractive. This is why harassment, trolling, racism and ongoing gender inequality on internet will always be rampant.


It's still just an excuse. It doesn't make the behaviour any less wrong. It doesn't make those that perpetuate the behaviour any less garbage. The medium of communication is not an excuse for poor communication.

Quote:
The only way to really control any of it, is to realise/accept that it is the internet, that these are just pixels and that once you switch the computer off, they have no consequence on your life.

"Just pixels" is just another excuse for crappy behaviour. It doesn't matter if you think it's "consequence free", it's still just an excuse, and crappy behaviour on the internet is still crappy behaviour.

Quote:
I know that it is perhaps shocking, but I will guarantee you, that if you are able to realise this simple fact, it really no longer matters and you no longer enable, but disable abusers and harassers - which is why I am questioning the existence of this topic in the first place. Threads like this, that prove to others that they can indeed get a rise out of people is what truly fuels the ongoing propagation of the same behaviour that the thread is trying to address.


Threads like this raise awareness of a problem. It is not the people who try to raise awareness of the problem that perpetuate the problem, it is the people who create the problem that needs to be discussed. The old adage of "don't feed the troll" only applies when the troll is actually harmless - people who create an environment of social exclusivity, even if it's "just the internet", may be getting a rise out of being discussed, but that is not why they are discussed, or why threads like this exist. IMHO, they are sick individuals, more often than not, that need help. Especially if this is what they do for their personal entertainment.

Quote:
Consider the OP – the myriad of responses he made since the first post had probably prompted several readers and subsequent posters to troll him. In effect he is enabling and enforcing the same type of behaviour he is trying to prevent and/or address – whether consciously or not. I am sure he will vehemently disagree with this and continue reinforcing the validity of his argument, but the more people read his staunch stance, the more they will gravitate in the opposite direction proliferating what he wishes to curb.


This is the problem - you think the OP is enabling, and therefore causing, people to troll him. You're wrong - the people trolling him are making a conscious choice to do so. They are the problem, not the OP. And all you are doing is perpetuating this myth that the internet suddenly makes what would normally be considered wrong something otherwise. This is absolutely not the case.

Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.

I may log in as a character in this game, but there is still a real person sitting on the other side of that character, and assuming that getting on the internet suddenly makes one fair game for any kind of treatment whatsoever is a ridiculous notion perpetuated by ignorant, selfish and possibly emotionally damaged and angry preteens, or even adults, who take it upon themselves to enforce their own misery on everyone else instead of doing something about it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#115 - 2012-11-30 05:53:08 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
Meryl SinGarda wrote:

I'm just going to stop you right there. Much to your surprise, I think you'll find that human beings inhabit this dang new-fangled vidyagame community.


And if you kept reading beyond that point...




I would have had an aneurysm.

Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#116 - 2012-11-30 05:56:00 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Meryl SinGarda wrote:
You know I still think it's crazy that a handful of people meander into a thread, mostly about something they've never experienced, just to share an irrelevant opinion or justify something that a decent human being wouldn't be okay with. Not just this thread, any thread that doesn't agree with the straight white male privilege.

Meaning that everything's mostly okay for you, so you don't feel any empathy for those who have less or aren't as fortunate. And you'll fight tooth and nail to keep things from shifting out of your favor.

Kinda the way the goons abhor mining or bittervets detest most WiS aspects of EVE.


...And the way certain male members of a certain American political party hate women, as we so abhorrently learned this last campaign season.


So I wasn't the only one who noticed that, huh? :p
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2012-11-30 06:05:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

It's still just an excuse. It doesn't make the behaviour any less wrong. It doesn't make those that perpetuate the behaviour any less garbage. The medium of communication is not an excuse for poor communication.


We aren't disagreeing there... but one of us is realistic, while the other appears to be crusading a lost cause. Unless you are talking about redesigning the internet in some shape or form, or rewiring the human brain, I fail to see how calling anyone garbage will address this issue in any shape or form. I gave you the only effective means of combating this issue - de-invest and realise that the current environment on the internet is such as it is.

Remiel Pollard wrote:

"Just pixels" is just another excuse for crappy behaviour. It doesn't matter if you think it's "consequence free", it's still just an excuse, and crappy behaviour on the internet is still crappy behaviour.


Oh but it's a damn good excuse though. RL codes of ethics and behaviour simply do not apply on the internet in its current form, whether we like it or not. If they did, these issues wouldn't exist in the first place and the internet would be a utopia of gender equality and fairness like RL...

Oh wait...

Remiel Pollard wrote:

Threads like this raise awareness of a problem. It is not the people who try to raise awareness of the problem that perpetuate the problem, it is the people who create the problem that needs to be discussed. The old adage of "don't feed the troll" only applies when the troll is actually harmless - people who create an environment of social exclusivity, even if it's "just the internet", may be getting a rise out of being discussed, but that is not why they are discussed, or why threads like this exist. IMHO, they are sick individuals, more often than not, that need help. Especially if this is what they do for their personal entertainment.


That's the old chicken or the egg argument. Would trolls exist if there was nothing to troll? You can look at it either way but I would argue that the internet is even more devoid of acceptable social norms than RL, so any RL issue would be amplified on the internet significantly and cause trolling. Why you would want to cause that effect is beyond me. "Raising awareness"? Do it where it actually counts, which is what makes this thread even more trivial. At best this topic will spawn some trolls and then get lost in the archives of EvE Online Forums. What was the point to begin with? Spawning trolls...

Remiel Pollard wrote:

This is the problem - you think the OP is enabling, and therefore causing, people to troll him. You're wrong - the people trolling him are making a conscious choice to do so. They are the problem, not the OP. And all you are doing is perpetuating this myth that the internet suddenly makes what would normally be considered wrong something otherwise. This is absolutely not the case.


I don't think the OP is enabling, I know that he is. Go ahead and count the troll responses in this thread. To play with words a bit: OP has enabled these people to make the choice to troll him. In the absence of this topic, the trolls would not have a stage or a voice. That is a simple fact.

Remiel Pollard wrote:

Gender equality in gaming, and on the internet, are a problem, and you can ignore it and/or make excuses for it, or you can help fight the problem by, at the very least, not ignoring it or making excuses for it.


I agree that it is a problem. I also think that it's a problem in many industries in RL, in 3rd world countries, in the Middle East... In my personal opinion, I think it's absolutely moronic to argue about RL issues on an internet gaming forum and expect anything but trolling.
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#118 - 2012-11-30 06:08:59 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
[quote=Remiel Pollard]
...it's absolutely moronic to argue about RL issues on an internet gaming forum and expect anything but trolling.


That's strange, because I don't really see a lot of trolling in this thread, amazingly enough. Issues will remain issues until we stop ignoring them.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2012-11-30 06:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Quote:
There's far too much sexist crap in both real life and the virtual world that makes me ashamed of being a man.

I don't know if I agree all the time Chirrba; I don't mind sexism in a lot of cases. I certainly don't want my husband to start acting like Pat, devoid of masculinity (or femininity for that matter). It's gender discrinimation over things that are not dictated by gender that bothers me. Example: discrimination from promotion in the workplace based on gender. On the other hand, I do not want to use the mens restroom.. I don't believe women should be allowed in the men's locker room after a game even if they are reporters.. if there is a men's golf club, women should not be allowed in unless they change the charter to include women. The same goes for womens sport's. Sexism is part of all of our lives and not necessarily a bad part. Don't be sucked into pandering to us just because some politican trying to win reelection said "there is a war on women"; think for yourself.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2012-11-30 06:19:44 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:

...but one of us is realistic, while the other appears to be crusading a lost cause.


There is a difference between "giving up" and "being realistic", and a cause is only lost when people STOP fighting for it.

Quote:
I gave you the only effective means of combating this issue - de-invest and realise that the current environment on the internet is such as it is.


On the contrary. If people choose to abuse their internet anonymity in order to perpetuate this behaviour, then this behaviour can be criminalised, as it is in reality, and everyone will suffer when our rights to internet anonymity are voided by the few morons who choose to abuse it.

Quote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:

"Just pixels" is just another excuse for crappy behaviour. It doesn't matter if you think it's "consequence free", it's still just an excuse, and crappy behaviour on the internet is still crappy behaviour.


Oh but it's a damn good excuse though. RL codes of ethics and behaviour simply do not apply on the internet in its current form, whether we like it or not. If they did, these issues wouldn't exist in the first place and the internet would be a utopia of gender equality and fairness like RL...

Oh wait...


No it's not, it's a lousy excuse. And it's still just an excuse all the same, because there is NO justification for foul behaviour, be it on the internet or elsewhere. RL codes of ethics apply everywhere, because guess what? The internet is just as much real life as everywhere else is. You think that just because it goes through a computer it's somehow some psuedo-life that doesn't matter, where there are no real people on the other side of their computers? This is the kind of delusion that allows such behaviour to exist. And by doing nothing about it, and even trying to justify it, you are just as bad.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104