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The Future of W-space?
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Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-11-30 16:53:10 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I think future of W-space depends on the way the new POS system is going to be implemented.

The way I see it at the moment is:

If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it.

Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract.

W-space corporations will adapt and start roaming null and low sec more. They will use their wspace systems as base of ops for isk making and ship storage.



Sadly I concur, if the FF is gone and we can't d-scan to gather intel it will mean having eyes on each POS in order to see what is "berthed" at it. Then there is also talk about having multiple POSes on grid, and having the ability to drop em not just on moons but also in deadspace. As I see it, opening into the system, dropping probes to find the enemy POS "city" and then getting eyes on every POS will be detrimental to w-space and the "unknown / unexpected" factors it contributes to the EvE experience.
lordjanuss
Astrosphere
Fjordariket
#22 - 2012-11-30 18:12:18 UTC
CCP was playing with the thought about adding more WH at fanfest 2012, I think that would be interesting, ( 7-9) with Cap sleepers . and we have not seen sleepers attacking gas ops and bashing POS , I think that would be fun.Big smileBig smileBig smile
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-11-30 18:18:55 UTC
Gnaw LF wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
I think future of W-space depends on the way the new POS system is going to be implemented.

The way I see it at the moment is:

If it is going to be ministation with no ability to collect information from Dscan then most of thrill of wspace will be gone. There will be occasional POS (cough station) camps. Some capital or tengu ganks but thats about it.

Small/medium fleet fights will be mostly gone due to inability to collect intel and react or counteract.

W-space corporations will adapt and start roaming null and low sec more. They will use their wspace systems as base of ops for isk making and ship storage.



Sadly I concur, if the FF is gone and we can't d-scan to gather intel it will mean having eyes on each POS in order to see what is "berthed" at it. Then there is also talk about having multiple POSes on grid, and having the ability to drop em not just on moons but also in deadspace. As I see it, opening into the system, dropping probes to find the enemy POS "city" and then getting eyes on every POS will be detrimental to w-space and the "unknown / unexpected" factors it contributes to the EvE experience.



Imagine having several POS on grid fully manned with gunners.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#24 - 2012-11-30 19:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
In my corporation we all have the feeling that CCP is considering wormholers as the "bad little duck" of EvE population.


  • No Dust for temperates in wormholes.
  • No "strategic" in the word "strategic cruisers" in wormholes. (due to inability to switch subsystems... Come on, it's been more than THREE YEARS now, if there were truly a will to change this from CCP, they would have already done it)
  • No moon mining. (Despite the fact that logistically it's harder for wormholers to maintain a lot of POSes active in the same system. So, it would be quite logical to see moon mining in wormholes, and better moons than in regular null sec.)
  • No sovereignty in wormholes. (Despite the fact that the feeling of "controlling" a system is much more pronounced in a wormhole than in any other null sec system)
  • No logistical help for mining in wormholes. No instant respawn of belts in wormholes as opposed to null sec gravi.
    • 50% of new modules released are battleship sized. Battleships are commonly known to be a pain in... (some part of your body) due to mass restrictions for low and mid-classes wormholes.


So yeah, I will proclaim loudly that, in my opinion, CCP is considering wormholes as a mistake of the past, and is not planning anything that would only affect wormhole life. Except nerfs eventually, of course.
Despite the fact that it is one of the rare remaining places were you can find some true PvP, the same PvP that CCP is so proud to stream during tournaments. The only PvP were skill matters more than ressources, and were there is no possible surprise hotdrop, boring weak NPCs or pvp-killing local.

I would truly appreciate to read someone showing me an opposite vision and breaking my arguments... But I doubt to see anything like that, sadly.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Fatyn
AQUILA INC
#25 - 2012-11-30 20:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Fatyn
Wormholes are one of the least broken parts of the game. Sure you could add sleeper content, but who the **** really cares about PVE anyway. Wormhole goo of all kinds serves to build tech 3 ships, tech 3 ships are popular and get blown up often, everybody wins.

POS mechanics on the other hand are one of the most totally ******** parts of the game, and are soon going to be totally obliterated and worked up from scratch. When the patch comes when you move into your new modular, customisable, slick interface exotic dancer wormhole brothel, you are going forget the old ****** POS system ever existed. The whole d-scan / docking / intel gathering complaints are based on partial info, murky rumours and assuming CCP are the worst. Be my guest and be vocal about it to Two-Step, but the world is not going to end.

Strategic cruisers not re-fitting in wormholes is however terrible and CCP should be mildly embarassed. I don't expect a fix until the POS patch.

Anybody else whining about no love for wormholes?

* No dust?
* No MOON MINING?
* No Sov?
* No help for miners??

Oh dear. --> Z142
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-11-30 20:44:15 UTC
Fatyn wrote:
When the patch comes when you move into your new modular, customisable, slick interface exotic dancer wormhole brothel, you are going forget the old ****** POS system ever existed.



Yes please.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-11-30 21:16:50 UTC
Wow. I don't think I have quite seen a post more OFF the mark than this one. WH's are one of the best designed areas of space IMO

Keep in mind as you read that Wormhole space was DESIGNED to be a harsh environment. It was DESIGNED specifically to NOT cater to easy long term habitation. Within that design it works quite well.

Altrue wrote:
  • No Dust for temperates in wormholes.

    • Who cares? But more importantly, how would it even make sense. The planets being used are only in FW space, where it makes sense that Dust players will be fighting the faction wars. How in the EVE universe would you explain the DUST players even getting onto those worlds?

    Altrue wrote:
  • No "strategic" in the word "strategic cruisers" in wormholes. (due to inability to switch subsystems... Come on, it's been more than THREE YEARS now, if there were truly a will to change this from CCP, they would have already done it)

    • For one, this isn't a wormhole issue. It's a POS refitting issue. So it does not help your argument that WH space is broken. Every player trying to live in the Great wildlands for example has the same issue, as there are almost no stations in that region of 0.0 (if any, I forget at the moment) Or talk to all of the other 0.0 inhabitants that are nowhere near a friendly station or outpost.



    Altrue wrote:

    1. No moon mining. (Despite the fact that logistically it's harder for wormholers to maintain a lot of POSes active in the same system. So, it would be quite logical to see moon mining in wormholes, and better moons than in regular null sec.)

    2. No sovereignty in wormholes. (Despite the fact that the feeling of "controlling" a system is much more pronounced in a wormhole than in any other null sec system)

    3. No logistical help for mining in wormholes. No instant respawn of belts in wormholes as opposed to null sec gravi.



    1. Thank god. what WH space doesn't need is the huge 0.0 alliances eyeing up WH space. WH space is profitable enough without them.

    2. You answer the question there. Wormhole space doesn't NEED SOV. How would the mechanics even work? Let's see I need to online SBU at 50% of the gates....oh wait. Wormholes don't need the broken SOV mechanics. WH mechanics make it so little guys can actually stake out their claim and even sometimes have the hope of defending it.

    3. Read the top comment. WH's are designed to be hard. With that in mind working as intended. You wanna mine all day, go rent a system in 0.0.


    Altrue wrote:
    50% of new modules released are battleship sized. Battleships are commonly known to be a pain in... (some part of your body) due to mass restrictions for low and mid-classes wormholes.



    This is just a reach to try and link new BS mods as a slap to WH's? I can think of plenty of fun ways to use that MJD in a WH fight already.



    Boo, can only quote 5 times in a single post... Had to consolidate.
    Fillory
    GunWorks
    Red Coat Conspiracy
    #28 - 2012-11-30 23:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fillory
    Derath Ellecon wrote:
    Opposite vision that broke all Altrue's arguements...



    Bravo, and well said.

    Fillory - Queen of [s]the Red Coat Conspiracy[/s] a dead, formerly bad alliance
    smokeAjoint
    Catch And Release Privateering
    #29 - 2012-12-01 02:41:28 UTC
    Fillory wrote:
    Derath Ellecon wrote:
    Opposite vision that broke all Altrue's arguements...



    Bravo, and well said.



    QFT

    ** legalize it**
    Altrue
    Exploration Frontier inc
    Tactical-Retreat
    #30 - 2012-12-02 12:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
    Derath Ellecon wrote:
    Opposite vision of mine, using the fact that wormhole life is designed to be harsh as an excuse for broken mechanisms.


    Even if I do recognize foundations and logic in your arguments, my point remains the same : No improvements for us.

    Yes wormholes were designed to be rude, but is it a reason to prevent gravi from respawning or to make it impossible to move the ore out of it without a rorqual ? In my opinion, absence of local makes mining conditions hard enough, don't you think ?

    Yes, it's not easy to switch subsystems in regular 0.0 as well... But you know, there is people out there that are out of wormholes AND out of 0.0. The fact that you're experiencing the same problem, as a justification of it's normality, is then irrelevant.
    My argument was to demonstrate that T3's are broken even in the place they are supposed to be produced. It's as paradoxical as if you were saying that ORE ships were not adapted for mining.

    About sov : Indeed my point was implying that sov mechanisms would require to be adapted, it's common sense... For example, I'm not for super capitals productions inside wormholes. It has already been pointed that defenders are advantaged enough in many situations. Same thing for sov capture conditions, SBU wouldn't be usable.
    But don't you think that wormholers are more attached to their system than would pilots in a 0.0 alliance ? Is it that unatural to ask for a mechanism rewarding long-term occupation and formalizing sov in wormholes ?


    So, YES some problems that I'm raising are not exclusive to wormholes, but they remain problems that are affecting wormhole life stronger than any other life style in EvE.
    In addition, the initial topic was about "The future of W-space.", I'm demonstrating that issues with wormholes are numerous and aberrant. Even if everything in your answer was right, it would simply prove that wormholes are not the only place were there is a lack of perspectives... But my point would still remain perfectly intact : No one can say that wormholes have dev's attention.

    PS : We do enjoy wormholes life, and you're right, it's a well-designed environment... in some points :)
    But others are broken, especially when you take a look at the risk / reward factor (one base element of EvE) compared to, for example, moons in 0.0 making dozens of billions a month. And despite all the love that I have for wormhole life, and the fact that I would unsub if it wasn't possible anymore to live in wormholes...Despite that, it's clear that on the long term, if a major part of all implementations done by CCP were excluding wormholes, we would have a problem.

    Signature Tanking Best Tanking

    [Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

    Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
    Trinkets friend
    Sudden Buggery
    Sending Thots And Players
    #31 - 2012-12-02 23:48:18 UTC
    Q: Who is Exploration Frontier Inc?
    A:


    Back on topic.

    I think the future of w-space will be as much affected by the T3 nerfs/changes and POS changes as it will by anything else. I'm not talking about changes to the T3 OGBs, which honestly are more a lowsec "solo" option than something you see habitually in wormholes. Changes to T3 capabilities will affect wormholes much more disproportionately than other facets of the game.

    Altrue is right - 50% of the new modules are BS modules, because BS's are basically obsoleted by everything and a mostly ineffectual punchinbag in k-space. All the new BS modules? Totally irrelevant to wormholes. No one uses anything except Bhaalgorns when the chips are down, and hardly anyone uses BS's anyway (except maybe, shield RR domi balls vs ECM POS's). Altrue is wrong, however, that this is a slap in the face for wormholers. The problem with BS's is manifold, but the problem with BS's for wormholes is mass, not any of the other myriad of afflictions the class suffers and unless there's a way of adjusting down BS mass with a module, it won't change anything.

    Removing the POS shield and making POS's dockable...I think it will really make wormholes worthless to roam and lurk. Right now you get to see people going about their daily chores inside a forcefield. You watch them bounce of CHA's mid-align and chortle at their misfortune. You watch them turning on their intensive refining array and feverishly try to ninja scan the grav sites in system while they are busy, ahead of them deploying their mining fleets. It is a kind of voyeurism.

    Remove the forcefield, and just have a box sitting in space, however pretty that box is, with no Local and no way of knowing if anyone is inside and active....boring. If you don't see anyone on d-scan, why the hell would you sit outside their POS for 3 hours waiting for them? It'll be back to pinging wormnav waiting for the ratting line to jump up, and then you re-enter the wormhole and attempt a gank.

    This will kill off lurking and roaming in w-space entirely, simply from the massive boredom one would have to endure to maybe see someone sign on. Maybe. It could be very, very bad. And I'm not even worrying about how screwed the POS owner's intel will be (log an alt at a safespot, sorted).

    ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
    Messoroz
    AQUILA INC
    #32 - 2012-12-03 08:29:55 UTC
    BLOBS EVERYWHERE.
    Daniel Plain
    Doomheim
    #33 - 2012-12-03 12:16:42 UTC
    Trinkets friend wrote:
    Q: Who is Exploration Frontier Inc?
    A:


    Back on topic.

    I think the future of w-space will be as much affected by the T3 nerfs/changes and POS changes as it will by anything else. I'm not talking about changes to the T3 OGBs, which honestly are more a lowsec "solo" option than something you see habitually in wormholes. Changes to T3 capabilities will affect wormholes much more disproportionately than other facets of the game.

    Altrue is right - 50% of the new modules are BS modules, because BS's are basically obsoleted by everything and a mostly ineffectual punchinbag in k-space. All the new BS modules? Totally irrelevant to wormholes. No one uses anything except Bhaalgorns when the chips are down, and hardly anyone uses BS's anyway (except maybe, shield RR domi balls vs ECM POS's). Altrue is wrong, however, that this is a slap in the face for wormholers. The problem with BS's is manifold, but the problem with BS's for wormholes is mass, not any of the other myriad of afflictions the class suffers and unless there's a way of adjusting down BS mass with a module, it won't change anything.

    Removing the POS shield and making POS's dockable...I think it will really make wormholes worthless to roam and lurk. Right now you get to see people going about their daily chores inside a forcefield. You watch them bounce of CHA's mid-align and chortle at their misfortune. You watch them turning on their intensive refining array and feverishly try to ninja scan the grav sites in system while they are busy, ahead of them deploying their mining fleets. It is a kind of voyeurism.

    Remove the forcefield, and just have a box sitting in space, however pretty that box is, with no Local and no way of knowing if anyone is inside and active....boring. If you don't see anyone on d-scan, why the hell would you sit outside their POS for 3 hours waiting for them? It'll be back to pinging wormnav waiting for the ratting line to jump up, and then you re-enter the wormhole and attempt a gank.

    This will kill off lurking and roaming in w-space entirely, simply from the massive boredom one would have to endure to maybe see someone sign on. Maybe. It could be very, very bad. And I'm not even worrying about how screwed the POS owner's intel will be (log an alt at a safespot, sorted).


    i faintly remember some ccp official saying something about 'docking' ships onto the new posses rather than inside them, so that you can still see them from the outside. not sure where i got this from though and cba to look it up.

    I should buy an Ishtar.
    Trinkets friend
    Sudden Buggery
    Sending Thots And Players
    #34 - 2012-12-03 23:00:10 UTC
    Christ, that's equally lame. Any wormhole POS would be a bloody katamari of ships all glued to the outside of a structure.

    ~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
    Messoroz
    AQUILA INC
    #35 - 2012-12-03 23:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
    Altrue wrote:
    In my corporation we all have the feeling that CCP is considering wormholers as the "bad little duck" of EvE population.


    • No Dust for temperates in wormholes.
    • No "strategic" in the word "strategic cruisers" in wormholes. (due to inability to switch subsystems... Come on, it's been more than THREE YEARS now, if there were truly a will to change this from CCP, they would have already done it)
    • No moon mining. (Despite the fact that logistically it's harder for wormholers to maintain a lot of POSes active in the same system. So, it would be quite logical to see moon mining in wormholes, and better moons than in regular null sec.)
    • No sovereignty in wormholes. (Despite the fact that the feeling of "controlling" a system is much more pronounced in a wormhole than in any other null sec system)
    • No logistical help for mining in wormholes. No instant respawn of belts in wormholes as opposed to null sec gravi.
      • 50% of new modules released are battleship sized. Battleships are commonly known to be a pain in... (some part of your body) due to mass restrictions for low and mid-classes wormholes.


    So yeah, I will proclaim loudly that, in my opinion, CCP is considering wormholes as a mistake of the past, and is not planning anything that would only affect wormhole life. Except nerfs eventually, of course.
    Despite the fact that it is one of the rare remaining places were you can find some true PvP, the same PvP that CCP is so proud to stream during tournaments. The only PvP were skill matters more than ressources, and were there is no possible surprise hotdrop, boring weak NPCs or pvp-killing local.

    I would truly appreciate to read someone showing me an opposite vision and breaking my arguments... But I doubt to see anything like that, sadly.


    1. DUST is currently meant to enhance faction and sov warfare. There is no reason for it in wormholes. Heck, there is no storyline to justify it either.
    2. More than likely overdue but coming in the POS revamps, they have issues with old legacy code.
    3. Moon mining was intended to enhance sov, giving a reason to hold it. There is no sov in wspace. Also, one could say because wspace systems are located in other galaxies than New Eden, the moons do not contain the same useful minerals to mine.
    4. There is no sov because CONCORD is the entity that reconizes sov in kspace. CONCORD does not do any work in wspace. CONCORD Is also the reason every kspace system has local.
    5. I don't get this? THIS IS THE FREAKING DESIGN OF WORMHOLE SYSTEMS.
    6. 50% of new modules are battleship sized TO REBALANCE AND REFRESH THE BATTLESHIP CLASS YOU INEPT FROG.

    You have enough logical fallacies in your post that you should go spare the human race your stupid. I bet you think that when an ambulance cuts in front of you with lights blaring on a road that its unfair and they should stay in line.
    lordjanuss
    Astrosphere
    Fjordariket
    #36 - 2012-12-04 10:46:20 UTC
    DUST is currently meant to enhance faction and sov warfare. There is no reason for it in wormholes. Heck, there is no storyline to justify it either.

    This is not correct, at fanfest at the Dust 514 summit Devs talked about dust starting in high sec and ending in WH , and the merc tecnology is found in a sleeper site as you see in the trailer from fanfest 2012.

    So you never now what is going to happend. SmileSmile
    Jack Miton
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #37 - 2012-12-04 12:09:17 UTC
    I agree with what Chitsa said, it's going to come down to what they do with the POS rework.
    Quite frankly, everything I have read about it so far functionality wise, I have disliked.

    The proposed changes to POS ownership on the personal level is the only good thing that comes to mind.
    The removal of forcefield being the worst. This single change is almost certain to ruin the way POSs work.

    PS: Altrue, WTF are you babbling about?

    There is no Bob.

    Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

    Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
    Ethan Revenant
    Adhocracy Incorporated
    Adhocracy
    #38 - 2012-12-04 14:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ethan Revenant
    Fatyn wrote:
    When the patch comes when you move into your new modular, customisable, slick interface exotic dancer wormhole brothel, you are going forget the old ****** POS system ever existed.


    If this is not what we get out of new POSes, there is nothing just in this world. I just hope they release the devblog in time for us to robble constructively instead of impotently weeping internet tears.
    Amitious Turkey
    10kSubnautic
    Warriors of the Blood God
    #39 - 2012-12-04 19:43:10 UTC
    Trinkets friend wrote:


    This will kill off lurking and roaming in w-space entirely, simply from the massive boredom one would have to endure to maybe see someone sign on. Maybe. It could be very, very bad. And I'm not even worrying about how screwed the POS owner's intel will be (log an alt at a safespot, sorted).



    I'm a lurker. I do not approve of this possible change. I don't have the time or desire to sit around waiting.

    I like to lick things.

    Haunting the forums since 03.
    Bloody Wench
    #40 - 2012-12-05 11:05:56 UTC
    In my delusional dream world you'd be able to build Motherships in WH space..and sure Titans if you wanted. But they could never leave.

    Requiring Sov to anchor the structure is kinda stupid, and something I'd like to see removed.

    Maybe if they do introduce Class 7-9 holes you could build Motherships in there.

    That would be awesome.

    [u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
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